The little things add up. Boosting your yield beyond 1g/watt

delta9nxs · Oct 13, 2009

hey, people!

the formula for offsetting watts with btu's is 1 watt per 5 btu. 1000w needs 5000 btu.

i bought 1k hortilux hps and tried to run them without tubes and could not control the heat, even with a massive ac. also i run mag ballasts and have never had a bulb failure with hortilux. i replace them every 6 months.

i put cool tubes with 500 cfm fans on them and now i run 8" from the closest foliage. so i strongly believe that proximity offsets light loss running bare bulbs further away, say 16-24" like most of the gurus recommend.

i run my lights vertically in between the plants and get 360* coverage with all foliage in the sweet spot. this is possible because of pruning. i rotate the plants 1/3 turn daily.

i am running 2250 cu ft of air per minute through a 1200 cu ft room and can report that i get about the same yield as when i ran co2.

i've got 16 plants under 4000 watts total and harvest one plant per week. that plant is averaging 10 oz so if you were to extrapolate that into a 16 week unit grow that would be 4536 grams divided by 4000 watts is 1.134 g per watt. i think i can do better in the future.

later on

smoke1sun · Oct 13, 2009

Nice info folks!!!!!!!!

Dankblueberries · Oct 13, 2009

Texasdrodown said:
So setting up vented lights cost more than a ac unit big for your room? My hoods weren't very much I bought the hydrofarm 8" radiant's then I bought a small stand alone ac and it cost more than all three hoods,ducting and inline fan I cool them with. Just wondering if you could put up on cheap place you bought your ac?

Right about now craigslist will have them for real cheap. I always buy them in the fall when they are cheaper, and if you want new, home depot has them on sale now also.

intlplayr · Oct 16, 2009

dasmoke505 said:
I was wondering if you run an AC, wouldn't your fan air suck all that air out? If you were using a window AC wouldn't the smell come out of the end of the AC? Did some solve that problem?

Water-cooled A/C (doubles as a dehumidifier) is the best for closed room environment in conjunction with pumped up CO2 levels IMHO. Nothing vented this way and super controlled environment FYI. Also smell will be kept to minimum this way and security will be optimal. Just my :2cents:

Dank, what yield are u getting? I've been trying to find a thread that compares different approaches / setups with yields.

DankNugz420 · Oct 16, 2009

ive been hearing good and bad reviews on digital ballasts...

the good points are... Brighter light, less heat, and no humming noise (if stealth is a concern)

the Bad points are... Bulbs burns out faster, possible interference with electronic devices?, and i cant think of any other bad things.

Honestly im probably going to buy the digitals because i plan on replacing my bulbs pretty often, so life-span of the bulb isnt much of a concern for me...

your thoughts?

VerdantGreen · Oct 16, 2009

im interested in your record Dankblueberries

im organic soil so couldnt comment about the ppm (although i usually find less is more with nutes)

i would have to agree with the air cooled hoods - not only does the glass cut down light but i doubt if the reflectors are that efficient. the other thing with lights, is make sure you have them high enough to spread for a good footprint. if you are looking for optimum grams/watt then you want around 60watts/square foot.

V.

Hydro-Soil · Oct 16, 2009

DankNugz420 said:
the Bad points are... Bulbs burns out faster, possible interference with electronic devices?, and i cant think of any other bad things.

Sudden failures resulting in fire hazard. Most mags make some kind of noise that's 'not right' well before they fail. Not 100% but vastly more so than the digis.

ninfan77 · Oct 16, 2009

How would one justify the running of a window or mini split A/C in the winter time..... Wouldn't it freeze up?

Having the room completely insulated and with multiple 600's or 1000s will heat up quickly w/out using air cooled hoods...

EvilTwin · Oct 16, 2009

Interesting read...
One area where I differ is on the CO2. I share living space with my plants. It's easier for me to ventilate my room into my living space and temps are always right on. Having an enclosed room is a complication...though I suppose yields could prove me wrong.

Another thing I do (which negates light cooling) is a light mover. I can get my lights closer and provide better light penetration using the mover then if I used enclosed vented lights.

