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Soil amending/mineralization question

Fiddynut

Active member
Greetings friends.

I want to move toward a more natural approach to my grows. I've been getting what I think are calcium and magnesium deficiencies in all of my grows so far. After a couple years of growing I want to improve my results and quality. If I add liquid cal/mag it seems to make things even worse. I'm using RO water because my tap water is very poor for growing.
After reeding some of what slownickel has written and others I think more available calcium is a must for my grows to improve. I keep thinking about a post by budrunner on high brix growing where he talks about using a mix of 6-5-3 CaCo3-soft Rock phosphate-gypsum to mineralize and charge the soil. I'm hoping that I can use this formula or something similar to get my bag soil working better. His recommendation is to use 1 cup of the 6-5-3 mix for 2 cubic feet of soil.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of mineralization that can share thoughts with me?

I'm having problems finding the CaCo3 but I picked up a box of crushed oyster shell that I was hoping to substitute for the CaCo3. Any input on this would be appreciated.

Last question is how will adding this mix to my bag soil affect the soil pH and do I have to correct for this? I've been using happy frog soil but find its gotten really hydrophobic and have a couple bags of roots original and 707 that I want to mineralize.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions...Fiddy.
 

thailer

Active member
what type of compost are you using? adding the compost/biology that is needed helps to balance pH along with the lime sources. Using a premium compost brand or homemade will really up your game. I would avoid buying compost from home depot type stores and hydro stores that sell Ancient Earth. You might have to search for it but two brands that are decent are Malibu Compost and Olyfish Mountain Compost. Most compost you find in stores are made from wood products and its not as good as compost that uses a better variety of inputs.

When i first started I bought bagged dirt, some raw meal type fertilizers and that was it. my plants looked awful. Compost is essential.

If you are using compost, you could considering focusing on watering. that will help make nutrients available because if your pots are hydrophobic, that is going to cause plants to have problems like you're describing. wet dry cycles only worked when I was using bottled fertilizers but when i switched to raw meal fertilizers i noticed my plants grew better and were lush green if i didn't allow the soil to get so dry that it wouldn't take water readily. These two things really changed everything for me and solve similar issues.

you can find CaCO3 at any big box home center or garden center and its very affordable. When you find a bag of it, be sure to check the label and see if it's 93% or higher CaCO3. if not, it's a different type of lime like dolomite or hydrated lime. I've used the 6-5-3 and also the typical 1 cup per cubic foot of oyster shell or CaCO3 and noticed no difference.
 

Fiddynut

Active member
what type of compost are you using? adding the compost/biology that is needed helps to balance pH along with the lime sources. Using a premium compost brand or homemade will really up your game. I would avoid buying compost from home depot type stores and hydro stores that sell Ancient Earth. You might have to search for it but two brands that are decent are Malibu Compost and Olyfish Mountain Compost. Most compost you find in stores are made from wood products and its not as good as compost that uses a better variety of inputs.

When i first started I bought bagged dirt, some raw meal type fertilizers and that was it. my plants looked awful. Compost is essential.

If you are using compost, you could considering focusing on watering. that will help make nutrients available because if your pots are hydrophobic, that is going to cause plants to have problems like you're describing. wet dry cycles only worked when I was using bottled fertilizers but when i switched to raw meal fertilizers i noticed my plants grew better and were lush green if i didn't allow the soil to get so dry that it wouldn't take water readily. These two things really changed everything for me and solve similar issues.

you can find CaCO3 at any big box home center or garden center and its very affordable. When you find a bag of it, be sure to check the label and see if it's 93% or higher CaCO3. if not, it's a different type of lime like dolomite or hydrated lime. I've used the 6-5-3 and also the typical 1 cup per cubic foot of oyster shell or CaCO3 and noticed no difference.
Greetings thailer.

