Coco coir calcium and Magnesium

herbertbrown · May 5, 2019

Hi guy i have a question, i grow in coco and i always get a little calmag issue i use advanced nutrients sensi coco with ro water and after about 1-2 weeks i see the deficiencysxin early bloom i can see it also at 1.5ec . Is it because i fertilize on the low end at the vegetative phase? Ec at 1.2 would give me about 70ppm calcium. Does somebody know how much coco needs calcium? I use canna cocos which is pre buffered. Is it right if i have not enough calcium and Magnesium the coco steals so the cations stay filled but the plants cant absorb it because the coco gets it faster? If that is right i need to know how much calcium Magnesium is needed so i dont get the deficiencys all the time. Sorry for my bad english

MJPassion · May 5, 2019

You probably don't get a calmag issue...

You get a Ca issue or a Mg issue.

Those two elements are antagonistic as far as uptake is concerned.
You need to figure out which element is either lacking or in excess then go from there.

Applesauce · May 5, 2019

I was only getting Ca/Mg problems in coco when using too much K from other additives like potassium silicate. I do not think you should see problems with ca/mg using sensi bloom coco. The ca:mg ratio in that product is also acceptable. AN sensi bloom coco schedule calls for their big bud coco product which is +mg, +phosphorus and +potassium starting at the same time you're running into a deficiency. Is is an mg or a ca deficiency? Check your potassium inputs and push out sodium. I add 1/2 tsp/gal of gypsum every time I water plants in veg.

DunHav`nFun · May 7, 2019

Applesauce said:
I was only getting Ca/Mg problems in coco when using too much K from other additives like potassium silicate. I do not think you should see problems with ca/mg using sensi bloom coco. The ca:mg ratio in that product is also acceptable. AN sensi bloom coco schedule calls for their big bud coco product which is +mg, +phosphorus and +potassium starting at the same time you're running into a deficiency. Is is an mg or a ca deficiency? Check your potassium inputs and push out sodium. I add 1/2 tsp/gal of gypsum every time I water plants in veg.

What`s a 1/2 teaspoon of gypsum do to the ph of your feed water Applesauce.....????????……

Enquiring minds wanna know.....What type gypsum is immediately available to the plants and where do you get it ?.....thanks for your time and.....

Peace....DHF..... :ying:

…...

Applesauce · May 8, 2019

DunHav`nFun said:
What`s a 1/2 teaspoon of gypsum do to the ph of your feed water Applesauce.....????????……

Enquiring minds wanna know.....What type gypsum is immediately available to the plants and where do you get it ?.....thanks for your time and.....

Peace....DHF..... …...

Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) will not act as a liming or acidifying agent as it lacks a carbonate ion. The calcium and sulfur (SO4) in gypsum is immediately available. I use calcium sulfate in powder form though I've seen it pelletized at garden shops.

I appreciate the knowledge you've shared here DHF. Tips you've shared such as drip clean @ 1mL/gal have been invaluable. I've picked up a lot reading your postings.

FunkBomb · May 9, 2019

I use Advanced Sensi A/B for Coco. I use Vegamatrix Boost (1-0-1, 3% CA 1.5% MG) and don't have any problems at all.

-Funk

Lyfespan · May 9, 2019

MJPassion said:
You probably don't get a calmag issue...

You get a Ca issue or a Mg issue.

Those two elements are antagonistic as far as uptake is concerned.
You need to figure out which element is either lacking or in excess then go from there.

or iron, remember advanced has iron added :tiphat:

Ibechillin · May 9, 2019

DunHav`nFun said:
What type gypsum is immediately available to the plants and where do you get it ?.....thanks for your time and.....

Peace....DHF..... …...

Solution grade gypsum is what you want DHF, its cheap to get 50lb bags online. Adding amino acids can increase the bioavailability greatly also as they work as chelators, Glycine is the amino acid used in chelated calcium products.

This thread is a good resource for gypsum information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=357679

Lyfespan · May 9, 2019

herbertbrown said:
Hi guy i have a question, i grow in coco and i always get a little calmag issue i use advanced nutrients sensi coco with ro water and after about 1-2 weeks i see the deficiencysxin early bloom i can see it also at 1.5ec . Is it because i fertilize on the low end at the vegetative phase? Ec at 1.2 would give me about 70ppm calcium. Does somebody know how much coco needs calcium? I use canna cocos which is pre buffered. Is it right if i have not enough calcium and Magnesium the coco steals so the cations stay filled but the plants cant absorb it because the coco gets it faster? If that is right i need to know how much calcium Magnesium is needed so i dont get the deficiencys all the time. Sorry for my bad english

info needed
is this veg or bloom?
type of lighting?
what types of calcium? what types of N and or K?
whats the in and out ECs?
MICRO are you using?

you cant have a calmag def, you have one or the other.

you need to be able to tell mobile vs immobile , and to know sign of repair from each. too many on here trying to see repairs to something that can only been seen from new growth, not the existing damage.

are you too involved with these plants, and cant leave things be?

