DANK_BOTANIST
Member
TAGGED for later studying....
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Indoor Vertical Grow Systems 101
- Thread starter MyGreenToe
- Start date
vicious bee
Member
First I'm not trying to troll. If your getting a lot better yields I'm interested and trying to nail down exactly what is causing this so I can see if it will fit into what I'm doing. I looked some more and my numbers are too high for reflectivity of flat white paint more like 75-85% of the light. I have no problem with reflector heat causing loses. Maybe that's the primary loss. If so you can expect to get 25 to 15% better yield from stopping that loss.
The diagram at the beginning is geometry per room size and has nothing to do with the question. You could make the normal room bigger to match the square footage of the vertical and still get the same lumens per square foot. I see many people saying "r squared light rule". This just means light intensity decreases as a circle or shpere gets bigger. The light doesn't disappear. Light doesn't lose anything by traveling a longer distance. Air does not dim light by a huge amount. If your light is bright enough doesn't matter how far away it is. What I'm trying to understand is if it's less light loss from the reflectors or is it hitting the plant horizontally that gives you bigger yield? Yes it's probably both but is the horizontal component bigger? Some reflective surfaces are 95% efficient. Maybe they could be used.
The diagram at the beginning is geometry per room size and has nothing to do with the question. You could make the normal room bigger to match the square footage of the vertical and still get the same lumens per square foot. I see many people saying "r squared light rule". This just means light intensity decreases as a circle or shpere gets bigger. The light doesn't disappear. Light doesn't lose anything by traveling a longer distance. Air does not dim light by a huge amount. If your light is bright enough doesn't matter how far away it is. What I'm trying to understand is if it's less light loss from the reflectors or is it hitting the plant horizontally that gives you bigger yield? Yes it's probably both but is the horizontal component bigger? Some reflective surfaces are 95% efficient. Maybe they could be used.
Take a flash light, and shine it at object A at 10 meters away
Now take the same flash light, but shine it at a reflector and aim it toward object B, which is at the same position with object A
Which object do you think will be brighter ?
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There are a few negatives about vertical
- Heat issues ( bare bulb )
- You have to wear eyes projections when enter the rooms.
I think thats about it, the first issue i could solve by bumping up cooling system
The second issue could be solve by wearing welding or heavy duty sun glasses
First run
Second run ( current )
Vertical all day everyday baby, if you're not getting the yield with vert, you're doing something wrong
cheers,
red.
Yeah, check out this Bogglegum i just took down... 0 popcorn.
BG8
BG8
Excuse me, but wtf are you talking about? The farther away from the source, the greater the diffusion of the light through the air, and the lower the intensity. It's not that complex of a concept. Now add a reflector to the situation, and no matter how efficient the reflector, you are adding to the distance the light has to travel, and diffuse. Additionally, most hoods have a glass lens, and the lens is proven to block light, especially if it's not kept clean. Now, take the plants, and put them around the light. More light is used, and less is lost to diffusion. The whole face of the plant receives equally intense light, creating nice thick colas. No popcorn (pruning is necessary). With horizontal lighting, the tops of the colas are receiving more intense light that the bottoms. I can go on and on, but really it comes down to personal preference. If you don't want to put in the extra work to pull off a vert grow, then don't. For me it is more natural now and easier than growing horizontal... not to mention I save on equipment cost... and put it into my scrubber. I get a big one for lots of airflow.
vicious bee
Member
Don't be nasty. I'm asking perfectly reasonable questions and diffusion does not make light disappear and become useless. Common sense will tell you that light doesn't get reduced by attenuation in air over the distance of a room. Makes no difference which way the light is "diffused" as long as your plants catch it by surrounding the light. If the only gain is from less losses in reflection off of the reflector then to me it's not as useful. I've seen some of the super yields that Heath Robinson got and I don't see just cutting reflector losses making this so. So I'm asking questions to find out why this is so.
B
Bob Smith
Is that what common sense tells you?
hahaha! indeed!^^^^
you increase your yield by increasing your CANOPY SURFACE AREA
you still get the same yield per square foot, just you are using more square feet by utilizing space around the bulb and not just under it.
the fact that you dont get this means you are either thinking too hard or not hard enough
and light waves are a totally different topic btw.
^^sorry but none of that makes any sense. maybe to you it does, but no. just no.
i want what you're smoking
EDIT: you SHOULD NOT think in terms of lumens(watts?) per square foot when growing vertically... that is a flat garden concept only, i believe. also, if you have 3 1k's stacked vertically you are getting TONS more lumens than just growing under one bulb with a reflector ... are you getting it yet?
you increase your yield by increasing your CANOPY SURFACE AREA
you still get the same yield per square foot, just you are using more square feet by utilizing space around the bulb and not just under it.
the fact that you dont get this means you are either thinking too hard or not hard enough
and light waves are a totally different topic btw.
^^sorry but none of that makes any sense. maybe to you it does, but no. just no.
i want what you're smoking
EDIT: you SHOULD NOT think in terms of lumens(watts?) per square foot when growing vertically... that is a flat garden concept only, i believe. also, if you have 3 1k's stacked vertically you are getting TONS more lumens than just growing under one bulb with a reflector ... are you getting it yet?