Thank you for sharing some of your knowledge with me. You bring up a great point about the compost and biology that makes things work. I have very limited knowledge about the soil biology and soil food web but have been doing some reading here on the mag. Thank you for the compost brand recommendations as well. My original plan was to focus on mineralizing the soil and stick with the bottled nutrients for a couple more grows as I learn more and move into a more natural method. But of I can get my hands on some good compost maybe I can get off the bottle so to say sooner. I have a feeling that just adding the rock powders to the soil without the microbes and biology isn't going to get me where I want to be anyway.
Your point about the biology helping with pH makes sense too. And I've also heard form others about how it's best to keep things moist with a living soil as well. The wet/dry works ok with salt based frets sometimes but seems to be a big cause of stress with my plants.
Thanks again for sharing this with me. I hope this is the beginning of my jurny to more natural grow methods and better results...Fiddy.
 

Ratzilla

Member
Veteran
Hello If i had some oyster shells i would put them in a sack and pulverize them ,the smaller the size of the particles the more readily uptake happens.
I buy the powered oyster shells myself.
I am of the opinion that 80% of ones base mix should be 65-70% Ca & 10-15% Mg.
If you get close to this 80% of your base mix being of this ratio your pH will be right where you want it 6.2-6.4
I also think that if there is a way for you to recycle your mix that you should to get the microbe-life working for you.
Adding back in a complete fertilizer or in your case Calcium and a magnesium after every grow.
I also add back all the leaves and stems from the previous grow ,after all these contain every thing that the plant wanted.
I also believe that being a good grower in using true living organic techniques that you must know that ultimately the plant is the conductor in deciding what it wants by what exudes it sends to the roots.
I build my pots with buried treasures of a complete fertilizer that feature low ratios of things trying not to go over anything that has higher ratios then a 8 IE; 3-8-8 bulb food or 0-3-0 soft rock phosphate a teaspoon or 3-4 on the bottom of your pots going into flower will give the roots the choice over mixing them in globally.
I also opine that liquids bypass the microbes which in turn retards their growth.
I mean if someone brought you a TV dinner every time your hungry would you bother working for a hamburger?
I also do a wet dry kind of cycle in using TLO techniques For I never let the medium dry out COMPLETELY.
Here is how I do it ,I look at a pot as having 3 layers a top a middle and the bottom.
I'll let the top go completely dry the middle will be going from moist to dry with the bottoms just going from wet to moist.
I know this from using a probe showing these dry-moist -wet levels.
I also water every time with a tea design to bring in more microbe life and see this new influx of bacteria eating the carcass of the life that died from the dry down.
In time you will discover what works for your growing techniques and you will think of it as your style.
Now we all need some style!
RatZ :tiphat:
 
Ill second the homemade compost. Start ASAP! I compost everything i can.

Vermicompost is even better. You can vermicompost indoors if you live in a small space.

I picked up a bag of oyster shells (the kind you feed chickens) for dirt cheep at the feed store. I add that to the compost pile to up the calcium content.

I also add calcium straight to the mix. Equal parts oyster shell powder, gypsum, and dolomite lime. Then used at whatever liming rate you desire. If you wanted a simpler liming mix, drop the dolomite and go with oyster shell and gypsum. Dolomite gets better if you recycle your mix...

If you are using organic soil, everything gets better as you recycle.

Vermicompost for the win!
 

Avinash.miles

Caregiver Extraordinaire
Moderator
ICMag Donor
Veteran
i prefer gypsum over oystershell meal/flour for Ca, gypsum doesn't push ph up like the ca carobonate
 

Smith111

Member
If a higher ph is needed, I would us lime rather than oyster shells. Oyster shells take a while to become available.
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
You should take a picture of the plant that looks worse after Cal Mg. Maybe your problem isn't low Ca, but ph?


There is either a Ca issue or a Mg issue. There is no such thing as a cal/mag issue. Those two minerals are antagonistic to one another and need to be adjusted/added separately. Liquid Cal/Mag WILL mess up your soil because there is always way to much Mg.


Excess Mg will cause a pH spike.
 

