What's the "best" humic acid supplement?

I myself am no a fan of dry humic.. very easily turns into a mess the second it's exposed to high moisture.. also the method I use, I can have something into a solution in 3 seconds. can anyone say that about there dry humic? no clean up?

second about the bottles again. sometimes it is easier for someone to buy something, then mix together 5 products, or want pounds of bags laying around.. there's many growers out there who grow small time, and nutrients last them a very long time, and there is users who could dump a 5 liter bottle into there reservoir at once.

look at liquid karma. it has humic / fulvic / surffacant ( yucca ) / aloe / seaweed / aminos / vitamins / some steeped plants ( aqueous extracts of etiolated wheat coleoptiles, and Zea mays ) / carbs / something akin to azomite / fish meal / composted seabird guano / spirulina ..... diluted or not, that's really impressive! also isn't that the point of a company, to pay for service ( them mixing them bottle with stuff you would never be able to mix that much on your own ). when did business turn into paying for what they got it for? also I would have to say, basically how much you can grow with a couple bottles, what $30-100, would grow you a pound, possibly more depending on media used, technique, strain requirement.. you have A POUND of pot, and people still have something to complain about........ shit, I guess we better start rounding up people buying milk? eggs? cheese? veggies?

I'm all for, if it's cheap great.. trust me, I don't have stacks of bottles, using 20 additives, that's not me.. but I'm all about being laid back, and guess what, that's what a bottle is.... some people would probably be surprised how I live, but I keep it balanced, that's what I found is key in life.. and one of those ways is using bottles to counter act my other side... I guess we can't all do the same thing.. and I can say is for everyone to relax, and let all comers of bottles "organic" nutes join the ship. isn't it better buying a bottle of watered down humic then salt ferts?

organics isn't going to be won in a day, but honestly I look back from 7 years ago, and there is alot more support for organics now then there was. that seems like progress to me.

when you get to a point of actually having money, you find you actually don't even talk about money..... you talk about experiences / end results . Isn't life to short to care about money?

IMO the best humic product is HumaCarb from Advancing Eco-Agriculture. They use a liquid micronizing process and the only one that I'm aware of that does so. The particles end up being nano in size. The process also liberates fulvic acid.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No farmer under real market conditions would pay what the hydro-store customers pay.[/FONT]

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Not even close. Farmers buy in bulk sacks for dried products, usually by the pallet, or 250 gallon totes of liquid.

Advancing Eco-Agriculture caters to large scale agriculture and not people growing in 200 gallon Smart Pots. We're talking about 10's of thousands of acres. Cannabis is just a blip on the map regarding total acres grown. While cannabis may be a high value crop total acreage is actually minimal.

Just want to add that HumaCarb is GREAT is sandy soil situations where some in the country deal with. Something like HumiSolve would fail miserably in a similar application.

OptionDork said:

IMO the best humic product is HumaCarb from Advancing Eco-Agriculture. They use a liquid micronizing process and the only one that I'm aware of that does so. The particles end up being nano in size. The process also liberates fulvic acid.

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This doesn't make sense to me. Isn't the main difference between humic and fulvic acids the molecule size?

habeeb said:

I myself am no a fan of dry humic.. very easily turns into a mess the second it's exposed to high moisture.. also the method I use, I can have something into a solution in 3 seconds. can anyone say that about there dry humic? no clean up?

second about the bottles again. sometimes it is easier for someone to buy something, then mix together 5 products, or want pounds of bags laying around.. there's many growers out there who grow small time, and nutrients last them a very long time, and there is users who could dump a 5 liter bottle into there reservoir at once.

look at liquid karma. it has humic / fulvic / surffacant ( yucca ) / aloe / seaweed / aminos / vitamins / some steeped plants ( aqueous extracts of etiolated wheat coleoptiles, and Zea mays ) / carbs / something akin to azomite / fish meal / composted seabird guano / spirulina ..... diluted or not, that's really impressive! also isn't that the point of a company, to pay for service ( them mixing them bottle with stuff you would never be able to mix that much on your own ). when did business turn into paying for what they got it for? also I would have to say, basically how much you can grow with a couple bottles, what $30-100, would grow you a pound, possibly more depending on media used, technique, strain requirement.. you have A POUND of pot, and people still have something to complain about........ shit, I guess we better start rounding up people buying milk? eggs? cheese? veggies?

