Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

S4vvy · Oct 16, 2007

Never seen one fly yet. You guys got some wild ones :biglaugh:

I was looking at em under the 3x mag glass today. No wings on the many that i looked at. Altho it's stated to be rarer to see winged offspring from non winged parents it IS possible.

Gonna take cuts of everything in the next few days and dip my little plants that are too small to produce cuts and RE bomb the room

SBZ how are your plants doin now that it's been a few days since you dipped em

S4vvy · Oct 16, 2007

muddy waters said:
Let me recount my personal experience with these.

I live in South America and have had these and instinctively called them "root aphids" for years, not knowing what they really were. (They're the same brown-green version of this pest as described in the thread--in fact I even have the bolted version, small little flies that almost resemble fungus gnats, except that they seem to be dead everywhere. You find them on leaves, underneath leaves, stems, lights, anywhere above ground, motionless. Maybe this is an inactive phase?) They are definitely not limited to grapes, perhaps that UCDavis text is refering to a host-specific species or sub-species. These seem to like cannabis just fine.

Growing in containers with soil and soilless media, I have had an infestation that followed from one grow to another over two or three years. I have been battling other problems simultaneously and it honestly never really dawned on me how phucked it was until reading this thread as a matter of fact.

I will be pulling my grow soon and thus taking advantage to pull the plug on these mini-civilization of borg and root aphid that has been my cabs.

I am concerned they will follow me to the next location possibly in vermiculture bins? I haven't found any specifically in the bins but I do believe the flying versions could have found their way there somehow.

Not having access to bio-control methods, I really hope I can keep them out of my next grow.

Related question: If one wished to eliminate a pest by starving it of host (for instance, borg or root aphids feed on living plant tissue only), what would be the minimum time necessary to effect a complete die-out before re-beginning?

Question. Are you SURE that those green/red ones (the ones i have) have wings? I've never seen a flying one but now i'm kinda spooked

Also are you positive you don't have gnats AND root aphids. Most people have both unfortuantely.

When you move it'll be very easy to not bring them with you to your new spot. Just take clones of everything with rockwool cubes and put them in a safe location. Toss all old soil and plant material and if possible streilize the location with a disinfectant wipedown and/or insect fogger

As far as starving them i dunno really. I had some moms from a club and i chopped all the plant material leaving only the root mass in the pot. That was bagged up for weeks and when i reopened it to check for pest i didn't see any. In all honesty it just a casual check so they may still be there. Good luck with everything

muddy waters · Oct 16, 2007

s4vvy, the green and red ones do not have wings. I am assuming this is a larval stage and that the black, winged insects of a similar size are the mature organism. I could be wrong about that, but another poster mentioned this possibility and in my case it is supported by my observations.

I DO have gnats AND root aphids. If the black, winged things are not the root aphids at a later phase, they are something. They resemble gnats a little, but are definitely a different organism altogether.

Charles Xavier · Oct 16, 2007

Greetings Scay Beez

Thank you for your comment in response; your proactive stance and the due diligence displayed in respect to your information gathering and sharing are foretellers of your success. Irrespective of the control method selected, consistency and thoroughness of application is the key. You seem to be on a correct path; having to backtrack is not a backwards step if one keeps the final destination firmly in mind. What I mean to say is: don't be discouraged if the first eradication attempt is less than absolutely successful.

Greetings muddy waters

My condolences; yet, you are inspiring. In persevering to do a thing that you are passionate about, you elevate that thing into the realm of art.

Due to the complexity of their life cycle, the described members of the Phylloxeridae are all considered host-specific; Cannabis is a highly unlikely candidate. As (some-what) intimated in my previous post, 'Phylloxera' do not proliferate in indoor growing conditions; they are a relatively non-prolific pest. They are responsible for vast devastation but it takes years to achieve this. Normal pest control protocols in a small to moderate indoor environment would be enough to destabilize a population of this pest.

In regard to the question posed in post #20: Positive insect identification prerequisites an accurate response (naturally), but six weeks should be sufficient to disrupt the population cycle. However, I stress adherence to an active sterilization campaign.

Sincerely,
Charles.

aeric · Oct 16, 2007

I appear to have the same pest. Instincts tell me it is not phylloxera but some sort of aphid, speculation though. If i could catch one without crushing it i could look at it under my 100x. The jewelers loupe tells enough though. I noticed this post and within 2 days realize I have them, muchas gracias to the thread starter...saw one ant in the kitchen 6 weeks ago, immediately killed, then one more 1 week ago, so there is a connection.

Was looking at the medium after watering to see how effective the Gnatrol treatment has been for fungus gnat larvae and BLAM there they are. Looked like bits of coir dust on the top edges of the pots until they started moving, popping off of the sides like microscopic popcorn. Last time i had fungus gnats -gave them one treatment with mosquito dunks and they were gone, beginners luck, 6 months later they are back....this time they just won't go away. Dunks, more dunks, then Gnatrol, then Gnatrol every watering at full (40 ml) strength, finally seems like they might be slowing down. Nightmares of a new supergnat population resistant to BTI ensue. Thanks Muddy for suggesting they can look like gnats when flying, I won't assume so much when i see something flying now. In the meantime the plants look so healthy you wouldn't know there was anything wrong, even despite the gnats, so hopefully caught this early enough.

