Stupid or useless ingredients

jidoka said:

Make your own diluted liquid

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Teas work wonders.

BubbaBear said:

I've never seen any positive effects from root feeding silicate, I used potassium silicate for several years and orthosilicic acid products like Aptus Fasilitor for a couple years, I cut them out of my regimen and see no difference in my plants.

A few foliar feeds may help strengthen cell walls but but dumping silicate in your reservoir like everyone does just spikes your PH so you need extra PH down to get your PH in check and your plants can only take up about 1300 ppm of nutrients so your just feeding your plants extra bullshit taking the place of good old NPK.

If anything I've seen negative effects from feeding heavy levels of Fasilitor like Aptus tells you to do(double the dosage the first two weeks of flower to stop stretch) is what they instruct you to do, not only does that not work but it messes with the plants osmosis causing the plant to hold to much water making branches weak and brittle. Calcium is what you want for strong plants not silicate.

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It is expensive and you are right its hard to tell if it works. I only use 125 cc/50G. It does affect initial pH. But it also buffers pH. I actually save money in pH down while using it. I use about 1/3 the acid. Still trying to wrap my head around that.

I found Enzymes to be mostly useless. Granted they may have their use but in a grow where you veg your plant for 3 weeks and then go into bloom for a few weeks i find that Enzymes have no use. All they do is make the resevoir go bad really quick.

I do like me some Vitamin mixes. I really like hesi supervit. Some vitamins are in a highly organic nitrogen mix and also go bad quick in a resevoir. Supervit doesn't it seems to me and can be nicely dosed.

mushroombrew said:

It is expensive and you are right its hard to tell if it works. I only use 125 cc/50G. It does affect initial pH. But it also buffers pH. I actually save money in pH down while using it. I use about 1/3 the acid. Still trying to wrap my head around that.

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When something is really expensive and hard to tell if it works means you should ditch it. Especially dumping silicic acid in a reservoir is just throwing away money, it degrades with in a couple days.

Another fun fact about silicic acid is the guy that created Aptus Fasilitor and Mills Vitalize intended them to be used as a foliar fertilizer, which is insanely more economical to use than dumping it in your reservoir so it just degrades to nothing with in a few days. Mills Vitalize is made by Rexil Agro its listed as a foliar product its called AB Green. Here's a link if it works

http://www.rexil-agro.com/abgreen.html

Some where in here theres a thread where someone tested all the major brands of silica and silicic acid products and Agsil 16H the cheapest silica product on the market had way more silicic acid than even the silicic acid specific products. So save yourself a ton of money skip silicic acid products entirely and use silica products as a foliar fertilizer. Doesn't potassium silicate have to be broken down by microbes in order to be taken up by the roots anyways? That sounds like a pretty stupid and useless to me lol.

BubbaBear said:

When something is really expensive and hard to tell if it works means you should ditch it. Especially dumping silicic acid in a reservoir is just throwing away money, it degrades with in a couple days.

Another fun fact about silicic acid is the guy that created Aptus Fasilitor and Mills Vitalize intended them to be used as a foliar fertilizer, which is insanely more economical to use than dumping it in your reservoir so it just degrades to nothing with in a few days. Mills Vitalize is made by Rexil Agro its listed as a foliar product its called AB Green. Here's a link if it works

https://www.rexil-agro.com/abgreen.html

Some where in here theres a thread where someone tested all the major brands of silica and silicic acid products and Agsil 16H the cheapest silica product on the market had way more silicic acid than even the silicic acid specific products. So save yourself a ton of money skip silicic acid products entirely and use silica products as a foliar fertilizer. Doesn't potassium silicate have to be broken down by microbes in order to be taken up by the roots anyways? That sounds like a pretty stupid and useless to me lol.

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You missed my point. I spend less money overall with it in my reservoir. Less acid. Less overall cost. Would not stop using it but will look into a cheaper product as you suggest. Will look for that thread.

All of my usage of potassium silicate was with r/o water for the base. I never have a need for pH down, with or without silica. I saw measurable results and used very little, so I find these reports of little to no effect to be odd.