I'm all for, if it's cheap great.. trust me, I don't have stacks of bottles, using 20 additives, that's not me.. but I'm all about being laid back, and guess what, that's what a bottle is.... some people would probably be surprised how I live, but I keep it balanced, that's what I found is key in life.. and one of those ways is using bottles to counter act my other side... I guess we can't all do the same thing.. and I can say is for everyone to relax, and let all comers of bottles "organic" nutes join the ship. isn't it better buying a bottle of watered down humic then salt ferts?

organics isn't going to be won in a day, but honestly I look back from 7 years ago, and there is alot more support for organics now then there was. that seems like progress to me.

when you get to a point of actually having money, you find you actually don't even talk about money..... you talk about experiences / end results . Isn't life to short to care about money?

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Good points, however I don't think that Liquid Karma is the BEST humic product on the market. I don't really like supporting these hydro nute companies anyway. I think the best would be a chelated humic acid product like the TM-7 or LC-10+7. These contain chelated micro-nutrients in the proper amounts for plant uptake. Seems like a no-brainer in that regard, though they are certainly not the cheapest.

Until Seagreen tells me exactly what's in their product, I couldn't recommend it. Besides, what product is worth $330/gal? Just because something is expensive, doesn't mean it's valuable. I think growers see the high price tag and feel like they have to have it cause it must be the best. They also get caught up in a placebo effect, attributing any plant growth on the expensive product, without actually using any controls to determine efficacy.

CT Guy said:

This doesn't make sense to me. Isn't the main difference between humic and fulvic acids the molecule size?

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Not only that but they are both "nano" sized to begin with. It is already broken down to its smallest size...pretty much the definition of humus.

Those guys micronize carbonates which allows the use of organic Ca and P elements and that is a nice product for sure. But my guess is their humic is just New Mexico leonardite.

Again...I find the Ferti Organic stuff to be genius. And I have used the TM7

milkyjoe said:

Not only that but they are both "nano" sized to begin with. It is already broken down to its smallest size...pretty much the definition of humus.

Those guys micronize carbonates which allows the use of organic Ca and P elements and that is a nice product for sure. But my guess is their humic is just New Mexico leonardite.

Again...I find the Ferti Organic stuff to be genius. And I have used the TM7

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No your guess is wrong. Advancing Eco-Agriculture (AEA) uses material from North Dakota. Dr. Faust at BioAg uses material from New Mexico. I've sat with Dr. Faust at is office in OR and have spent a lot of time on the phone with John Kempf of AEA and also Lawrence Mayhew who spearheaded the effort to create an AOAC approved method for verifying fulvic acid content of an agriculture grade product.

Most companies micronize using a dry method and with something like a humate it's like trying to work with smoke at the micron level and that's where wet milling comes into play.

FWIW field trials of HumaCarb performed better than typical acid/alkaline humate extracts.

Milky if it's already nano sized why do they do extracts? It's called availability.

Here's the thing...ANY company making claims of fulvic acid content are simply lying because up until this point there has been NO AOAC approved method for analysis. Lawrence knows the story...call him.

AEA uses an organic suspension agent for Huma-Carb. I got a bottle from a batch while they were dialing in their formula and the solids separated. The resultant liquid on top was a beautiful gold color. Huma-Carb is a whole humate product that also contains the fulvic fraction.

@OptionDork...just based on your enthusiasm I will give it a try.

But please don't be offended that I remain highly skeptical. "Based on feild trials"...I think we all know games get played with that. Please cite those trials so I can see the design of experiment for myownself.

And are we merely talking about wet grinding...ball milling? What is the organic suspension agent...a clay?

