Decarb before which step?

G.O. Joe · Jun 13, 2019

zanog said:
I think we need to get someone to do the experiment and publish logs.

You are the ideal candidate for this and your other questions. Nominated. It's likely a general rule that decarboxylating any benzoic acid to the benzene makes it more soluble in alkanes. A cleaning bath with decent wattage would be a lot cheaper than your sonicator.

zanog · Jun 13, 2019

G.O. Joe said:
You are the ideal candidate for this and your other questions. Nominated. It's likely a general rule that decarboxylating any benzoic acid to the benzene makes it more soluble in alkanes. A cleaning bath with decent wattage would be a lot cheaper than your sonicator.

And I would love it, I can get heptane and many other solvents (in europe it's a lot harder than it the US, you have to have a permit, but I know people). What I can't get is ~pure thc distillate or thca crystalline. So I'm far from making the experiment myself... I would do it for all the usual solvents on room temp at least.

As it seems so far that the predictor can be off by a lot, still I'm suspecting that decarbing would work better after extraction.
When do you decarb Joe? Did you use ethyl acetate before for extraction, do you agree with the order of solvents by the predictor?

zanog · Jun 13, 2019

G.O. Joe said:
A cleaning bath with decent wattage would be a lot cheaper than your sonicator.

Well the control circuit can't be made by hand(as hf circuit is an antenna essentially(not that we want that), precision calcualtions and machinery needed to prototype), I can draw and emulate and design the circuit and then send it out(see this: https://pcbshopper.com/ if you ever want to do something like this pm me, we do it all the time), I can have it in my hand in 2 days and it would be like $200(which would be <$10 in mfg quantities). I can assemble it at home. hielscher asking $4k-$6k for it as I gather, I can do this from ~$600 I guess, It will be bigger but the same efficiency and power consumption.

I can use this:https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.53.64962e01sHrsSA not even relatively expensive.

edit: well, I guess I can make the circuit at home if it can take more power modulating, and yeah, so like real cheap less than $300, I won't use cheap parts though so it wont be lower than this because I want it's operation customizable somewhat.

zanog · Jun 13, 2019

or buy this and cnc another head for it: https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.79.64962e01sHrsSA
And I just realized by typing, you meant an ultrasonic cleaner, like the ultrasonic inline dishwashers nowadays, great idea actually, but that would be something like qw* and not a soxhlet.
Evaluating the pros/cons of soxhlet+transducer and submerged extraction on room temp+transducer would be nice.

Think about this: I can cool the soxhlet's condenser even really agressively and pull strong vacuum. Ultrasonic cleaner would have to be really modified to handle vacuum etc...If its even needed? I guess keeps unwanted conversions at a minimum? Are there any lab logs available about this?

If you had to make an educated guess, which would be more efficient? I can tell you how much it would cost if interested.

troutman · Jun 13, 2019

zanog said:
Think about this: I can cool the soxhlet's condenser even really agressively and pull strong vacuum.

I also have a soxhlet extractor and will use it shortly. As long as the cooling liquid is colder than the
boiling point of the extraction solvent and you don't overheat your boiling flask you won't have any
issues. Keep an eye on the condenser and don't allow the vapors to go more than half way up it by
controlling the heat.

troutman · Jun 13, 2019

The more complex the molecule the less it is soluble usually.

For example:

Pentane with it's 5 carbon atoms has a water solubility of 40 mg L−1 at 20 °C.

Hexane with it's 6 carbon atoms has a water solubility of 9.5 mg L−1 at 20 °C.

Heptane with it's 7 carbon atoms has a water solubility of 0.0003% at 20 °C.

So without going into an atomic bonding speech. Just know that THC is more soluble than THCA.

zanog · Jun 13, 2019

troutman said:
So without going into an atomic bonding speech. Just know that THC is more soluble than THCA.

With all the respect please do, the reason of the thread is to prove is it better to decarb prior or after extraction , thru solubility I guess. So please prove. I think there are exceptions to this rule.

Actually I think someone should do the experiment in all usual solvents, that would be the ultimate proof. I would if I could get concentrates, but I'm still learning to make them.

Also the predictor predicts close to many things you can find data about. Did you check it?

zanog · Jun 13, 2019

troutman said:
I also have a soxhlet extractor and will use it shortly. As long as the cooling liquid is colder than the
boiling point of the extraction solvent and you don't overheat your boiling flask you won't have any
issues. Keep an eye on the condenser and don't allow the vapors to go more than half way up it by
controlling the heat.

Yeah, I'll have mine in a week. I;m looking forward to it.

Did you try this without the heating source? You want to do hexane that's 20C below heptane, you can easly pull it down to room temp, or even a cooling bath on the boiling flask and a cascaded chiller on the condenser. Is there a benefit to the lot of more power needed to do this?

troutman · Jun 13, 2019

zanog said:
Actually I think someone should do the experiment in all usual solvents, that would be the ultimate proof.

Just do one extraction with the same solvent and equal Cannabis that is decarbed and not decarbed.

