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Why bother keeping mother plants?

B

Betterhaff

Well-known member
Veteran
I’m sorry and don’t want stir things up but this is a pet peeve of mine. “Genetic drift” is a population dynamics term and has nothing to do with degradation that may occur with an individual plant being cloned over and over again. I wish new terminology would be coined to explain what, if any, happens when a certain individual looses things by repeated cloning.

It may be variety related or related to the individual itself but there are mixed opinions of this happening. Some say they have been cloning the same plant for years and years with no loss and others have said that after repeated cloning things seem to degrade. I would venture to guess any loss is due to environmental factors, stress, pathogens, etc, etc.
 
I

I wood

Well-known member
Betterhaff said:
I’m sorry and don’t want stir things up but this is a pet peeve of mine. “Genetic drift” is a population dynamics term and has nothing to do with degradation that may occur with an individual plant being cloned over and over again. I wish new terminology would be coined to explain what, if any, happens when a certain individual looses things by repeated cloning.

It may be variety related or related to the individual itself but there are mixed opinions of this happening. Some say they have been cloning the same plant for years and years with no loss and others have said that after repeated cloning things seem to degrade. I would venture to guess any loss is due to environmental factors, stress, pathogens, etc, etc.
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I agree.
Genetic drift is a misunderstood term that should be replaced with, " I fucked my plants up but don't understand how."
 
B

brown_thumb

Active member
Damn... all this talk of contamination makes me want to build a decontamination/wash room outside of every room with any cannabis in it.:D
 
Rodehazrd

Rodehazrd

Well-known member
nksv said:
anyone have issues with mums starting to flower out? Is she just showing she's ready or is it best to let her into the flower room to do her thing?
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I had that issue with some serious ak47
The sativa leaning girl i liked best autoflowered after a while in veg. It was not just one but a half dozen cuts all did that. I think it could have been the cfl lights I use for veg. I read on this forum I on Ace page Dubi said t5 lights would help that.
I just moved on to genetics that like my setup. Will go to LED's as I replace the lamps.:smoke out:
 
M

mushroombrew

Active member
Veteran
Betterhaff said:
I’m sorry and don’t want stir things up but this is a pet peeve of mine. “Genetic drift” is a population dynamics term and has nothing to do with degradation that may occur with an individual plant being cloned over and over again. I wish new terminology would be coined to explain what, if any, happens when a certain individual looses things by repeated cloning.

It may be variety related or related to the individual itself but there are mixed opinions of this happening. Some say they have been cloning the same plant for years and years with no loss and others have said that after repeated cloning things seem to degrade. I would venture to guess any loss is due to environmental factors, stress, pathogens, etc, etc.
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Very strain specific I believe. And of course environmentally specific too.

Keeping an annual in a perpetual state of veg will result in something.
What and when varies greatly. But there will be an effect.
 
M

moose eater

Rodehazrd said:
I had that issue with some serious ak47
The sativa leaning girl i liked best autoflowered after a while in veg. It was not just one but a half dozen cuts all did that. I think it could have been the cfl lights I use for veg. I read on this forum I on Ace page Dubi said t5 lights would help that.
I just moved on to genetics that like my setup. Will go to LED's as I replace the lamps.:smoke out:
Click to expand...

Used to use 4' T-8s (5600 k or brighter) over mothers in cupboards (previously described), and had one plant in particular (can't even remember what she was, other than she was a freebie, and she's LONG gone now). She produced decent smoke, but smaller buds, and she was prone early on to auto-flowering in veg (with 20-22 hours of light), though not technically categorized as an auto-flower plant.

Currently, and more recently, the Ghost Train Haze #1 showed female pistils very readily (at the base of petioles) under 22 hours light, using a combination of LED and T-8 (evenly split; 2 & 2, with the LEDs at 4200 k and the T-8s at 5600 k), but I also believe that soil stress can bring on some of this for some plants.
 
J

Jhhnn

Active member
Veteran
moose eater said:
Used to use 4' T-8s (5600 k or brighter) over mothers in cupboards (previously described), and had one plant in particular (can't even remember what she was, other than she was a freebie, and she's LONG gone now). She produced decent smoke, but smaller buds, and she was prone early on to auto-flowering in veg (with 20-22 hours of light), though not technically categorized as an auto-flower plant.

Currently, and more recently, the Ghost Train Haze #1 showed female pistils very readily (at the base of petioles) under 22 hours light, using a combination of LED and T-8 (evenly split; 2 & 2, with the LEDs at 4200 k and the T-8s at 5600 k), but I also believe that soil stress can bring on some of this for some plants.
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I know a person who grows Colorado Flo for market. They'll show preflowers under any photoperiod but won't really flower until the photoperiod is reduced.
 
M

moose eater

Jhhnn said:
I know a person who grows Colorado Flo for market. They'll show preflowers under any photoperiod but won't really flower until the photoperiod is reduced.
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Them's the ones! Two elongated pistils and ONE bract per petiole/internode...

The benefit being (other than for the concerns re. doubting the stability of a given plant) is pre-sexing. "Yep!! It's a girl!!!!" :biggrin:

I think there's a quirky response in these plants for nearly every type of stress, from light quality, to soil, to dryness, to nutrients, etc.