Lyfespan · May 9, 2019

Ibechillin said:
Solution grade gypsum is what you want DHF, its cheap to get 50lb bags online. Adding amino acids can increase the bioavailability greatly also as they work as chelators, Glycine is the amino acid used in chelated calcium products.

This thread is a good resource for gypsum information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=357679

Lyfespan · May 9, 2019

Ibechillin said:
Solution grade gypsum is what you want DHF, its cheap to get 50lb bags online. Adding amino acids can increase the bioavailability greatly also as they work as chelators, Glycine is the amino acid used in chelated calcium products.

This thread is a good resource for gypsum information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=357679

Substituting Waste Gypsum
Wallboard for Agricultural
Gypsum
https://dnr.wi.gov/files/PDF/pubs/wa/WA607.pdf

DunHav`nFun · May 10, 2019

Thanks Applesauce and IBC......Seems like I need the amino acids to kick the shit in huh guys ?...…the reason I ask is I`ve had 1 helluva time with lockouts and imbalances in what was supposed ta be just a simple dirt grow under some basement stairs that`s ended up bein a damn nightmare trying to keep ph from droppin outta sight.....

Figured it couldn`t hurt to use gypsum as well as the dolomite lime I added that has had no luck at buffering the maxibloom @ 5 grams per gal......anyways......thanks for your time guys.....prolly gonna just go back to coco dtw after this run.....just thought dirt would be easy ya know.....water every 3 days and be done with it right ?.....Wrong.....lol.....no such thing as a free lunch...…there`s a learning curve with EVERY new setup , even if it`s supposed ta be easy....lol.....anyways.....

Take care and.....

Peace.....DHF...… :ying:

…..

CoCo_LoCo · May 10, 2019

Where do you get your coco from? Has it been buffered?

I stopped getting any deficiencies when I learnt how to buffer.

I only buffer myself because I once bought coco from someone who said it was buffered and I got horrible deficiencies.

Fucker.

Nifty_PoT · May 10, 2019

CoCo_LoCo how do you buffer your coco?

Ibechillin · May 10, 2019

DunHav`nFun said:
Thanks Applesauce and IBC......Seems like I need the amino acids to kick the shit in huh guys ?

Anytime man :tiphat:

, This link is to a pdf I found awhile ago that explains how amino acid chelation works, humic and fulvic acid are great additions as well.

https://www.modernplantnutrition.com.au/pdf/amino%20acid%20description%20web.pdf

DunHav`nFun said:
...…the reason I ask is I`ve had 1 helluva time with lockouts and imbalances in what was supposed ta be just a simple dirt grow under some basement stairs that`s ended up bein a damn nightmare trying to keep ph from droppin outta sight.....

Figured it couldn`t hurt to use gypsum as well as the dolomite lime I added that has had no luck at buffering the maxibloom @ 5 grams per gal......anyways......thanks for your time guys.....prolly gonna just go back to coco dtw after this run.....just thought dirt would be easy ya know.....water every 3 days and be done with it right ?.....Wrong.....lol.....no such thing as a free lunch...…there`s a learning curve with EVERY new setup , even if it`s supposed ta be easy....lol.....anyways.....

Take care and.....

Peace.....DHF...… …..

When I searched into using maxibloom I found mentions of 5 grams maxibloom dropping 1 gallon water as low as ph 4. I havent tried synthetic nutrients in soil yet and havent used maxibloom either so hopefully someone that has experience doing both will chime in.

These few questions about the grow should help narrow it down:

What soil are you using?
Tap or R/O water? If tap water is it low alkalinity?
Are you adjusting feed water ph before feeding?
Did the soil ph drop start happening after feeding maxibloom?
Granular or powder lime? How much did you add and when?
Have you tried flushing with ph corrected water, if yeah how did plants respond?
Maybe try feeding at lower strength after flushing to see how plants react?

CoCo_LoCo · May 11, 2019

Nifty_PoT said:
CoCo_LoCo how do you buffer your coco?