And what is wrong with a more complete package involving both humic and fulvic? Every single time man tries to deconstruct things disaster eventually results imo.

And what is better about North Dakota humic/fulvic than New Mexico?

Just questions mind you...not a personal attack. If you are right I would be happy as can be. But I gotta know more than that paragraph or two before I develop your enthusiasm.

Kempf may or may not be a genius....to me that remains to be seen. He is, however, a shameless promotor. That always makes me wonder.

I took a quick look at Ferti Organic's fulvic product and they claim a 69% fulvic acid content for their dried product. That's a pretty bold claim IMO from what I understand. Dr. Faust will only claim a PPM level for fulvic acid content in his Ful-Power Humic product. Dr. Faust is considered one of the world's foremost experts on humic and fulvic acids. Not saying Ferti Organic's products don't work.

This stuff is so much fun!

milkyjoe said:

@OptionDork...just based on your enthusiasm I will give it a try.

But please don't be offended that I remain highly skeptical. "Based on feild trials"...I think we all know games get played with that. Please cite those trials so I can see the design of experiment for myownself.

And are we merely talking about wet grinding...ball milling? What is the organic suspension agent...a clay?

And what is wrong with a more complete package involving both humic and fulvic? Every single time man tries to deconstruct things disaster eventually results imo.

And what is better about North Dakota humic/fulvic than New Mexico?

Just questions mind you...not a personal attack. If you are right I would be happy as can be. But I gotta know more than that paragraph or two before I develop your enthusiasm.

Kempf may or may not be a genius....to me that remains to be seen. He is, however, a shameless promotor. That always makes me wonder.

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Ha ha love this stuff! I don't get it as personal either way. Just a discussion. North Dakota deposits are not better than New Mexico deposits and vice versa. They are simply different.

The organic suspension agents is/are a formula that is proprietary to Jerry Brunetti at Agri Dynamics. Couldn't tell you what the story is there.

John uses wet ball milling and far from a shameless promoter. He's a salt of the earth kind of guy. The dude manages the nutrient programs for 10's of thousands of acres of crops. Only reason he makes products is because he needs to replace ineffective ones currently available. From what I know the national average for yield on tomato plants is 10 lbs per plant and people that follow his program get 30 lbs.

As for a foliar Huma-Carb works yet will discolor leaves because of the humate content since nano sized particles will enter leaf stomata. Foliar works yet better suited for soil applications.

Nothing wrong with a complete package and one of the reasons I like John's Huma-Carb.

I find the discussion very productive. And again, definitely I will try it based on your enthusiasm

And I don't have a problem with John...but he is a promotor. But you have to be and maybe he is promoting the best

But yield vs national avg means not much to me. That national avg includes a lot of fucking idiots following NPK theory. What is Johns avg vs say Nutri Tech...that would mean something to me, or vs MidWest BioAg or even Kinsey.

I do respect Jerry also, for sure. His work on funny protein is amazing. If I were growing cattle he would be my go to man, no question.

OptionDork said:

I took a quick look at Ferti Organic's fulvic product and they claim a 69% fulvic acid content for their dried product. That's a pretty bold claim IMO from what I understand. Dr. Faust will only claim a PPM level for fulvic acid content in his Ful-Power Humic product. Dr. Faust is considered one of the world's foremost experts on humic and fulvic acids. Not saying Ferti Organic's products don't work.

This stuff is so much fun!

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Nor am I saying their claim is 100% accurate. But it is good shit from my point of view. Off topic...but the Ferti Nitro is pure genius. I added it to a soil with an ergs of 0.4 thinking it would drive the number up...nope, did not move it one bit. But the plants got amazing...I assume the plant took up the aminos directly, I did not know that was even possible.

milkyjoe said:

And I don't have a problem with John...but he is a promotor.

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How much time have you spent with him on the phone? I've been fortunate to know him before he got 'famous' lol. Been dealing with him before he put together his production plant in Ohio. I think he's like 24 years old now, never touched a computer and only thing he cares about is growing better crops. He's Amish, doesn't drive a car, etc. I remember talking to him about what he learned about drilling oil wells and the integrity of the hole and stuff and how that applies to agriculture.