That room is a thing of beauty Red!!
Growing vertically is a very simple concept. I don't see the need for %'s and other documented proof. Once I hung my light with no reflector, it became very obvious that this was a more efficient way of growing.
Once you decide to go vert, there are still different ways to go about doing it. Find the best method that fits your need/environment.
Sometimes seeing really is believing. You may have to experience it for yourself.
And since everybody is throwin up pics.....
Strawberry Diesel from last run. Grown with 400's
Here's what the new run looks like.
MARLO
Growing vertically is a very simple concept. I don't see the need for %'s and other documented proof. Once I hung my light with no reflector, it became very obvious that this was a more efficient way of growing.
Once you decide to go vert, there are still different ways to go about doing it. Find the best method that fits your need/environment.
Sometimes seeing really is believing. You may have to experience it for yourself.
And since everybody is throwin up pics.....
Strawberry Diesel from last run. Grown with 400's
Here's what the new run looks like.
MARLO
vicious bee
Member
The essecence of what I would like to know is anyone getting 50%-70% or better yield? Let's try one more time to say I've tried. I can agree that you get more lumens from a vertical. I'm using lumens could be photons, candelas don't care. Because there is nothing directly impeding the path. One thing we will have to disagree on is there is little attenuation of light through air. If light was attenuated through air that would mean it was absorbed by the air. This does happen but the amount is very, very low. If it were not the Sun would heat the air so much we would burn. So it makes very little difference how far light travels when we're talking about 3 or 4 feet. In a horizontal grow 1/2 of the light is the same as vert. The other half loses roughly, let's say, 20% to reflector losses. I think the loss is less but I'll go with 20%. This would mean 80% of the light would reach the plants compared to vertical. If you've grown with both horizontal and vert. is the yield 20% better or much higher?
As far as CANOPY SURFACE AREA. You can get the same thing by making the floor area larger in horizontal and scroging the plants and/or adding more plants. I'm not saying it would help.
I'm wondering if it's not the light striking the plants from the side instead of the top that is helpful.
As far as CANOPY SURFACE AREA. You can get the same thing by making the floor area larger in horizontal and scroging the plants and/or adding more plants. I'm not saying it would help.
I'm wondering if it's not the light striking the plants from the side instead of the top that is helpful.
NO you are still wrong, sorry.
look at the diagram.
you can cover 64 sq ft. with 4000watts horizontal
if you "make the floor area larger by scroging or addin plants", then you need more lights.
how the fuck do you intend to cover 130+ square feet of horizontal canopy with 4k? you dont. thats what vert is for.
if you dont have an issue adding more lights to increase yield, then vert is not for you... vert is for maximizing your available light by increasing usable growing area. and yes, you can get much higher yeilds per watt.
im done with this.
Attachments
wisco61
Member
You can not understand the law of inverse squares all you want. Your lack of understanding regarding a basic law of the universe does not make it cease to exist.
You keep asking this question and people keep telling you why you are wrong to even be asking this. But that is not the answer you want to hear so you keep asking.
Wikipedia said:
S
SCROG McDuck
lowes or home depot... With the chicken wire, rabbit fencing, etc... It's called poultry netting. I'm moved on to rabbit fencing, b/c my plants are bigger...
Thanks bobble..
Put THAT idea to the test .... run a batch, put one plant 3 ft from the light and the other 15.
guess which one grows/yields more?
Or, more easily, move your hand from 4 ft away from a 600 or 1K light then slowly move your hand towards the light. What happens?
vicious bee
Member
I understand it perfectly. You seem to think getting closer to a light is magic. Think about it. The inverse square law has nothing to do with the TOTAL amount of light from one lamp. Getting closer to one lamp will not multiply the amount of lumens from the one lamp. A 1000W lamp is a 1000W. If you get closer to the lamp you have less area. Meaning less plant matter can fit in the same space. I won't bother you folks any more. You have no idea what I'm asking. Maybe you should crowd all your plants infinitely close then you will have infinite light, according to your calculations.
You also seem to believe that area in a vertical direction is magically different than area in a horizontal direction. True the light is closer but unless light is destroyed by distance it makes no difference if light moves horizontally or vertically,IN the SAME area.
VBMy English is not very good but ill try to explain this vertical growing to you one more time to see if you understand
The first question, why does people use hoods/reflectors
And been doing so since the 70's
Reflector helps guide the lights where it need to shine, and its every easy to do so
Its easier to cool a bulb in a hood vs a bare one
Its easier to LOOK at a horizontal garden vs vertical garden
And lastly, human dont change unless its necessary
So the very first people started growing with hoods to eliminate those trouble listed above, its easy growing
Now if those very first people start growing with vertical, hoods/reflectors will be the thing of the past as of today.
But that is not the case ....
Companies wants you to buy hoods/reflector keep you thinking its better then the bare bulb, why ? its help them get richer and richer since they can put out a new hood every year and guess what people do ? ( they'll buy it cuz the new hood is better LOL )
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Vertical is something you will not understand unless you try it out.
Now explain to me WHY using a hood ( 180 ) is better then vertical ( 360 )
And remember, the lumens/sqft is thrown out the window when you're doing vertical. You're no longer have a flat garden.
cheers,
red.