There's more then one way to skin a cat (coming from a dog person). lol
Peace,
ET

Lazyman · Oct 16, 2009

Yeah I've had window AC's freeze up when it got under 40-*F, no fun at all. They make mini-splits that are designed to work in cold weather though, but you have to find it as a feature.

EvilTwin · Oct 16, 2009

ninfan77 said:
How would one justify the running of a window or mini split A/C in the winter time..... Wouldn't it freeze up?

I've been debating using a small ac in my grow room exhausted into the rest of my house. Capture the leftover heat.
ET

superultramega · Oct 16, 2009

My a/c actually exhausts inside the building.
I tore open a window unit and created a sealed evaporator coil ducted back into the grow completely sealed.
Of course you need a decent amount of space to exhaust into, but this can be achieved in multiple ways. It would work great in a basement.
Odor is a concern for me so I need to run an exhaust to keep a negative pressure on the room. You can never stop all the pinhole leaks. And pinhole leaks is all it takes. As far as running both it isn't a problem if your room temp is higher than the temp of your intake air. It simply helps out the cooling. You are venting conditioned air, but it is getting replaced with air cooler than your room. There is no efficiency loos for your a/c.
With my setup where the a/c exhausts inside the building and my fresh air intake is in the building which always has conditioned air, the only loss is from the main a/c unit for the building, but I haven't noticed it to be an issue significant enough to worry about. It will make up for it's summer losses in the winter to some extent as it's essentially a heat pump for the rest of the building.

!!! · Oct 16, 2009

Losing 5% of your light in a vented hood/cooltube sounds small. The guy at my hydro shop said a cooltube will cut about 1/3 the lumens.

You're right in that things add up. Being able to get the most out of your lights, equipment, nutes, genetics, etc is a skill. Priority usually forces the grower to focus on certain things and to cut back on others. i.e,. losing 10% yield in exchange for more security, or losing 40% yield in exchange for lower operation costs (no intention to sell) etc.

Check out the Yield-O-Rama for the numbers, so you can maximize your yield/space/etc: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/yor/yor.htm

One Love 731 · Oct 16, 2009

I very much agree with a lot of this. but will not be giving up on my air cooled hoods any time soon.Why run an ac when its 40c outside? couldn't you just pump the hot air outside via a carbon filter and have a passive intake via a furnace filter box, this would also help create negative pressure, granted when using Co2 nothing beats a good AC when outside temps are high outside but when the temps drop you can achieve an awful lot by having over sized fans cooling your lights. Its my experience that if your pumping 40c air through them, more than likely your problem is not going to be keeping things cooled down its going to be keeping the temp high enough by using a fan control switch or a heater. I also think it would be a good idea to pump some hot air into the rest of the home if your not using Co2 and you can afford the carbon scrubber ect. The best thing I have heard in this thread is to always concentrate on the weakest link, rather it be nutes, genetics, lighting, temp's,RH, ect., ect. Thats how its done. Anyways just my :2cents:

Karma, One Love

Rocky Mtn Squid · Oct 16, 2009

the formula for offsetting watts with btu's is 1 watt per 5 btu. 1000w needs 5000 btu.

If this figure is correct, you would require a 1 Ton AC unit that would pump out 12,000 BTU's of cold. I own such a unit, and know that it consumes 1250 watts of juice to accomplish this. Hence, it's a total pig on power. Moreover, it's noisey, doesn't like being pushed too hard while operating-strains easily- and requires to be manually emptied of H20 on a daily basis.

