Dudding / Perpetual Sick Plants

Fakir,
Realmente llevo estudiando esto como unos 8 de años de una manera muy intensa.
No te puedes ni imaginar la cantidad de trabajos que he leído, el problema de los virus como ya tú sabes es que causan distintos síntomas dependiendo de si hay varios virus en el huésped de las condiciones climáticas y de la genética por eso es tan difícil su detección.
Es casi imposible limpiar el entorno yo por lo menos no lo he conseguido ni creo que se pueda conseguir a no ser que tengas un laboratorio con filtros HEPA y un estricto protocolo de entrada y salida.
he leído de muchísimos casos que lo han cambiado todo incluso se ha mudado de casa y siguen arrastrando el mismo problema.
otro problema es encontrar semilla en libre de virus o de enfermedades ya que todos los bancos presentan síntomas en sus catálogos es una vergüenza como sensi Seeds oil yumbolt nos muestran fotos en su catálogo de plantas infectadas claramente.
Algunos están limpiando la genética con un cultivo de meristemos es toda planta libre de virus y otros patógenos pero no implica que se puedan volver a infectar por lo que solo es válido para laboratorios muy especializados qué mantengan un estricto control algo que el cultivador doméstico no puede hacer.
Cuando ha sufrido este problema es muy fácil reconocerlo la ampollas en las hojas de repente salen hojas con un foliolo de repente salen hojas con cuatro escoba de bruja cómo le llaman por ahí hay una confusión genética en la planta y hace lo que puede para sobrevivir dentro de ella conviven la replicación del virus y la replicación de ADN por eso salen cosas tan raras y mutantes.
puedes encontrar hojas que se rajan por la mitad hoja que salen ya directamente comidas uno de los principales síntomas creo es que se parece mucho a la infección por ácaros también se parece mucho a una falta de calcio y magnesio ya verás que hay cientos de post preguntando si tienen carencia de calcio y magnesio porque se coge la planta un color verde claro.
al igual que muchísimas hortalizas como los tomates tendrán que sacar plantas resistentes a los virus plantas transgénicas las cuales están prohibidas en Europa.
Creo que al final el cultivo de marihuana solo lo van a poder hacer unas cuantas macro empresas que tengan la infraestructura necesaria para hacer cultivo de meristemos y un sitio completamente estéril o que se vendan semillas resistentes a los principales virus.
El principal problema que hay es que muchas veces coexisten varios virus dentro de la planta y van presentando unos síntomas su otro por lo que te puede llegar volver loco e incluso puede llegar a tener cosecha para estantes y tosas

https://mjbizdaily.com/how-cannabis-growers-can-fight-harmful-pathogen-hop-latent-viroid/

Latent but damaging
The biggest challenge in controlling hop latent viroid is the “latent” nature of the viroid.
It is possible for the pathogen to enter a production system and spread quietly while never showing any symptoms.
I have seen many plants test positive but show no symptoms, even over time.

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What appears to happen is a secondary stress occurs (heat/nutritional/pest) during vegetative growth and flowering, at which point 10%-30% of a crop can be lost to “dudding.”
It is also possible that no secondary stress is necessary. It’s possible that with time, even over years, a tipping point is reached and asymptomatic infections become symptomatic as viroid levels in the plants grow.
The transmission and progression of hop latent viroid in cannabis is under research right now across the country.

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Thanks for posting that Weird. I haven't been growing for a few years and haven't been keeping up with the new info.

There are pictures on the Dark Heart Nursery website shows a good example of an extremely dudded plant in veg that is suffering from the latent hop viroid. Before my plants looked like that they vegged fine and there were just a few dudded branches here and there. After a few crops the everything went to shit quick. Literally everything. I think this is when the fusarium and verticillium took over.

I have seen the occasional dudded branch in several gardens since about 2014 before I started losing crops and after. I wondered why some people could survive it and others couldn't. Now I'm thinking that my plants were so weakened by the hop viroid that my plants had no defense against the fusarium and verticillium and eventually succumbed to the pathogen. Maybe this is why my circle of friends all went down when others with the funky branches were able to persevere, just having the latent viroid and no others pathogen. My theory is that after the roots were dead from those pathogens they began to rot (pythium). I think by taking clones from the very tops of the healthiest looking plants that are affected by the latent hop viroid can get some people past it and they will just suffer reduced yields and a few weird branches here and there but will be putting themselves at risk of getting some other pathogen on their weakened plants.