I'm not enthusiastic about what he offers yet seems to make sense and there is a difference. The right tool for the right job.

I have not spoken to him. I listen to him every chance I get...definitely impressed, but not quite yet sold. I have watched Amish Mafia though...does that count

milkyjoe said:

I have watched Amish Mafia though...does that count

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No

When you get to run the nutrient program for 10's of thousands of acres across the country before you're 25 let me know.

So what's the advantage of a non-chelated humic acid product over one that's already chelated, assuming we're talking about "best" product? Not necessarily the most affordable, but it keeps you from playing a guessing game in regards to available mineral content in your soil.

OptionDork said:

No

When you get to run the nutrient program for 10's of thousands of acres across the country before you're 25 let me know.

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Too late. Nor am I claiming to be as smart as John at this. But 1500% efficiency and I could put whatever number I want on it cause blah, blah, blah....come on, that is not real science. But that is not the meat and potatos anyways and I do want to learn what I can from the man.

and btw...I use PhotoMag already. Really like it. Was using Albion's boron and some how stumbled on the fact that no matter how much Mg is in the soil for some reason when you foliar Mg you get a brix bump damn near all the time. So I went with PM. Mg, B and the other stuff was a no brainer (fortunately) for me.

Let me ask a for real question though since you have talked with John. I know he promotes microbial metabolites for plant health over solublized salts. There has to be some EC in the soil or it is technically dead...right, or no? Reams talked about productive soils having certain ECs or ergs is the term he used. Do John's soils have lower ECs...say below 0.6 in fruit fill?

I was messing around and made two almost identical soils...only difference was one had fair (at best) compost and the other had a very nice vermicompost (horse manure, straw and veggie scraps left alone for 8 months). I kind of expected the better compost soil would have a lower EC...but it did not. It had an EC (Hanna's meter on the S setting) about double the crappy compost. I am failing to understand that at all and wonder if John's work throws some light on it?

And how do you feel about the amino chelated stuff vs liquid micronized. Let's say you only want Ca...micronized CaCO3 or glycinate chelated Ca? The marketing claim for that one being it allows the Ca to be far more mobile in the plant...speed of NO3? And I don't know if that is true or not but the stuff does work well in my experience. You need P with your Ca, OK...pht P...but Ca alone? And maybe you always should use P with Ca...I do know the combo of P, Ca, Mg and B is a very potent brix builder.

And carbon induction...have you seen that work with a real high N using plant (say corn for example), or cannabis (are any of John's acres corn and is it grown without added N)? That would honestly be a serious goal for me. And once you have carbon induction up and running would you actually need huma carb?

If I could convince myself that is possible I would be all over his methods. Even I see if you could get away with not adding N to the soil you save a bunch of C and make your life a whole lot easier.

And I meant no disrespect to the Amish. Just a stupid, high joke. Sorry if I offended.

How about this HA product? Thoughts & opinions? It sure looks cool when you sprinkle a little in a clear glass of water as it slowly disperses downward.

http://www.humicgrowth.com/downloads/100SolubleHumicAcidPowder-Complete_English.pdf

http://www.humicgrowth.com/humicacidpowder.htm

milkyjoe said:

Too late. Nor am I claiming to be as smart as John at this. But 1500% efficiency and I could put whatever number I want on it cause blah, blah, blah....come on, that is not real science. But that is not the meat and potatos anyways and I do want to learn what I can from the man.

and btw...I use PhotoMag already. Really like it. Was using Albion's boron and some how stumbled on the fact that no matter how much Mg is in the soil for some reason when you foliar Mg you get a brix bump damn near all the time. So I went with PM. Mg, B and the other stuff was a no brainer (fortunately) for me.

