The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

growingcrazy · Jan 13, 2019

Slow, Since Doka is chasing your tail with salts, Have you done similar with liquid organics?

Can you get additional yields out of the organics over the salts to make the additional cost of organics a none point?

slownickel · Jan 13, 2019

growingcrazy said:
Slow, Since Doka is chasing your tail with salts, Have you done similar with liquid organics?

Can you get additional yields out of the organics over the salts to make the additional cost of organics a none point?

We need to clear up definitions. K, Zn, Cu, Mn, Mg, Ni, Co, Mo in sulfate forms are all salts, yet certifiable organic.

Things that we are seeing now really point to the big issue of getting enough P organically. Tall order. Bone meal works but so far, fairly expensive and the fish bone meal seems to have Na sometimes. There is organic N in the form of fish and soy aminos, they work great, but I really appreciate what I can do with MKP, CaN, MAP and others. And that crosses the organic line...

Yes, it can be done organically, but it is difficult and expensive. I can get better yields if I can use some other "synthetic" salts and these will all increase nutrient density.

Funny I am complaining when lots of you all use woowoo juice that makes anything I am talking about look cheap. Realize that lots of organic stuff is going to fail for having organic microbiology on it! To get quality and not be forced to use input that come with ungodly quantities of iron, aluminum and sodium is also a real issue. Getting it right becomes a moving target.

Getting lots of organics through an irrigation system is a very real issue. Getting them to stay in solution, wow.... Plugging of everything? Filters, lack of uniformity of both water and fertilizer distribution...

jidoka · Jan 14, 2019

And if you go messing with things like basalt watch your plant accumulate Al

Edit...organically you really need to tie up P with humic/fulvic and use aggressive biology to release it as needed. It even works in coco/salts. Rootwise is me favorite

Edit dos...I think my salt formula is 6-7 cents per gallon and it is freaky how little media you need per light. Just saying. Custom hydro :woohoo:

calisun · Jan 19, 2019

Here's a new test for this year. At first glance it doesen't look too bad.Phosphorus may be to high. Nitrogen, Boron and Calcium may be a little low. Mg is finally going down. What do you guys think?

slownickel · Jan 20, 2019

calisun said:
Here's a new test for this year. At first glance it doesen't look too bad.Phosphorus may be to high. Nitrogen, Boron and Calcium may be a little low. Mg is finally going down. What do you guys think?

What procedure did this lab use to extract the bases?

Have my doubts about that Ca number.

calisun · Jan 20, 2019

Hey slow glad to see you're still poken around
Not sure if this is the right answer but the method used is ASA/UC
American Society of Agronomy method of analysis
University of California method of analysis.
Says nothing of Mehlich or morgan on there website.
It's a local place to me Fruit growers lab.I'll give them a call Monday
I was thinking I may have to foliar feed with extra zinc due to the high P in the soil.

calisun · Jan 21, 2019

slownickel said:
What procedure did this lab use to extract the bases?

Have my doubts about that Ca number.

They use olsen bicarbinated method for phosphorus. Since this is a high organic soil with compost the result shows higher than it is.

for the exch =ammonium acetate
Sol= sat past with deionized water (maybe I sould of used my well water)?

jidoka · Jan 22, 2019

So wild guess here...you have used a lot of CaCO3 sources (oyster shell etc). The result is your soluble Ca is low and now your Mg and K are blocking “plant” uptake of Ca

You need gypsum to fix that

And when building soils one should only use enough caco3 to get pH to 6. The rest needs to be a more soluble form...gypsum or cano3

Also need to balance those micros better

bsgospel · Jan 22, 2019

https://www.fglinc.com/documents/Soil_Term_Sheet-12.pdf

Conversion factors at the bottom of page 1. "PPM x 4 ~ .lbs/acre ft."

...is that right?

Found conversion says lbs/acre-ft x .368 = g/m3 = ppm

That's almost a 10% difference if you're looking for meq. Did I get something wrong?

calisun · Jan 23, 2019

jidoka said:
So wild guess here...you have used a lot of CaCO3 sources (oyster shell etc). The result is your soluble Ca is low and now your Mg and K are blocking “plant” uptake of Ca

You need gypsum to fix that

And when building soils one should only use enough caco3 to get pH to 6. The rest needs to be a more soluble form...gypsum or cano3

Also need to balance those micros better

When the soil was first built and put in place about 6 yrs ago I did use a lot of oyster shell for the first couple years along with dolomite lime witch was part of the reason my mg was so high for so long. I have always used gypsum.The last 3 or 4 years I've haven't used oyster shell. I've just been using more gypsum than normal. Also last year in a attempt to get my P and ca up I used alot of steemed bone meal and fish meal.
Last year I experimented with some tsp that I applied in mid August. That may be attributing to some of my high p aslo although I didn't use alot and thought it would all get used up.
Yeah im not sure the best micro balance is. Maybe a little more Boron and copper?

calisun · Jan 23, 2019

bsgospel said:
https://www.fglinc.com/documents/Soil_Term_Sheet-12.pdf

Conversion factors at the bottom of page 1. "PPM x 4 ~ .lbs/acre ft."