I did throw out all of the affected veggie plants once I saw that they were quite different looking. I cleaned my space, switched from recirculating hydro to drain to waste and sourced new genetics. Had a decent crop and then some weird branches and eventually back to full dudding after a few more rounds. I moved started with new gear, bought seeds as per my story in a previous post, and the dudding started again after planting a contaminated seed one crop later. This dudding had no funky weird branches and died in about 5-10 days after noticing the damage and was likely just Fusarium, verticillium etc as my plants tested positive for those. Whatever strain of Fusarium oxysporum I got was as intense as it gets and I couldn't remove it from my area at all. Growing in my garage it was tracked onto the carpet in my house, the couches, the ventilation system, my car etc. I read some literature that said some Fusarium strains can persist for years without a host.

I do believe my plants had everything bad they could have. I bought clones from a bank in LA called Progressive Options and they gave me the sick plants. I was producing 500 clones a week for them for a month before I noticed the abnormalities and unfortunately I poisoned the community. My years of failure are karma for not being more diligent and responsible and not respecting the importance of providing a safe product for people in our community to enjoy. I just kinda went with the flow and apparently learned a life lesson. My apologies to the community for my contribution in spreading this awful plant plague. I obviously didn't sell them anymore after I noticed the abnormalities but still a bummer for everyone nonetheless. Progressive Options sold my 500 clones in an hour or two and thousands of others sometimes the same day. My plants showed signs of aster yellow, latent hop viroid, Fusarium, verticillium, pythium, broad mites and probably more. Progressive options really had everything brewing in their warehouse. I do blame myself and not them for my failure because I was warned at a young age to not take in plants from unknown sources.

I share my story again because I'm very much confident that there are multiple reasons for the dudding phenomenon and not just the latent hop viroid, which I just read about a few days back. Whether it's that or the Fusarium throw everything away and find a new grow space for a few years. Almost everyone I know lost their gardens and quit growing because they were all home growers and anything planted at home died after a few rounds due to the spores or whatever that we can't get rid of. Hot water at 160 degrees fahrenheit will kill the fusarium immediately and probably any of the viroid persisting in the garden but good luck getting it into the heating and AC system and every nook and cranny in your house and garage and car etc. I have always maintained a clean garden, no standing water, dead leaves on the ground or trays, no fungus gnats, etc. I bleached (now physan20) the crap out of everything, including walls and floor between crops and it didn't matter it still grabbed ahold and I couldn't stop it from eventually taking over or get rid of it. Good luck to and God bless anyone having these problems. Be diligent!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I share my story again because I'm very much confident that there are multiple reasons for the dudding phenomenon and not just the latent hop viroid, which I just read about a few days back.[/FONT]

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I agree. I had posting similar observations in the first duding thread a while back that there were a potential number of causes and some of the reports of duding could be conflating causes.

IMHO it is all about vectors and the procedures relative to one's operation to manage them properly and within that context.

Weird said:

I agree. I had posting similar observations in the first duding thread a while back that there were a potential number of causes and some of the reports of duding could be conflating causes.

IMHO it is all about vectors and the procedures relative to one's operation to manage them properly and within that context.

Click to expand...

Bumped my head pretty good a few years ago so I can't remember the details of the original thread (haven't searched for it yet) but I do remember I was the first to post lab results after so many guesses from the community. Hopefully people will find something useful in it.

I haven't been growing for about four years but any garden I go around now people think I'm nuts because I'm always preaching about cleanliness and potential for disaster if they keep doing things the easy way. Of course bringing in clones is my #1 gripe. When I move out of where I'm at now and start growing again I can't wait to employ the new protocol I developed years ago before the accident that changed my trajectory. Weird, your second paragraph is spot on (first one is too). It's important people know what's out there so they can take the proper steps and create procedures to protect themselves from it.

Totalmente cierto

Estoy viviendo lo mismo.

vulcanofilo said:

Fakir,
Es casi imposible limpiar el entorno yo por lo menos no lo he conseguido ni creo que se pueda conseguir a no ser que tengas un laboratorio con filtros HEPA y un estricto protocolo de entrada y salida.
he leído de muchísimos casos que lo han cambiado todo incluso se ha mudado de casa y siguen arrastrando el mismo problema.