Fiddynut

Active member
Hello If i had some oyster shells i would put them in a sack and pulverize them ,the smaller the size of the particles the more readily uptake happens.
I buy the powered oyster shells myself.
I am of the opinion that 80% of ones base mix should be 65-70% Ca & 10-15% Mg.
If you get close to this 80% of your base mix being of this ratio your pH will be right where you want it 6.2-6.4
I also think that if there is a way for you to recycle your mix that you should to get the microbe-life working for you.
Adding back in a complete fertilizer or in your case Calcium and a magnesium after every grow.
I also add back all the leaves and stems from the previous grow ,after all these contain every thing that the plant wanted.
I also believe that being a good grower in using true living organic techniques that you must know that ultimately the plant is the conductor in deciding what it wants by what exudes it sends to the roots.
I build my pots with buried treasures of a complete fertilizer that feature low ratios of things trying not to go over anything that has higher ratios then a 8 IE; 3-8-8 bulb food or 0-3-0 soft rock phosphate a teaspoon or 3-4 on the bottom of your pots going into flower will give the roots the choice over mixing them in globally.
I also opine that liquids bypass the microbes which in turn retards their growth.
I mean if someone brought you a TV dinner every time your hungry would you bother working for a hamburger?
I also do a wet dry kind of cycle in using TLO techniques For I never let the medium dry out COMPLETELY.
Here is how I do it ,I look at a pot as having 3 layers a top a middle and the bottom.
I'll let the top go completely dry the middle will be going from moist to dry with the bottoms just going from wet to moist.
I know this from using a probe showing these dry-moist -wet levels.
I also water every time with a tea design to bring in more microbe life and see this new influx of bacteria eating the carcass of the life that died from the dry down.
In time you will discover what works for your growing techniques and you will think of it as your style.
Now we all need some style!
RatZ :tiphat:

Good morning Ratzilla.
Thank you for taking time to share some of your methods and wisdom with me. I've got a lot to learn, even about just calculating the base mix percentage, but every time I read from someone who has been successful it inspires me to keep learning and experimenting. It helps me to got motivated instead of getting overwhelmed and giving up.
Your point about reusing the mix to keep the microbial life is well taken. I really like the way you speak of the pot having the diffrent layers. It makes a lot of sense that you can then layer some of the nutrients and minerals. You are right that we all need some style:)
 

Fiddynut

Active member
Ill second the homemade compost. Start ASAP! I compost everything i can.

Vermicompost is even better. You can vermicompost indoors if you live in a small space.

I picked up a bag of oyster shells (the kind you feed chickens) for dirt cheep at the feed store. I add that to the compost pile to up the calcium content.

I also add calcium straight to the mix. Equal parts oyster shell powder, gypsum, and dolomite lime. Then used at whatever liming rate you desire. If you wanted a simpler liming mix, drop the dolomite and go with oyster shell and gypsum. Dolomite gets better if you recycle your mix...

If you are using organic soil, everything gets better as you recycle.

Vermicompost for the win!

Good morning OkieSmokie.
Thank you for sharing with me. I will check into this vermicompost for sure. Keeping it indoors would be good for me because I am worried about bringing bugs in from outdoors and I live in a climate where it's frozen outside for some months of the year. I have some room inside my basement for a couple of bins.
It's good to know that I can add Ca to the compost pile and the mix. I seem to be hearing that gypsum is a constant in these mixes while the other components change with people's methods. Also the recycling of the soil seems to be a must.
 

troutman

Seed Whore
Dolomitic limestone should be fairly easy to find at any garden centre.

It will provide both calcium and magnesium.
 

Fiddynut

Active member
i prefer gypsum over oystershell meal/flour for Ca, gypsum doesn't push ph up like the ca carobonate

Good morning Avinash.miles.
Thanks for your thoughts. Just wondering if you are using just gypsum or gypsum plus some combination of CaCo3 and or dolomite and or other liming agent?

^^^THIS^^^


The sulfur in the gyp will also add to your terps.
Good morning MJP.
Thanks for your comments. I've heard a lot of good things about sulfur and it's relationship with terps. I grow mostly bodhi strains that have loud terp profiles and look forward to getting even more out of them.

If a higher ph is needed, I would us lime rather than oyster shells. Oyster shells take a while to become available.

Good morning Smith111.
Thanks for your thoughts. I have heard that the shells can be a bit slow to break down. I am mostly trying to raise avalable Ca to the plants without raising or lowering soil pH.

You should take a picture of the plant that looks worse after Cal Mg. Maybe your problem isn't low Ca, but ph?