...is that right?

Found conversion says lbs/acre-ft x .368 = g/m3 = ppm

That's almost a 10% difference if you're looking for meq. Did I get something wrong?

Yeah I need to look into that. I've had the lab convert the numbers in the past but that is something I should know how to do
. I've always amended by the look of the plant and still figuring it out

jidoka · Jan 24, 2019

I think you will have better luck if you can water in or top dress gypsum weekly rather than til it in all at once. That will do a better job of keeping plenty of Ca soluble for the plant to take up

calisun · Jan 25, 2019

bsgospel said:
https://www.fglinc.com/documents/Soil_Term_Sheet-12.pdf

Conversion factors at the bottom of page 1. "PPM x 4 ~ .lbs/acre ft."

...is that right?

Found conversion says lbs/acre-ft x .368 = g/m3 = ppm

That's almost a 10% difference if you're looking for meq. Did I get something wrong?

Yes it's lbsAF/4=ppm
Here it is

calisun · Jan 25, 2019

jidoka said:
I think you will have better luck if you can water in or top dress gypsum weekly rather than til it in all at once. That will do a better job of keeping plenty of Ca soluble for the plant to take up

I agree, I only went heavy when I first put that soil together. Last year I top dressed about 6oz 1/2 cup gypsum every 10- 17 days per 2 to 3 yard area. What's your thought on my P level? Do you think it will lock out Zn and fe or cause and stunting?

bsgospel · Jan 25, 2019

How would you categorize your soil? Sandy, clay, etc?

Also just curious, are you having any issues to speak of or are things looking good?

calisun · Jan 25, 2019

My native soil is no good. So I brought in soil similar to coot's mix but I've addend wood fines and a few other things over the years. I Have a box above trench setup.
The soil did pretty well last year. The plants looked great all year. I though they could have had a little more vigor but over all did great. Great is good but I want to get as close as I can to reaching the full potential of the plants

jidoka · Jan 26, 2019

calisun said:
I agree, I only went heavy when I first put that soil together. Last year I top dressed about 6oz 1/2 cup gypsum every 10- 17 days per 2 to 3 yard area. What's your thought on my P level? Do you think it will lock out Zn and fe or cause and stunting?

When you think about your micros being extracted with water you are not lacking either one of those so no worries.

Gypsum and Mn (and probably Co) is where I would focus. And anytime you need N CaNO3 is gonna be the ticket

calisun · Jan 28, 2019

jidoka said:
When you think about your micros being extracted with water you are not lacking either one of those so no worries.

Gypsum and Mn (and probably Co) is where I would focus. And anytime you need N CaNO3 is gonna be the ticket

Thanks for your input. Sounds good

GSWCali · Feb 2, 2019

Hello everyone, hope all is well.

Hey Jidoka I have been playing around with the base you gave me. I have 6 seedlings in 16oz cups of coco at the moment. 2 days ago I made a 2 gallon batch using the same ratios but at a strength of 0.7EC.
1.5g/gal CaNO3
0.6g/gal MgSO4
0.7g/gal MKP
0.2G/gal Ksil
and micros

What you mentioned previously about having a low EC like this will make the plants run out of food before water but I was so hesitant to increase EC because I don't know how well the seedlings will handle it. I'm on day 11 veg and looking at the plants my gut feeling is saying that they are hungry. I was thinking of making a 1.3EC solution. Would love to get your input on this.

My environment is pretty good temp/rh wise but my lighting is still a problem. My plants seem to be stretching, I have the gavita about 2 feet away at 500watts. I keep raising the watts every day/other day to see if I can get them to stop stretching.

I also went through a day of feeding them very toxic micro nutrient levels by not having a precise scale being able to weigh 0.0035g of zinc sulfate and other micros. It was something like 45ppm zinc and around the same for other micros. I think that halted them a bit but I fixed that quickly.

Here is a picture I took last night after feeding them some solution at 0.7EC.

jidoka · Feb 4, 2019

So yea they are underfed so they are not forming the pectin and cellulose needed for solid stems. 1.3 with plenty of runoff should help

Also if you have a glycine Ca a foliar can help

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