Click to expand...

Entonces Vulcanofilo, una vez has empezado de cero, el problema viene por hongos vasculares o las plantas empiezan a tener amarilleamiento y crecimiento anormal?

Voy a empezar una tirada desde semillas para ver si consigo aislarlo durante los meses que esten vivas y que no se infecten, cambiando protocolos y maneras de trabajar. Haré un diario de cultivo por si quieres echar un ojo.

Saludos.

Weird said:

https://mjbizdaily.com/how-cannabis-growers-can-fight-harmful-pathogen-hop-latent-viroid/

Click to expand...

Weird said:

I agree. I had posting similar observations in the first duding thread a while back that there were a potential number of causes and some of the reports of duding could be conflating causes.

IMHO it is all about vectors and the procedures relative to one's operation to manage them properly and within that context.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link and quotes Weird, for real this is a hell of a problem. Looks impossible to keep it away unless you got white room sterile conditions for a couple months at least... If you got any kind of pest or external stress tis easily gets out of control.

Regards.

Principante8 said:

I did throw out all of the affected veggie plants once I saw that they were quite different looking. I cleaned my space, switched from recirculating hydro to drain to waste and sourced new genetics. Had a decent crop and then some weird branches and eventually back to full dudding after a few more rounds. I moved started with new gear, bought seeds as per my story in a previous post, and the dudding started again after planting a contaminated seed one crop later. This dudding had no funky weird branches and died in about 5-10 days after noticing the damage and was likely just Fusarium, verticillium etc as my plants tested positive for those. Whatever strain of Fusarium oxysporum I got was as intense as it gets and I couldn't remove it from my area at all. Growing in my garage it was tracked onto the carpet in my house, the couches, the ventilation system, my car etc. I read some literature that said some Fusarium strains can persist for years without a host.

I do believe my plants had everything bad they could have. I bought clones from a bank in LA called Progressive Options and they gave me the sick plants. I was producing 500 clones a week for them for a month before I noticed the abnormalities and unfortunately I poisoned the community. My years of failure are karma for not being more diligent and responsible and not respecting the importance of providing a safe product for people in our community to enjoy. I just kinda went with the flow and apparently learned a life lesson. My apologies to the community for my contribution in spreading this awful plant plague. I obviously didn't sell them anymore after I noticed the abnormalities but still a bummer for everyone nonetheless. Progressive Options sold my 500 clones in an hour or two and thousands of others sometimes the same day. My plants showed signs of aster yellow, latent hop viroid, Fusarium, verticillium, pythium, broad mites and probably more. Progressive options really had everything brewing in their warehouse. I do blame myself and not them for my failure because I was warned at a young age to not take in plants from unknown sources.

I share my story again because I'm very much confident that there are multiple reasons for the dudding phenomenon and not just the latent hop viroid, which I just read about a few days back. Whether it's that or the Fusarium throw everything away and find a new grow space for a few years. Almost everyone I know lost their gardens and quit growing because they were all home growers and anything planted at home died after a few rounds due to the spores or whatever that we can't get rid of. Hot water at 160 degrees fahrenheit will kill the fusarium immediately and probably any of the viroid persisting in the garden but good luck getting it into the heating and AC system and every nook and cranny in your house and garage and car etc. I have always maintained a clean garden, no standing water, dead leaves on the ground or trays, no fungus gnats, etc. I bleached (now physan20) the crap out of everything, including walls and floor between crops and it didn't matter it still grabbed ahold and I couldn't stop it from eventually taking over or get rid of it. Good luck to and God bless anyone having these problems. Be diligent!

Click to expand...

Principante8 said:

Bumped my head pretty good a few years ago so I can't remember the details of the original thread (haven't searched for it yet) but I do remember I was the first to post lab results after so many guesses from the community. Hopefully people will find something useful in it.

I haven't been growing for about four years but any garden I go around now people think I'm nuts because I'm always preaching about cleanliness and potential for disaster if they keep doing things the easy way. Of course bringing in clones is my #1 gripe. When I move out of where I'm at now and start growing again I can't wait to employ the new protocol I developed years ago before the accident that changed my trajectory. Weird, your second paragraph is spot on (first one is too). It's important people know what's out there so they can take the proper steps and create procedures to protect themselves from it.