Here you go:

Coco Substrate Buffer

(Used for preparing non-buffered coco substrates such as compressed coco blocks)

Calcium Nitrate 290 g/l
Magnesium Nitrate 280 g/l

Make 1L by beginning with 500ml of RO (demineralised) water. Add ingredients one at a time, dissolving each ingredient before adding the next. When all ingredients have been added, top up to 1000ml (1L) with RO water.

What I recommend you do is hydrate the coir blocks in mains (tap) water. That is, fill a bucket or tub with mains water. Measure the EC of the mains water before adding the compressed coir block/s. Let’s say it’s EC 1.0 for arguments sake. Add the compressed coir block and allow it to expand. Stir the water and coco substrate around and then measure the EC again. You’ll no doubt find the EC is now much higher. OK, now run mains water through the coir (you may find a bucket with holes and mesh at the base helps here). Run the mains water through (flush) the coir until the water that has passed through the coir (runoff) is no more than EC 1.0 - 1.2. I.e. Original mains water EC ideally matches that of the runoff.

Now fill up a bucket with demineralised (RO) water and dilute the buffer concentrate to 1.4 EC (700ppm). Place the hydrated/expanded and water flushed coir into the diluted buffer solution and leave to soak for at least one hour.

After one hour or more, take out the now buffered coir and squeeze out the excess fluids so the coco substrate is not saturated/water logged. You may find drying it in the sun for a while helps. .

Ready to go – you now have a high quality buffered coir product at a fraction of the cost that you would pay for similar products through stores. I’d also recommend that you mix the coir with perlite. 60% coir to 40% perlite when using it as a run –to-waste medium.

EDIT: removed magnesium sulphate as it causes precipitation when mixing the base solution. Thanks Nifty_PoT for that info.

Applesauce · May 11, 2019

DunHav`nFun said:
Thanks Applesauce and IBC......Seems like I need the amino acids to kick the shit in huh guys ?...…the reason I ask is I`ve had 1 helluva time with lockouts and imbalances in what was supposed ta be just a simple dirt grow under some basement stairs that`s ended up bein a damn nightmare trying to keep ph from droppin outta sight.....

Figured it couldn`t hurt to use gypsum as well as the dolomite lime I added that has had no luck at buffering the maxibloom @ 5 grams per gal......anyways......thanks for your time guys.....prolly gonna just go back to coco dtw after this run.....just thought dirt would be easy ya know.....water every 3 days and be done with it right ?.....Wrong.....lol.....no such thing as a free lunch...…there`s a learning curve with EVERY new setup , even if it`s supposed ta be easy....lol.....anyways.....

Take care and.....

Peace.....DHF...… …..

I like using Nectar of the Gods "Olympus Up" for buffering the maxi-series powder solutions. It is not using the usual potassium bicarbonate or potassium hydroxide inputs and instead uses limestone. Important to note it is not dolomite lime (CaMg(CO3)2), which contains magnesium. I avoid using dolomite lime because of the Mg. Add calcitic lime to your soil for a pH buffer. I do not think amino acids are necessary for gypsum uptake. Agricultural studies I've read claim the calcium and sulfur in gypsum is readily available by plants as-is. I do not think you need to load amino acids into your soil to see the benefit.

Ibechillin · May 12, 2019

Good call on the calcitic lime to keep Mg low Applesauce. Naturally Gypsum is 100-150 times more water soluble than limestone and releases its calcium and sulfur much easier to the plant. The solution grade gypsum is calcium sulfate dihydrate and is even more water soluble and plant available since it has an extra water molecule. I learned recently from lyfespan and the link h.h shared of analytical results on gypsum that it also supplies boron in this thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=361617

Ibechillin said:
Adding amino acids can increase the bioavailability greatly

Not necessary like I said, but effortless to utilize and very beneficial.

Nifty_PoT · May 12, 2019

CoCo_LoCo said:
Here you go:

Hey man thanks , I just tried making this stock solution without thinking too much about the ingredients.

It went well until i added the Mgso4 haha. It made a calcium sulfate precipitate... white like milk :laughing:

I checked the ppm figures that the recipe provides in mg/l and will just use that in my buffering solution and skip making a stock solution , or maybe just leave out the magnesium sulfate from the stock.

Did you just use the recipe like that ? did you not get precipitation?

CoCo_LoCo · May 12, 2019

Shit nifty I'm sorry I could never get any magnesium sulphate or ferric so I excluded them (with no issues).

I should have mentioned that but had no idea there would be precipitation.

Luckily all those ingredients are dirt cheap so no harm no foul?

I ended up just adding equal parts of calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate to a large container of water until I hit the required EC.

Works just fine.

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