I've personally found it quite easy to use too much in flower.

DWC Hydro, Lucas formula base, r/o, epsom, smidge of fulvic, no other additives, Lucas res management with pure r/o daily res top offs. Just to list the conditions I use it in.

I got your point you use less acid. Maybe you missed mine though. Silicic acid is extremely expensive about a dollar a millimeter and it was developed to be used as a foliar feed until scam artist weed specific nutrient companies started telling people to dump it in there reservoir so they could sell way more of there product even though its unstable and quickly degrades in a nutrient solution, so whats the point of adding it to your reservoir, to make companies like Aptus richer?

Being a acid, silicic acid also has a low PH so it would make sence that your using less PH down acid because your already adding another type of acid. And if your talking about potassium silicate it spikes your PH and needs to be broken down by microbes in order to be taken up by the roots so whats the point of using that, how do you know how much silicate is making into your plants?

I also have experienced brittle branches that are poorly formed at the stalk that are prone to snapping and break off the stalk just from there own weight, I have only experienced this while using silicic acid I stopped using it and the problem went away.

High levels of silica= brittle branches and has negative effect on flower quality. High levels of calcium gives you the strong yet rubbery resilient type of branches your trying to get from a silica supplement.

You contradict yourself. In one sentence you say it doesn't effect the plant. (edit: I should have said "does not effect the plant much, and has) absorption issues In the next you complain about it causing brittle branches when too much is used.

(edit: A bottle of pro-tekt is $12 a pint, a pint is around 3-4 flowering runs for a 1K hps. That inludes using it in veg, right before flower. Super cheap...)

Just an observation.

I notice pest resistance and better turgor with it in my res. I get the same results using far less as a foliar application as you said. But I like the ph stability and will continue adding it to my res. I do not follow their use rates. It costs me about 2 bucks per res per week at my use rates. That's not much.
And yes I have seen plants get "spongy" for lack of a better word. It is always the last additive I give plants. Meaning all other aspects of nutrition get dialed first for each strain.
Then I add a little.
Different strains react differently. OG's seem to respond the best.

So to sum up I don't think its a miracle element. But it will always have a place in my garden. And It is not breaking the bank at rates I use.

I'll let my flowers do the rest of the talking... They can speak for themselves...

Douglas.Curtis said:

You contradict yourself. In one sentence you say it doesn't effect the plant. In the next you complain about it causing brittle branches when too much is used.

Just an observation.

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When did I say it doesn't effect the plant?

mushroombrew- your plants look great. If your happy with pouring silicic acid in your reservoir even though it quickly degrades keep doing so. Im just trying to share my knowledge and experience what works for some may not work for others. For me putting silicic acid in the reservoir is expensive and stupid and putting potassium silicate in the reservoir is useless. You guys have at it

I'd like to share some info that I have. Silica helps with structural strength but, just like other nutes, too much is bad and too little is bad. During times of great growth it can be helpful and a little early in the life of the plant.
Saw a bunch of stuff about B vitamins so I'll share this, they work but only before the stress occurs. B Vitamins cause systemic induced resistance basically putting plant on high alert and can resist sickness faster. So if you know some stress is going to be coming then hit them with some vitamins.
You wanna build the health of your plants. Theres a lot of info about Calmag out there but what does calcium do?
Calcium uptake is important for plant health and plant health is every thing. The plant uses calcium ions to bring up cal. the problem is the plant can use a highways worth of Cal but its trying to get it through a 2 lane street. The key? Amino acids.. Amino acids help open the calcium ion channels.
Heres why Cal is important. The cal reacts with peptic acid making peptum, Peptum is the glue that cements the cell walls together. So then instead of water in between the cell walls theres more peptum
When a mold spore or powdery mildew spore lands on a plant it send into the leaf a germination tube. The tube is looking for water if theres no water (because it was replaced with more peptum) then it dries up and dies. Find amino acids made from Enzymatic Hydrolysis ( biologically active) not from Acid Hydrolysis or Akyline Hydrolysis (not biologically active).
Amino Acids aren't only good for Cal, they are intermediate chelators meaning it helps keep minerals from clumping up and being locked out from the plant, making nutes more available.