Click to expand...

Hey Principante many thanks for taking your time for writing your experience and sharing it with us. I noticed a low root developement compared to last years and some start to die gradually, stimulating rooth system is very important when you argue with dudding or the plant will start to weak daily... I was looking for vascular fungui in the base of the stems and did not found anything at the moment, have a lot of pots to watch closely yet, but anyway the importance of keeping room clean is something to do weekly, if no daily... Tossed all my mothers out yesterday and starting a new run from seed, cleaned everything with bleach and and antifungical/pathogen house cleaner, i grow in my living room and have a pet and dont feel comfortable about Physan20 and toxic stuff... My only chance is to quarantine everything in different rooms, and toss all the fucked plants out. I would have time in summer to sanitize everything and start from seeds next season, will pop the less important stuff to see if continue having problems or i can manage it...

I'm Gonna start a journal about the new grow from seed and trynna see if the plants can end flowering without dudding and yielding a decent quality product and not hay. If some of you want to take a look you are all welcome. :friends:

Regards.

Hi Fakir720,

Best of luck on the next seed run. I think you will do just fine. It might take a few rounds before the disease takes over again if you weren't able to eradicate it from your grow environment. Whenever associates or myself ditched everything and started over there was much luck to be had for a short time. My hope is that you have something different, or at least less of a disease cocktail than what we had.

My basic plan before I stopped growing was to just purchase clones from a known clean source every round and suffer the possible 15-20% or so reduction in yield and the cost of cuttings. The first round and sometimes the second went pretty good after removing all of the affected plants and sanitizing the area. I'd say maybe it was A to B+ quality and not AAA+ like normal but still good enough to get paid so I could eat and pay the bills. My solution to this problem was going to be to add more lights to make up the difference. The disease infested clones I bought from the LA warehouse were an obvious problem and I don't think I'd ever buy publicly available clones again, but I do have friends that have clean genetics. Now in theory this sounds like a terrible idea, and it is as far as the long term goes. The only real fix in my particular situation would have been to move the grow to a new location (again) and start from seed (again), being more careful somehow than I previously was.

After seeing the diseases in several friends and associates gardens, and in four separate locations in my own gardens 100's of miles apart at different times over the course of a few years, I finally understood that starting from seed would not work in my situation. The reason for this in my opinion is it just takes waaay longer to get the plants into flowering and during those extra few weeks the plants were getting infected by whatever disease, or pathogen, or viroid I couldn't previously remove from my area. I would usually veg for 14-21 days from rooted clone and grow 3-7 plants dependant upon the cultivar in a 4'x4' space under a traditional Hortilux 1kw bulb. Growing from seed meant the tiny root systems were exposed before they ever had a chance at a healthy life. Then to get them the same size I'd usually induce flowering at, it would take something like 45 days from cracking the seed. So that's and extra 3-4+ weeks for a plant to live in an environment that will eventually kill it. 10-12 weeks total time in grow space vs 15 weeks is significant I think. An obvious downside to this is that a known clean source can be dirtied up really quick as they may lust over the flavor of the week clone they read about online and bring an infection into their own rooms.

I do believe my plan would have been a success however I couldn't employ it completely before I crashed my car, broke my back, suffered a TBI, ran out of money and moved in to my Grandmother's house to help her out (she was quite a bit of help to me also). I can't leave her behind to start a grow any time soon, but eventually I'll be back at it and thankfully I'll be starting completely from scratch with new genetics, new location, new gear, new mindset

In regards to physan20, the company says it's safe for dogs to be around it. I can't speak for them but I hope it's true. Like bleach in it's undiluted form, it is dangerous before being added to water. It's quarternary ammonia which is used in hospitals and such. From the information I could gather physan20 isn't used in hospitals but other brands of quarternary ammonia are. According to the web, medical professionals refer to it as 'quats'.
I've included msds link and a picture from their site. There might be other brands to look into that may be more safe. Physan20 is marketed towards plants but has similar ingredients to other products that aren't. I suppose whatever you use would be great if it kills Fusarium and verticillium.

