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Old 05-16-2019, 07:29 PM #21
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Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
Glad to hear your working to accommodate consistent light spread by experimenting with different beam angles and LED arrangements. 99% of lights currently are designed to create a 1x1 hotspot of max intensity directly below and exponentially decreases as you travel in any direction, I feel this is the worst flaw in lighting tech. The lights are creating a footprint similar to HID: where you need to manipulate your canopy/plants in a bowl or upside down pyramid arrangement, with lowest growth directly below and tallest growth towards outside edges for optimal coverage.


One of the reasons we recommend using multiple smaller fixtures, is to alleviate the occurrence you referenced. The above graphs represent 4pcs 84X spaced 6" edge to edge (18" CTC) hung over a 4x4 test grid with readings taken every 6". By using multiple fixtures to distribute light more evenly, we can create larger coverage areas of high intensity light. Our new lights will follow this same concept, but with a wider dispersion angle that will make the intensity a lot more uniform. Notice that even at 12" hanging height our lights are calibrated to deliver only 1300 umol? Other fixtures at this height are delivering well above 2000. We design the output of our fixtures around practical application/use of the product so it can be used at a reasonable height while delivering ample intensity for all plant types.

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Since LED release their heat through conduction to the mounting surface using more diodes ran at less power means better heat dissipation, longer life expectancy, increased efficiency (total light generated per watt of power) and light spread from overlapping light sources. There are multiple benefits to utilizing many diodes, an equilibrium needs to be determined between performance and worth. I recommend people the Samusng lm561c strips over the lm301b for DIY because of the above reasons. lm561c single row 2 ft strip 72 diodes, lm301b less than 10% increase in light output and only 40 diodes per 2 ft strip. These lights are designed for industrial/warehouse lighting though and have merely been adopted by horticulturalists.
Yes, more diodes at a lower drive current with more spacing between diodes will certainly result in lower operating temps; however that in no way means "optimal" operating temps. Products like HLG don't even use a heat sink... They rely on passive cooling from the PCB and then affix it to a thin metal plate to build a large array. Generic Chinese boards loaded with the same LEDs and a heat sink, are operating at 65C (149F) at the heat sink and 80-85C (176-185F) at the solder junction of the LED. This is way above the optimal range which is 125F and below. For colored LEDs best to stay under 100F if you can, since reds decay faster than other colors. Hence why our model will not only have a heat sink, but one that is designed with purpose.

We also won't be using a single Samsung diode in our light or a single phosphor coated white. I don't believe in using inefficient technologies with poor spectral outputs/ratios, where a large majority of light created is never absorbed by the plant (aka wasted energy). We will either use a 2835, 3030 or 5730 package for our LEDs.

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Sorry if im throwing a wrench in your gears haha, hope some of it can be of use.

Another question I had:

Have you done any controlled testing with daily light integral to find what the max PPFD is under your lights and spectrum that the plants can use at atmospheric ~400ppm co2? Majority of the research and publications Ive found focus on using the sun or broad spectrum led.
The simple answer is no. The scientific community as a whole is very disappointing to me. Most researchers and their students study the arabidopsis plant rather than developing customized spectral ratios and outputs for commercially grown plant varieties like tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, basil, etc... Most of these researchers use whatever generic panels are being donated to their University, rather than building their own panels or partnering with an OEM like us to build them on their behalf. There is so little being done in terms of spectral testing or adjusting DLI, it's almost sickening to me.

For example cannabis has a LSP around 1500 umol. The optimal DLI is about 65 moles. And yet with our LED it seems that about 1200 umol is the LSP. I'd love to run tons of tests on a wide variety of plants to determine optimal spectral outputs, ratios and then LSP and DLI values of those spectra, but the time and cost involved, plus the people is too big a burden for one company to take on.

I am working with one grower at the moment where we are trying to answer some of these questions with lettuce. After a few more rounds we may have some good answers, but the testing only began about two weeks ago and we have much to compare.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:51 PM #22
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Here is the High PPFD Cultivation Guide pdf from Fluence:
(good baseline to go from since they are broad spectrum, Cannabis specific info also)

https://fluence.science/wp-content/u...de-9.27.16.pdf

Light intensity (umol/m2/s = PPFD) and C02 level required for max photosynthesis:



Temperature effect on photosynthesis:



Temperature and CO2 effect on photosynthesis:



Like I said earlier, 500 PPFD broad spectrum is all thats needed. 1300 umols is way overkill unless heavily supplementing co2...I think they could be much more efficient.