Got the Bug Buster O. So.....dilute at approximately 40% (15 ml?) water the medium with plain water, let drain a minute, soak pots in the BBO a few seconds, keep in a cool windfree locale, rinse a few minutes later in plain water....do i comprehend? How often? 1-2x a week, a month?

Thanks everyone for the info so far. Without this thread probably wouldn't have caught them, or even known what they were. Sorry for the rambling.

Scay Beez · Oct 16, 2007

S4vy: I haven't seen any fly yet either. I caught them pretty early and only saw them in two or three pots total. Everything looks very nice... no negative effects that can be seen so far. Even the metal haze and NL5XHaze clones that I root trimmed and drenched are looking perfect (very sensitive plants).

aeric: Fungus gnats have been pretty bad this year from what I keep hearing. Keeping your rooms lab clean and not letting them come back in is the best way to get rid of them. Also remove all organic debris in the soil. Sticky traps are great also. Fungus gnats are part of the decomposition process in nature so they are attracted to decomposing matter and especially plants with restricted root space. Pests go after the least healthy plants. Having hepa filters on your air intake is invaluable. I did a test of 50, 60, and 75% dilution(2TBSP/GAL) and had didn't have any problems. It smells less offensive than safers I have used in the past which smelled like death.

Food for thought - Tell all your hommies that the wine industry is nasty as hell almost as bad as the peanut butter industry. I had a friend that worked at a major winery in norcal and he said there were major bugs on the grapes they were mashing. He couldn't believe all the bugs. I wouldn't dare drink any wine from around this area. Yuppies don't care at all about nature except keeping their life support grapes alive and they use major amounts of nasty pesticides. At the same time, it takes a ridiculous amount of grain to make beer.

- sbz

Scay Beez · Oct 17, 2007

I just got back from getting some more bug buster o and I've been trying to find how often I should apply pesticides. The only life cycle I could find was on a page about corn root aphids and they said in the hottest part of the summer they could reproduce in 8-10 days. So drench every 6-7 days?

- sbz

S4vvy · Oct 17, 2007

If you dunked your plants in bbo they should all be dead. Never had to do a repeat treatment myself...

Scay Beez · Oct 18, 2007

S4vy: No $H!t? That easy? LOL at myself for freaking out if you are correct.

Well... I haven't seen any bugs yet and I'm keeping a close half shut eye out for em. I've got a bottle of BOB ready to deploy.

- sbz

Dusty Bowls · Oct 31, 2007

Scay Beez said:
Dusty: Nothing but a huge help bro! I'm quickly forgetting any past BS. I have 10 no pest strips on guard right now, do you think the flying ones will get past them? I'm going to take cuts to another location just to be safe. The only source of their life cycle I could find said that they spend 12-15 days in the soil. If that's true then it shouldn't be that hard. I'm going to vacuum today after moving everything around and keep it lab clean condition.

- sbz

Hey SBZ whats up man I'm glad a lil crap I went through and overcame could help you. Keeping lab clean conditions is the way to go my man...removing every granule of old possibly contaminated soil is your only way to not have em come back as all it takes is 1 nymph with these ****s and it quickly turns in to 100,000 of the little ****hairs.

I know its been a minute and you've over come them but I just wanted to throw out some opinion on the NPS strips, I personally do not ever put these in my gardens as I am more fearful of them than avid...I'm not sure if the gas they emit will **** with the flyers but I know that if you have them Whitmire Group makes Pyrethrin TR which is what you want to drop to kill the fliers.

Scay Beez · Nov 19, 2007

Alright... it's been ages since I updated my status. After a more thorough evaulation.. The BOB started to kill off some older fan leaves after about a week, so it does has some negative effects on the plants. I thought I was bug free after the first dosing but I found a lone root aphid on the side of one of the pots going on a walk. I dosed them again but this time with Azatrol. I talked with a bunch of locals because I know I'm not the only one that's had this problem. Everybody suggested the Azatrol and I even read that it can be used with beneficial nematodes. It has been three weeks and I haven't seen anything. I'm gonna dose it one or two more times and give it a week or two and I should be good to go. The azatrol made a few older leaves fall off but was way more gentile than the BOB. Feedings can be done with the drench which is a huge plus. It stays in the soil for 10-14 days so only a few doses are required while the nematodes are active and hard at work. Neem is also systematic and stays in the plant so a quick foliar spray (which strangely enough doesn't need spraying off the plant) will help a weak plant before drenching it. A+ product highly recommended! Worth the expensive price.