For some reason I can't post the MSDS pdf link for the physan20 but it's easy to find.

Principante8 said:

Hi Fakir720,

Best of luck on the next seed run. I think you will do just fine. It might take a few rounds before the disease takes over again if you weren't able to eradicate it from your grow environment. Whenever associates or myself ditched everything and started over there was much luck to be had for a short time. My hope is that you have something different, or at least less of a disease cocktail than what we had.

I do believe my plan would have been a success however I couldn't employ it completely before I crashed my car, broke my back, suffered a TBI, ran out of money and moved in to my Grandmother's house to help her out (she was quite a bit of help to me also). I can't leave her behind to start a grow any time soon, but eventually I'll be back at it and thankfully I'll be starting completely from scratch with new genetics, new location, new gear, new mindset

In regards to physan20, the company says it's safe for dogs to be around it. I can't speak for them but I hope it's true. Like bleach in it's undiluted form, it is dangerous before being added to water. It's quarternary ammonia which is used in hospitals and such. From the information I could gather physan20 isn't used in hospitals but other brands of quarternary ammonia are. According to the web, medical professionals refer to it as 'quats'.
I've included msds link and a picture from their site. There might be other brands to look into that may be more safe. Physan20 is marketed towards plants but has similar ingredients to other products that aren't. I suppose whatever you use would be great if it kills Fusarium and verticillium.

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Hey Principante, thanks again for answering. Looks like the last time i popped seeds they were infected pretty fast by whatever is going here, but i had no clue about what was it yet.

I'm trying to keep the new ones apart, but its so difficult to me as tents are next to each other and one of the tents is infected and has some gnats and thrips and the clean one has the zip broken so imagine... Hope they don't get attacked by whatever is going on there till late in flowering...

I hope you are getting better on your back and wish that you are able to grow soon again, taking care of our old ones is important, that only speaks good things about you...

About the Phisan 20 y cant get it in my country without paying excessive shipping cost, will try to find something similar sold here or will buy phisan later whenever im not so poor lol.

Just trimmed the infected moms, cleaned again the tent and gonna spray them with some neem and soap. Bought some yellow and blue glue traps and some Gnat-Off for trying to mantain the population as low as possible.

Pics of the first dud I ever found, Delicious Seeds Marmalate regular freebies. Circa 2017-2018

Regards.

Hola everybody

Is there anyone left to discuss about the dud subject ?
looks like everyone been disconnected for a while now

Sorry, I just saw this thread. I don't think it's a virus if you have any other plants in the area that is not infected. When a virus like fusarium wilt hits a growing area the plants die within a few days or a week. Also, I don't see the leaf distortion you see with other viruses on your plants.

You are not buffering your plants enough and you are drying out before hydrating your plants. That's why you are only having this problem with a few plants. Raise the cal mag to 80 ppm instead of 20 ppm and water more frequently with a low ppm nutrient in with every watering so the plants can get what they need. When you feed and then water, instead of feeding with "every watering" you can get yellowing leaves on some plants. .

Creeperpark said:

Sorry, I just saw this thread. I don't think it's a virus if you have any other plants in the area that is not infected. When a virus like fusarium wilt hits a growing area the plants die within a few days or a week. Also, I don't see the leaf distortion you see with other viruses on your plants.

You are not buffering your plants enough and you are drying out before hydrating your plants. That's why you are only having this problem with a few plants. Raise the cal mag to 80 ppm instead of 20 ppm and water more frequently with a low ppm nutrient in with every watering so the plants can get what they need. When you feed and then water, instead of feeding with "every watering" you can get yellowing leaves on some plants. .

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wrong advice
and were not speaking about a virus here, more a viroid
it's different
if you never experienced the dudding you can't understand what it is
a bit of calmag will not solve this issue
calcium deficiency is easily recognisable
rust spot on middle leaves

same for magnesium, displaying interveinal chlorosis on intermediate leaves

Mano Verdo said:

wrong advice
and were not speaking about a virus here, more a viroid
it's different
if you never experienced the dudding you can't understand what it is
a bit of calmag will not solve this issue
calcium deficiency is easily recognisable
rust spot on middle leaves

same for magnesium, displaying interveinal chlorosis on intermediate leaves

Click to expand...

Thanks friend.