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The best results people achieve with DIY led seems to comes from the ability to maintain consistent intensity across the whole growing space. COB lighting with 1 per sq ft and Samsung lm561c strip's abilities to be built in square and rectangular shapes that fit the grow space evenly work really well with as low as 500 PPFD to the edges.
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Playing around outdoors again (current grow 2019 starts on post #75):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352271

Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265

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Old 05-16-2019, 08:03 PM #23
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All of these graphs would be appearing on our site if the wordpress developer finished the pages. CO2 is beneficial up until a point, as is temperature. More of one allows for more of the other, which will increase growth rates until they don't. It's important for people to know their are limits, which not all charts show.

I always advise customers to run 800-1000 umol in veg and 1200-1500 in bloom. I also advise people to run 1200ppm of CO2 and 95F ambient temps with RH at 60-70%.





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Old 05-16-2019, 08:52 PM #24
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I edited my previous post added Fluence's temperature and temperature/CO2 relation charts for max photosynthesis as well. Majority of my focus is towards atmospheric CO2 levels ~400ppm since that is what majority grows are using. Supplementing CO2 can make a dramatic difference in growth but honestly few utilize it.

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Yeah, 1g/w is a mythical unicorn with HID for 90% or more of growers.
Apparently Im a mythical unicorn along with a few others around here, but over 1 gram per watt is possible without co2 supplementation.
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For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
Playing around outdoors again (current grow 2019 starts on post #75):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352271

Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265

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Old 05-16-2019, 10:58 PM #25
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The best way is still testing in a growing environment with actual growers. But i love all the info im just testing my first led for Mars Hydro myself. After 20+yrs of growing beautiful plants indoors under MH/HPS it's hard to change. But these LEDs are a heck of alot easier to mess with, all the hoods and air cooling and stuff can be a pain in the ass. But just the first week using the LED its very persuasive, I can't wait to see the final results, that's what really matters.....yea I love a good spectrum close to the sun or hortilux bulbs but there's still plenty of research going on. But you guys have some nice LEDs Id love to put a huge plant under one for you I grew.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:48 AM #26
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The best way is still testing in a growing environment with actual growers.
We have done more side-by-sides against competing fixtures than any other MFR, many of which are in the link in my signature. We have a 4x4 side-by-side running right now against HLG (with a second one soon to begin) and two 126X vs 315W CMH tests starting soon (next 7-10 days). After we win those we'll do more.

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Originally Posted by wvkindbud38 View Post
But i love all the info im just testing my first led for Mars Hydro myself. After 20+yrs of growing beautiful plants indoors under MH/HPS it's hard to change. But these LEDs are a heck of alot easier to mess with, all the hoods and air cooling and stuff can be a pain in the ass. But just the first week using the LED its very persuasive, I can't wait to see the final results, that's what really matters.....yea I love a good spectrum close to the sun or hortilux bulbs but there's still plenty of research going on. But you guys have some nice LEDs Id love to put a huge plant under one for you I grew.
Mars Hydro is LG LED owned and operated by Mandy Hu and her brother. I did business with her for many years, until she decided to enter the retail space at wholesale prices to try and ruin the market for all her OEM customers like me that built her into a sizable company in the first place. So much back stabbing and greed in this industry, but very few people who care about making a better product. You'll get decent results with just about any LED these days, but as we are showing in the HLG vs HGL side-by-side right now, good isn't great lol.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:35 PM #27
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LED Delivery Update

So I just checked with DHL and my LED samples are coming on Tuesday. I will therefore do my LED testing on Tuesday.

Attached is a small preview of how we do our LED testing. Back in 2014 we searched for an integrating sphere that recorded measurements in umol/m2/sec. None existed. So I designed an 8" sphere, 3D printed it and created an integrating sphere that will give us relative umol output data.

The sphere is printed in white plastic. It is not light-tight. But what it does do is create an environment where the only variable being tested is the LED itself. All other parameters are identical from test length to amperage, internal volume, reflectivity, PAR sensor, etc...

The first round of tests will be on which package provides the highest performance using the same chips (2835, 3030, 5730). The standard chips we are testing are from suppliers I have used for years (epistar, epileds, bridgelux). We will also be testing Osram for 660/640.

The measurements from the testing will give me relative light output for each wavelength. For example the green might only deliver 20 umol in the sphere, while red is 50 and blue is 40. I will then use this data to calibrate a spectrum with 10% blue, 15% green and 75% red based on umol output, which will tell me how many of each LED I need for the PCB layout.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:16 PM #28
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How is measuring PPFD in your 8" sphere a more accurate representation of total light output than PPF or averaging PPFD readings over an area?