Good morning LadyGuru.
Thank you for posting. You are probably right about my plants having more than just a low Ca issue. I'm sure I get pH swings and lockouts as well. My lack of microbial activity dosent help make the Ca I have avalable and then I add cal/mag and the Mg works to lock out the Ca even more. I will find a few pics from recent grows if I can.

There is either a Ca issue or a Mg issue. There is no such thing as a cal/mag issue. Those two minerals are antagonistic to one another and need to be adjusted/added separately. Liquid Cal/Mag WILL mess up your soil because there is always way to much Mg.


Excess Mg will cause a pH spike.

Thanks MJP!
 

LadyGuru

Member
Ca should never lock out Mg.......

It will push it out, due to the size of molecules. Resulting in a lower base % of Mg.


Do you have a soil test?
 

Smith111

Member
Good morning Smith111.
Thanks for your thoughts. I have heard that the shells can be a bit slow to break down. I am mostly trying to raise avalable Ca to the plants without raising or lowering soil pH.

If the ph is at ideal levels, 6.4-6.8, then oyster shells, dolomite lime and cal mag will all raise your ph. Gypsum will keep your ph in the 6 range, and will become available right away.:tiphat:
 

Lacon13

New member
I use soft rock phosphate,ground oyster shell,gypsum dolomite as well as compost in my soil mix. I let it cook for a month to a month and a half before planting. Usually stays within ph range. Any calcium issues I make water soluble calcium out of egg shells and brown rice vinegar. Crush egg shells and brown slowly in a skillet or oven. Once slightly brown not burnt..mix one part eggs shells to ten parts brown rice vinegar...let sit for 7 days. The egg shell will be dancing in the vinegar once activity stops in can be used. I let it sit 7 for preference. Use 2 to 4 mils per gallon.
 

DTOM420

Member
Good morning OkieSmokie.
Thank you for sharing with me. I will check into this vermicompost for sure. Keeping it indoors would be good for me because I am worried about bringing bugs in from outdoors and I live in a climate where it's frozen outside for some months of the year. I have some room inside my basement for a couple of bins.
It's good to know that I can add Ca to the compost pile and the mix. I seem to be hearing that gypsum is a constant in these mixes while the other components change with people's methods. Also the recycling of the soil seems to be a must.

You might also look at Bokashi composting. Lots of videos on YouTube but basically you can compost almost anything you can eat and you can do it indoors without bugs or any odor besides a slight vinegar-ish smell when you open the container. I made my own Bokashi composted for less than $20 with 2 5gal buckets (drill holes in the bottom of one and put it into the other bucket) and a Gamma lid (air tight screw-on bucket lid) - all available on Amazon. Basically you pour some dried fermented bran, called Bokashi into the bottom, add food and top each layer of food with some more Bokashi and a piece of Saran Wrap. You collect a juice in the bottom bucket that can be diluted and fed to plants and the fermentation compost method produces compost in a very short period of time compared to traditional composting.

This is NOT a substitute for vermicomposting but it IS another way to utilize your scraps and produce a wonderful compost for your garden. Also, it works with meat and fish, which is not good for vermicomposting. Just thought I’d throw that out there for ya; if you don’t mind a noob chiming in!

Lots of great info in this thread!

One thing I’m confused about, though, is your statement that adding cal/mag made your situation worse? If your problem is related to a cal or mag deficiency, I’m not sure how feeding cal/mag would exacerbate the problem. Is it possible that you’ve misdiagnosed your problem?
 

Fiddynut

Active member
Greetings friends.
Thank you all for some great info. I have to digest this and then try to put this information to use. I have some ingredients to source and some composting to do. Getting "off the bottle" isn't going to be easy but I'm really excited to start this voyage.

Ca should never lock out Mg.......

It will push it out, due to the size of molecules. Resulting in a lower base % of Mg.


Do you have a soil test?
Good afternoon LadyGuru.
No soil test because I've been using bag soil and bottled nutes. I'm hoping to keep this simple and since I don't really know how to interpret the tests I'd rather try without testing. I am aware that the only way to know for sure is to do a good quality test and wouldn't rule that out in the future.

If the ph is at ideal levels, 6.4-6.8, then oyster shells, dolomite lime and cal mag will all raise your ph. Gypsum will keep your ph in the 6 range, and will become available right away.:tiphat:

Greetings Smith111.
Another vote for gypsum. I'm that hearing a lot!