I saw someone mention Auxins... for the organic guys Kelp extracts is where its at.
KELP (Seaweed) Extracts
Loaded with growth hormones and 62 beneficial elements

Some kelp hormones -
Auxins help with root growth
Cytokinins help with foliage stimulates cell division meaning growth
Gibberellins helps with seed germ, especially for older seeds or those not properly stored
Gibberelic acids literally starts the seed germing cascade starting the germination

Humic and Fulvic Acids are both intermediate chelators
Humic Acids have larger molecules helping bridge the uptake in more clay soil
Fulvic acids have smaller molecules and helps with iron uptake

Iron is important because its a catalyst for chlorophyll production which means more energy harvesting and more sugar production meaning more food for plant to grow
These two acids help activate the superoxide dismutase agent because of the iron and manganese uptake
Humid acid also buffers ph.

Well thats all I have for now, hopefully it can be of some help. This stuff is not for newbs, this delves into the more chemical side of the nutes. You can even start breaking this all down and make your own nutes.

I think its best to not think of Si as a magic additive, but as a plant nutrient that is often not present in sufficient quantity. Without Si and B, you cant get enough Ca, so if Si is the limiting nutrient, then yea youre going to see results when using it...

plantingplants said:

I think its best to not think of Si as a magic additive, but as a plant nutrient that is often not present in sufficient quantity. Without Si and B, you cant get enough Ca, so if Si is the limiting nutrient, then yea youre going to see results when using it...

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Well said.

BubbaBear said:

mushroombrew- your plants look great. If your happy with pouring silicic acid in your reservoir even though it quickly degrades keep doing so. Im just trying to share my knowledge and experience what works for some may not work for others. For me putting silicic acid in the reservoir is expensive and stupid and putting potassium silicate in the reservoir is useless. You guys have at it

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Yeah I hear you. Are you against it from a science perspective? Which I agree is not clear cut or positive.

Or have you had personal experience and thought it was a waste of money? At 5ml per gallon (not uncommon) it is really expensive.

But that is a loony amount! Way out of balance for a trace!

I use 0.4ml per gallon of Pro Tekt.

And yes to each there own. No hard feelings here...

Thats a stupid and useless post Lathus, this thread is about stupid and useless ingredients not useful one's

Just kidding of course, you shared lots of good information and I get what you mean, many additives have a subtle effect on plants so its easy to question whether they have a positive effect or not

And just to reiterate what I've been trying to say since the beginning of this thread since some people aren't getting it. Im not saying silicate is a completely useless. Im saying putting it in your RESERVOIR is at the least stupid.

Silicic acid products are unstable and degrade quickly in a nutrient reservoir. They can also cause brittle branches when used in heavy doses like the companies tell you to do to reduce stretch which also doesnt work.

Potassium silicate spikes your PH so much its commonly used as PH up so you need extra acid to get your PH stable. It also requires microbes to break it down in order to be taken up by the roots.

I said from the get go that it strengthens cell walls, why not foliar feed silicate so you know its getting where you need it to go and crown feed it to the roots weekly so it doesn't go unstable or spike the PH of your reservoir.

Also I'm growing in coco now so im sure my plants get what silica they need from the coco, but l was growing in rockwool when l had the problem with the brittle weakly formed branches, I've talked to other people that have experienced the same problem. I think its especially problematic when you start using silicic acid on adult plants. I continued using for a while and plants that received it from the time they were babies did not have the same problem.

Mushroombrew- everything im saying is from personal experience I've used a ton of different silicate and silicic acid products. I completely cut it out of my regimen and saw no difference in my plants. I do foliar feed with it now even though I saw no difference without because like you mentioned science says it makes my cell wall stronger so why not. I still have GH silicate, Advanced nutrients silicate and Mills silicic acid laying around so I try to use them where I can, one thing for sure though im not putting it in my reservoir lol.

Supposedly foliar feeding Si is not efficient. Avenger said that and I trust his research so if you want sources you can hit him up. Needs to be available to roots. Also, Si tissue concentration is strongly correlated with transpiration.