Let me ask a for real question though since you have talked with John. I know he promotes microbial metabolites for plant health over solublized salts. There has to be some EC in the soil or it is technically dead...right, or no? Reams talked about productive soils having certain ECs or ergs is the term he used. Do John's soils have lower ECs...say below 0.6 in fruit fill?

I was messing around and made two almost identical soils...only difference was one had fair (at best) compost and the other had a very nice vermicompost (horse manure, straw and veggie scraps left alone for 8 months). I kind of expected the better compost soil would have a lower EC...but it did not. It had an EC (Hanna's meter on the S setting) about double the crappy compost. I am failing to understand that at all and wonder if John's work throws some light on it?

And how do you feel about the amino chelated stuff vs liquid micronized. Let's say you only want Ca...micronized CaCO3 or glycinate chelated Ca? The marketing claim for that one being it allows the Ca to be far more mobile in the plant...speed of NO3? And I don't know if that is true or not but the stuff does work well in my experience. You need P with your Ca, OK...pht P...but Ca alone? And maybe you always should use P with Ca...I do know the combo of P, Ca, Mg and B is a very potent brix builder.

And carbon induction...have you seen that work with a real high N using plant (say corn for example), or cannabis (are any of John's acres corn and is it grown without added N)? That would honestly be a serious goal for me. And once you have carbon induction up and running would you actually need huma carb?

If I could convince myself that is possible I would be all over his methods. Even I see if you could get away with not adding N to the soil you save a bunch of C and make your life a whole lot easier.

And I meant no disrespect to the Amish. Just a stupid, high joke. Sorry if I offended.

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Ha ha it's all good and I got a bit carried away. Didn't mean any disrespect to you. This is a thread for humic acid products and we're getting off topic.

That being said. Cool on the Photo Mag. I remember talking to John about using that for alfalfa. He said that using Sea-Crop in conjunction with Photo Mag was important. Never thought I'd see someone on a canna forum use Photo Mag. Honestly I had the good fortune to work with him about 4 years ago before he got busy. Even back then he was moving away from working with farmers and more towards dealing with his brokers/distributors and teaching. Haven't talked to him in awhile.

As for the first bolded part he absolutely promotes microbial metabolites over solubilized salts. Vaguely remember him telling me about how to use something like urea(?) and adding a sugar and let something like lactobacillus complex it to make it more soil friendly and slow release? Pretty sure in this case the required urea input dropped due to the complexing. As for the EC/ergs thing cannot provide any feedback as that never came up.

As for the second bolded part I can only speculate.

As for bolded part 3 an amino acid chelate is close to a microbial metabolite.

As for the N thing if you look at some of what he's done with corn there's a reliance on stuff like azobacter. In particular his use of Sea-Crop reduced the reliance on any N input. It's speculated that Sea-Crop either provides azotobacter or supports azotobacter activity.

Also if you look at what John does you'll see he uses a lot of Tainio Technology products and Sea-Crop.

Best thing you can do is simply CALL him through Advancing Eco-Agriculture and have a conversation. Don't know what you can offer him in return except maybe a lively conversation. AEO offers an open house every year mid summer. Take a trip and have some fun. You can also look and see if John is speaking at the upcoming Acres Magazine conference. Maybe you can get some private time with him then.

milkyjoe said:

Reams talked about productive soils having certain ECs or ergs is the term he used.

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In regards to Reams why don't you just call Bob Pike at Pike Agri Labs and ask that? Bob is a direct student of Reams. I did do a little minor work with Bob a few years back. I'm sure you're aware of Luebkes in regards to relative humus and ORP? Jeez Tom Hill was adjusting fertigation with H2O2 measured by ORP a few years back.

Talk to Bob before he dies as he's getting pretty old.

Great discussion on Kempfs stuff and plant nutrition in general.

I use photomag in conjunction with seacrop. I have seen good results but I was changing and doing alot at the time so...

I know John has spoken for the past two year in Ma, I have been fortunate enough to catch both and hope he does it again next year.

He self promotes like crazy but his methods are sound, and many of his products can be mimicked, not all but some.

Timbuktu