- sbz

S4vvy · Nov 19, 2007

Sup sbz. I have a small update for you. BBO used at 1TBSP per gal is working somewhat but not killing em all. Cuttings were dunked into the solution and altho there were many dead ones there were a few that didn't die. So far there's no damage to the leaves of my cuts but some small moms did get some damage (yellowing) to the fans. Also some plants showed that "purple stem" look but i'm now consdiering those issues to be a ph thang (some cuts weren't dipped and still had the lockout look. All were fed the same nutes :chin:

)

I'll give the Azatrol a shot. I wonder if they have any at Orchard. Later and thanks for the update

420cali · Nov 21, 2007

has anybody tried
Bayer tree and shrub

Scay Beez · Dec 29, 2007

Man this is the worst growing problem I've come across. Screw the holidays... I'm having to play dunkmaster. Depressing as hell.

I think the azatrol doesn't kill those crazy armored adults. They look like a spider gone terminator. After another dose of pyrethrum I have yet to find another one of those bastards. No flying adults spotted yet either.

I sealed up my veg room and put in c02 to try and speed growth up and it helped some but I feel the bugs are most damaging at higher temps so I have now vented the room and keeping it chilly.

420cali: What is your experience with bayer tree and shrub? Does it damage the plant at all and how bad if so?

I'm about to do yet another pyrethrum dunk because I saw another baby last night. I've found an organic brand Pyganic (1.4%) and it way more gentile to the plant than Bug-O-Buster (no PBO or peutrolleum crap). Its been over two weeks since first application and no leaf loss the plants are fine just overwatered from all this drenching. They also make a 5.4% like evergreen EC but organic.

- sbz

Scay Beez · Dec 29, 2007

Finally found some good info on their life cycle and some pesticide results. This will also give us an idea of which "root aphids" attack tomato plants.

http://www.extento.hawaii.edu/kbase/crop/crops/tomato.htm

The best page I've found yet:

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/gh-aphid.html

bobs your uncle · Dec 30, 2007

Here's a photo of what I think we all are talking about here. They're f u c k i n g everywhere.

Hey Scay and S4vvy, does this look like the same bug as yours?

I found some links suggesting at hot water drench is effective against these fcukheads. In fact, some states have enacted laws requiring you to certify that you have performed a HWT (hot water treatment) on your grape/vine cutting before you can transport or plant it.

WINGS!

Scay Beez · Dec 30, 2007

Those bugs look different from the adults I have. Yours have longer legs and they are green-ish. All the adults I have seen are solid black and look more like a spider than a stinkbug. The babies look like sugarbeet root aphids.

I'm seriously considering trying Bayer Tree and Shrub (Imidacloprid; same chemical as Advantage for pets). I hate using anything non-organic but I'd hate to loose years worth of collecting strains. I also think dunking plants with pyrethrum every two days for six weeks isn't the most environmentally friendly thing to do because of the high number of applications. I used the Steinernema carpocapsae nematodes but I think Steinernema feltiae would have been a better choice. I don't think neem or nematodes kill these heavily armored adults. I think I might go ahead and buy some and test it out on a few extra plants. I'd rather use one dose of something a little more harmful and be extra careful than dump pyrethrum down the drain for days.

- sbz

bobs your uncle · Dec 30, 2007

I thought mine where black also until I took the photo. I did a hot water drench a couple of days ago and it seems to of helped but I still see a few stragglers walking around. I know pouring hot water (130° - 135°F) sounds scary, but you follow with another drench of cooler water a few minutes later and the plants don't seem to mind at all. Google - hot water and root aphids or hot water and gnats and you'll see quite a few controlled experiments using different water temps and durations etc. Too bad I couldn't find any reference to using hot water on cannabis but at this point with my infestation I'll even try kerosene and a match.

How about H2O2 ?

I know I brought the root aphids and fungus gnats into my otherwise sterile grow via a bag of FF Potting Mix that was stored outside at the nursery. Big no no. I've seen post's about Fox Farm soil being loaded with gnats etc. but it has nothing to do with the brand and everything to do with how the bag was stored. Any bag of soil or soilless mix that spends any time outside is going to be infested. Canna, Pro-Mix, peat, whatever, if it's outside- it's f u c k e d.

My girlfriend almost puked when she saw this below. Kinda squeamish are we?

S4vvy · Dec 30, 2007

bobs your uncle said:
Here's a photo of what I think we all are talking about here. They're f u c k i n g everywhere.

Hey Scay and S4vvy, does this look like the same bug as yours?

I found some links suggesting at hot water drench is effective against these fcukheads. In fact, some states have enacted laws requiring you to certify that you have performed a HWT (hot water treatment) on your grape/vine cutting before you can transport or plant it.

WINGS!

Good lord! :biglaugh:

That's exactly what i have! Like SBZ, said maybe the legs on mines are shorter but that's them. That winged one is NASTY, dont have those... yet. I will try to hit a plant with hot water, then cool water after - i got a few extras i can sacrifice. Thanks for the pics and info

Scay Beez · Dec 31, 2007

I got some bayer tree and shrub granules. I took three extra clones in keg cups and put the following doses on them: 1/8tsp, 1/4 tsp, 1/2 tsp. Rates on the container were 2 1/2 TBSP per 5 gallon. Strains: Albert Walker, Cheese, Pukeberry. We'll see in a few days if this has any negative effect. Its been about 14 hours and so far so good.

- sbz

Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

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