We've even (jokingly) toyed with getting a grant to study whether or not plants do better with classical music (orchestral, opera, etc on public radio) or rock-n-roll, versus a variety of each, and more... (Mine get a pretty steady supply of classic rock, though there was a period of signal (digital) interference that the Jesus channel was featured prominently in the grow area, as it was (strangely) the only one that would come in without the crackling. Should've kept notes during that period. :biggrin:
 
N

nksv

Member
Rodehazrd said:
I had that issue with some serious ak47
The sativa leaning girl i liked best autoflowered after a while in veg. It was not just one but a half dozen cuts all did that. I think it could have been the cfl lights I use for veg. I read on this forum I on Ace page Dubi said t5 lights would help that.
I just moved on to genetics that like my setup. Will go to LED's as I replace the lamps.:smoke out:
Click to expand...

Mine are under LEDs. Yeah, it seems some just auto and some are fine for a bit, others longer. I feel now if they start to flower, let em flower as I don't want to stress em out and confine them. I will make seed with the ones that seem to handle my ghetto conditions! ha!
 
Rodehazrd

Rodehazrd

Well-known member
Looking back I was having some cold weather and having trouble staying above 60 , I also didn't give enough nitrogen either I think so there were other stresses. Cant blame Serious all the other sisters were easy cloners and held true and the original one did great from seed . I keep the babies on a heat mat now and they like me for it.
 
N

nksv

Member
yeah, my issues were always during winter...and i am keeping ACE sativas! haha, but most of them make it, just a few decide 'dude, flower me out, this sucks' haha
 
G

Gr33nSanta

a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of clone, .. .that s how I do it, ... my most important one I like to write ''mom'' on the tag as well for the best clone with the most beautiful root so I know next round if I only a few clones I should take them from that one plant.
 
I

I wood

Well-known member
Gr33nSanta said:
a clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of clone, .. .that s how I do it, ... my most important one I like to write ''mom'' on the tag as well for the best clone with the most beautiful root so I know next round if I only a few clones I should take them from that one plant.
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I agree that this is a good way to go.
Two of my favorite plants are twenty years old this year and just the same now as when started.
There is one other thing I do to avoid cloning a less than healthy plant. With a red sharpie I mark the tag of any plant that has wilted or been stressed in any significant way, no clones from red tagged plants unless it is the only copy left.
 
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G

Gr33nSanta

This is new to me, cloning is so easy with the cloner that it only makes sense to do it this way.

I personally do not believe in degradation, dna is dna, I have never heard about apple growers talk about this phenomena. Unless they get a disease like PM . But again I would think a clone of a clone of a clone would be your best shot at cleaning a cutting.

When people say the plant has changed over the years and it's not the same anymore I think it has more to do with the grower's growing technique changing... who is growing the same way they were 5 years ago?

Finally, 2 of the most respected breeders in the US do the clone of a clone of clone thing, think subcool and bodhi. Most respected by me anyway, lol, I really like that their seeds are produced organically.

Ive got 20 moms in a baby garden right now and it's a bit overwhelming, I can't imagine bodhi has something like 300 moms / dads he has to keep cloning and transplanting, year round!

Finally, in my case 20 ''mothers'' would take way too much space, plus I only ever need 2 or 3 healthy cuttings of each, not 50....
 
S

St. Phatty

Active member
Waking up slowly here or I'd post the pics.

Had 2 plants REALLY stand out in this year's outdoor.

One of them Bay Dream (from Grand-daddy Purple seeds, Ken Estes) x Apollo 11.

Started flowering August 1 - and still going - like she's got some Haze in her, with a meaty Indica branch structure.

BUT THE MOM's ... if they survive.

I took a second batch of clones and both rooted. But the plant was in flowering. One clone is looking like she ain't going to make it.

The other is - and the pics of the struggling clones, to be mother plants, ain't pretty.

It's better to have the clones, to grow mother plants from, than to watch a great plant die leaving no clones behind.
 
M

mushroombrew

Active member
Veteran
St. Phatty said:
Waking up slowly here or I'd post the pics.

Had 2 plants REALLY stand out in this year's outdoor.

One of them Bay Dream (from Grand-daddy Purple seeds, Ken Estes) x Apollo 11.

Started flowering August 1 - and still going - like she's got some Haze in her, with a meaty Indica branch structure.

BUT THE MOM's ... if they survive.

I took a second batch of clones and both rooted. But the plant was in flowering. One clone is looking like she ain't going to make it.

The other is - and the pics of the struggling clones, to be mother plants, ain't pretty.

It's better to have the clones, to grow mother plants from, than to watch a great plant die leaving no clones behind.
Click to expand...

Put them in 24hrs light. And foliar feed Nitrogen. May take a month to reveg. But if you can keep it alive with foliar it will make it.
 
B

Betterhaff

Well-known member
Veteran
I grow mostly outdoors but do keep bonsais of keeper plants (or individuals I like). Since the outdoor cycle is really just one I don’t have a need for a lot of clones like I would if I was doing 3 or 4 indoor cycles.

So I keep small plants in veg over the winter and will take cuts late winter/early spring to get them some started for the upcoming season. I usually will put the over wintered bonsai out too and just start the process of making a new bonsai to preserve with one of the cuts. If I have to I can also take a cut from an outdoor plant before flower but I like to make sure I already have the genetics backed up in case something happens to the outdoor plant.

Some of these plants I’ve been growing this way for years.
 
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