Has anybody seen any water cooled system's....??? I know that Hydro Innovations has a very slick set up for water cooling both your lights and your nute rez using the same chiller. They claim it's 40% more energy effecient than an AC cooled system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uRrMvfucY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CulolkUgyGc&feature=related

superultramega · Oct 16, 2009

You still need a water chiller for that system. you can gain some efficiency from a large reservoir, but anything over a couple 1kw-ers you'll need additional cooling.
They have those running at my local hydro shop hooked up to a chiller. They tell me the chiller doesn't run too often but it was a necessary addition. It's cooling 2kw.
A/C units, or anything else really, don't run at 100% efficiency. To get 5000 watts of cooling it may take 6000 watts of elec for example. Trying to match the input of your light to a cooling unit is not 1 for 1. Much of the energy used by the lights is converted to light energy rather than heat. The same is true in your a/c where a great deal of energy is converted to heat rather than extracting heat. While I like the cool boxes you can't escape the law of conservation of energy. Transferring heat into one additional substance carries it's own losses.

superultramega · Oct 16, 2009

BTW 1000watts is about 3400 btu

But I think he was saying you need 5000btu a/c to cool each 1000watt light. That seems about right as I run 2kw air cooled with a 6000btu a/c that runs about 80%

Dankblueberries · Oct 17, 2009

superultramega said:
BTW 1000watts is about 3400 btu

But I think he was saying you need 5000btu a/c to cool each 1000watt light. That seems about right as I run 2kw air cooled with a 6000btu a/c that runs about 80%

There are a lot of factors to consider when you are sizing your ac for your grow. Outside temperature is a major factor to consider. The difference between summer and winter is huge. In the summer, my setup uses 3000 btu per 1000 watt, in the winter half of that. Humidity is a factor also. If it is dry, the ac runs less efficient. To give you an example of how I came up with 3000 btu per 1000 watt light, here is how mine is set up.

I find a large garage that I can build a smaller room inside the garage. Inside this room is where I grow. The Ac unit(s) blow cold air inside the grow room, while the back of the AC blows the hot air into the rest of the garage. This space that is in your garage, yet outside of your grow room, has a charcoal filter strapped to the ceiling, blowing the hot air either inside your living space (free heat in the winter) or outside the house/garage.(in the summer) If this garage area that the ac units are dumping their heat is small, or your exhaust filter is not getting rid of the heat fast enough, than the ac units will not work as efficiently.

I have seen a set up where someone custom built a box straight off the back of the AC, and inside this box, was a charcoal filter sucking the hot air to the outside. So no hot air from the AC ever escaped the custom box. He said the ac unit worked even better this way as it never tried to cool itself with the hot air it just blew out the back. I liked the idea.

The best of course is to have a split ac, where the condenser sits outside. If you want to run it in the winter you have to get a model that is made to run when it is freezing outside. I guess people would wonder why you have an AC running in the winter, but if you are running a legal(state law) grow, who cares. I have not used a split ac, but I will in the near future. It is the way to go if you are not worried about people wondering.

Hope this clarifies some questions.

Dankblueberries · Oct 17, 2009

VerdantGreen said:
im interested in your record Dankblueberries

im organic soil so couldnt comment about the ppm (although i usually find less is more with nutes)

i would have to agree with the air cooled hoods - not only does the glass cut down light but i doubt if the reflectors are that efficient. the other thing with lights, is make sure you have them high enough to spread for a good footprint. if you are looking for optimum grams/watt then you want around 60watts/square foot.

V.

I have been consistently getting over 3 lb per 1000 watt light with a high yielding strain that finishes in 9 weeks, in a custom made ebb and flow table using chemical ferts. My record is 3.4, and I know I can beat it, because conditions were less than optimal at that time. My goal is to get 4 lb per 1000 watt. These numbers are stem snapping, dry, weight.

On the organic side, my record was my last run which was 2.7 lb per 1000 watt with an 8 week strain,(started from seed) and this was in 3 gal grow bags, filled with a peat moss mix that I came up with, fertilizing with sea bird shit and many other organic amendments. Each plant, was hand watered.

These numbers didn't happen over night. I have been refining my technique for decades. When people ask me what is the main reason I get these yields, I tell them, "get an air conditioner so you can make your room a closed system and fill it with CO2"

VerdantGreen · Oct 17, 2009

thats a good yield Db!. my setup is much smaller than yours with organic soil and no CO2, but if you are looking for some g/w competition as you mentioned earlier, then check out my diary - most of my strains aren't high yielders, but from my calculations my record (with a high yielder) just beats yours

V.

The little things add up. Boosting your yield beyond 1g/watt

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