I use soft rock phosphate,ground oyster shell,gypsum dolomite as well as compost in my soil mix. I let it cook for a month to a month and a half before planting. Usually stays within ph range. Any calcium issues I make water soluble calcium out of egg shells and brown rice vinegar. Crush egg shells and brown slowly in a skillet or oven. Once slightly brown not burnt..mix one part eggs shells to ten parts brown rice vinegar...let sit for 7 days. The egg shell will be dancing in the vinegar once activity stops in can be used. I let it sit 7 for preference. Use 2 to 4 mils per gallon.
Good afternoon Lacon13.
I've heard about the egg shells and vinegar but you have done a great job of describing your methods. I had not heard about browning the shells in a fry pan before. Thank you!

You might also look at Bokashi composting. Lots of videos on YouTube but basically you can compost almost anything you can eat and you can do it indoors without bugs or any odor besides a slight vinegar-ish smell when you open the container. I made my own Bokashi composted for less than $20 with 2 5gal buckets (drill holes in the bottom of one and put it into the other bucket) and a Gamma lid (air tight screw-on bucket lid) - all available on Amazon. Basically you pour some dried fermented bran, called Bokashi into the bottom, add food and top each layer of food with some more Bokashi and a piece of Saran Wrap. You collect a juice in the bottom bucket that can be diluted and fed to plants and the fermentation compost method produces compost in a very short period of time compared to traditional composting.

This is NOT a substitute for vermicomposting but it IS another way to utilize your scraps and produce a wonderful compost for your garden. Also, it works with meat and fish, which is not good for vermicomposting. Just thought I’d throw that out there for ya; if you don’t mind a noob chiming in!

Lots of great info in this thread!

One thing I’m confused about, though, is your statement that adding cal/mag made your situation worse? If your problem is related to a cal or mag deficiency, I’m not sure how feeding cal/mag would exacerbate the problem. Is it possible that you’ve misdiagnosed your problem?

Greetings DTOM420.
Thanks for letting me know about Bokashi composting. I have not heard of this before but it seems like it would be a good fit for my situation. It sounds like a simple way to make some great compost for teas.
You may be right that I've misdiagnosed my plant issues. I might have other issues and probably do. I'd say that my temps, humidity and air exchange are all good so I don't think it's an environment issue but rather a feed/nutrition/pH issues. All that points to my soil and nutrients being out of balance. Could be just as simple as salt build up or something. In fact every time I see a deficiency in my leaves and try to correct for it it seems to get worse. All of this has led me to want to learn a more natural method and that's what I'm trying to learn about here. What I've read so far is that all this mineralizing is to get Ca avalable to the plant because everything moves with Ca.
 

YukonKronic

Active member
You should pick up the "teaming with" series of books by Jeff Lowenfels... teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are both really useful to give an idea what's happening in your soil and how it moves into your plants.

Calcium is very important but there are many factors influencing plant health and nutrition. For instance I believe too much phosphorus can impede Calcium uptake as can low temperatures.
Do you have a method to test ph? If you have been resorting to "a little more of this or maybe that I guess" to fix your plants then you probably over saturated your soil with Nutrients especially considering bottled Nutes are MEANT to be strong so you get $ worth from the bottle.

I'm thinking JUST water at correct PH for at LEAST a couple days maybe more depending on plants size. If you over fertilize it can kill your plant in hours if your plant gets hungry it will take a LOT longer to die.
Look at your roots often. Are they moist? Are there dry pockets? Is it soaking dripping and mucky smelling? Keep in mind that roots need oxygen as well as water and food.

Plants that seem always to have dry spots in rootball need to sit in a water dish for a half day or so... peat can become hydrophobic when it dries too much...

SlowNickel has interesting things to say on Calcium saturation and soil CEC.., I recommend it more to understand CEC than Ca at this point for you but still interesting. Organic soils need time to establish too.. don't try to push too hard or it goes bad long term. Organic growing has been very rewarding for me but definitely requires some patience for the learning and the growing (pun intended) process.

JoeFresh has a really good guide to nutrient deficiencies and problems posted here too..
 
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