Then you'll see for yourself which one yields more.

zanog · Jun 13, 2019

troutman said:
Just do one extraction with the same solvent and equal Cannabis that is decarbed and not decarbed.
Then you'll see for yourself which one yields more.

Yields more what? how do I test it? I don't have access to a lab.

Wouldn't be a better way to use the heptane from the same container in the same amount and try to dissolve all in room temp in a magnetic stirrer, measure unsolubles, calculate solubility. repeat again for control results. But for this you need almost pure concentrates , I can't get, and I can't make yet, and precision scale(this is what I got).

troutman · Jun 13, 2019

zanog said:
Yields more what? how do I test it? I don't have access to a lab.

Simple, weigh out 100 grams of cannabis 2 times to make 2 samples. Decarb one sample and extract.
Then extract sample that is not decarbed. After to remove the solvent you'll see which one weighs more.

zanog · Jun 13, 2019

troutman said:
Simple, weigh out 100 grams of cannabis 2 times to make 2 samples. Decarb one sample and extract.
Then extract sample that is not decarbed. After to remove the solvent you'll see which one weighs more.

This is not conclusive because I can't measure how pure it is and what is the rest. If I can separate in spd to a level like 98+% with low losses then it would work just weight it, but without labwork I;m not confident.

If this works: https://www.cannalyticssupply.com/product-category/thc-test-kits/
Then yeah you right, I could compare about effectively, but we would not know solubility numbers. I might still do what you suggested if this test can be accurate enogh.

Also I try to poll here with no so much luck: https://future4200.com/t/thc-thc-a-solubility-comparison/27651/28?u=zanog

zanog · Jun 14, 2019

Also note that people on icmag mostly say in the past posts that they decarb before extraction and the future4200 community's says the opposite! And everyone including me believes that its based on solely the solubility of the compounds, which we have no data about.

Interesting...

troutman · Jun 14, 2019

Until you get a real laboratory test you won't know exact amounts of Cannabinoids in your extract.

zanog · Jun 14, 2019

troutman said:
Until you get a real laboratory test you won't know exact amounts of Cannabinoids in your extract.

I'm not suprised, it says tlc, i was hopeful...

Douglas.Curtis · Jun 14, 2019

The decarb before/after debate is mainly between people making edibles and not going for pure extractions. The debate revolves around which method retains the most terpenes. You're not interested in terpenes and have expressed a desire to focus on only cannabinoids. Their debates should not concern you, and you should focus on the known temp over time decarb information by itself. As I stated earlier, you have the most control over temp/time before you do your extractions.

What is your end goal, being reached through finding the difference in solubility? Nearly any solvent is going to extract almost 100% of the cannabinoid oils. I don't believe 100% is possible without prohibitively large volumes of solvent or additional processing, but that's a guess.

Most people doing extractions are focused on using solvents which pull the least amount of unwanted materials. Nearly any commonly used solvent for cannabis is going to pull all the cannabinoids you're looking for anyway.

Cvh · Jun 14, 2019

zanog said:
This is not conclusive because I can't measure how pure it is and what is the rest. If I can separate in spd to a level like 98+% with low losses then it would work just weight it, but without labwork I;m not confident.

Would there be a difference in purity between decarbed and not decarbed? Wouldn't the purity be around te same between the two? Does anybody happen to know the answer to this question?

I would still like to know if there is a difference in yield between the 2 methods using the same solvent.
Could anyone do this experiment?

Mikell · Jun 15, 2019

zanog said:
Also note that people on icmag mostly say in the past posts that they decarb before extraction and the future4200 community's says the opposite! And everyone including me believes that its based on solely the solubility of the compounds, which we have no data about.

Interesting...

Future4200 is much more technical. 99% of users there distill while I doubt there are a dozen here. Most of the highly technical knowledge here resides in half a dozen brains.

Few of which are here as you have noticed.

G.O. Joe · Jun 15, 2019

zanog said:
When do you decarb Joe?

When I smoke hash. A lot of modern pot is too weird for me and must be extracted instead. I like doing different experiments. As a chemistry enthusiast for 40 years I see heating the chemical soup that is ground up buds or is below a Soxhlet as potentially unwise.

zanog said:
Yields more what? how do I test it? I don't have access to a lab.

See if a more polar solvent extracts acid cannabinoids from material thoroughly extracted with an alkane, or extract with alkane, dry and decarb, then extract again. Soxhlets are convenient for small scale but so are $50 ultrasonic cleaning baths from amazon.

zanog · Jun 15, 2019

Cvh said:
Would there be a difference in purity between decarbed and not decarbed? Wouldn't the purity be around te same between the two? Does anybody happen to know the answer to this question?

I would still like to know if there is a difference in yield between the 2 methods using the same solvent.
Could anyone do this experiment?

as you can see there:

https://future4200.com/t/average-loss-of-cannabinoids-from-extraction-to-distillate/27821/4?u=zanog
These conversions are happening so no, too many variables without lab testing, or starting from testes distillate/crystalline.
And yeah, I'd like to see solubility test in the usual solvents, if no one does it I will, but it may took me months to get there.

Decarb before which step?

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