I like the way this pdf and Black Dog Led page explained it:

Understanding PPF and PPFD pdf:

https://www.inda-gro.com/IG/sites/de...and%20PPFD.pdf

PPF as µMol/S is the value that a grow lamp should specify for its total light output (Radiant Watts would also be appropriate), this would be similar to using Lumens for a regular area light.

PPFD is the primary measurement taken by a Quantum PAR meter and is expressed as a density over a unit of area, this would be similar to using Lux or Foot-Candles on a regular light meter

Black Dog Led PF vs PFD FAQ:

https://www.blackdogled.com/faq_pf-vs-pfd

A shower head can provide a useful analogy to explain the difference. If you put a balloon around a shower head to capture all of the water coming out of it, you can measure the total amount of water the shower head is putting out per second- its total flow rate, regardless of the angle or concentration of the various water streams. This is analogous to measuring total photon flux (PPF) from a light fixture.

If you take a small cup and put it on the floor of the shower, it will only capture the portion of water coming out of the shower head aimed at the area of the cup. This is analogous to photon flux density (PPFD). Moving the cup around inside the shower will make it fill at different rates- if you put it right under the shower head it will fill faster than if it is farther away, because the water flow is more concentrated close to the shower head.

So, photon flux density (PPFD) will change depending on where you measure it. If you get closer to the light source, PPFD will increase, and if you get farther away it will decrease. Total photon flux (PPF) is not measured at a particular point in space- it is counting all the photons coming out of the light.

When measuring light intensity with a PAR meter it is possible to get a higher PPFD reading than the total PPF for the entire fixture. For example, the total PPF of the PhytoMAX-2 1000 is 1485 μmol/s, but if you put a PAR meter one foot under the center of the light it will read 4944 μmol/m2/s (PPFD).

This is because the PAR sensor is smaller than the one square meter it is reporting the measurement for (the cup in the shower)- if the sensor was actually one meter square, at one foot away from the light it would be capturing virtually all of the photons the PhytoMAX-2 1000 puts out, and averaged over the entire square meter this would read 1485 μmol/m2/s (PPFD).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVOH View Post
open mind leaves room for growth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Green View Post
For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
Playing around outdoors again (current grow 2019 starts on post #75):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352271

Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265

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Old 05-18-2019, 11:18 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibechillin View Post
How is measuring PPFD in your 8" sphere a more accurate representation of total light output than PPF or averaging PPFD readings over an area?
It's not. I think you've missed the point. I use the data from the sphere to determine which LED packages are the most efficient, and also which LEDs of the same wavelengths (from different manufacturers) are most efficient. I use the relative data to calibrate how many LEDs of each wavelength I need to achieve my set 10% blue, 15% green and 75% red ratios, as well as balancing out the ratios of 660/640. After I build a prototype using this data, I then do PPFD readings over an area. I should also note that I was the first person to begin doing those tests and measuring our lights in umols instead of lumens 10 years ago... So when you quote companies like Black Dog I find it a little offensive considering the only reason most companies in the industry do things the way they do, is that I made it a standard practice. All the research I published back then became the book that everyone else studied to make and/or market lights. And yet most of them are still running around with a bunch of inefficient wavelengths or white LEDs...

Black dog doesn't have a clue what they're doing spectrally, never has optically, and has always used inefficient LEDs since day one driven at stupid high amperage levels.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:32 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HydroGrowLeds View Post
I should also note that I was the first person to begin doing those tests and measuring our lights in umols instead of lumens 10 years ago... So when you quote companies like Black Dog I find it a little offensive considering the only reason most companies in the industry do things the way they do, is that I made it a standard practice.
You wanna know what I find off putting? You are toting around like some revolutionary claiming credit for public released research that has been available for much longer than 10 years...
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Originally Posted by AVOH View Post
open mind leaves room for growth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Green View Post
For almost 50 years I've smoked weed to enhance reality, not to escape from it...
Playing around outdoors again (current grow 2019 starts on post #75):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352271

Science Of Lighting & Plant Reactions (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358147

Drying and Cure Process Explained In Depth (Sticky Thread):

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=358186

Pot Size, Root system and maximizing growth thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=344347

Silicon, The Misunderstood Element:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352413

Humic and Fulvic acid information:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265

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