Plant Growth Regulators (PGRs) thread

DonkDBZ said:

Thanks for the info Spurr.

So I put my order in with Phytotechlab and get a email.

Since this product is classified as a plant growth regulator (PGR) when it is used for purposes other than research it is subject to the EPA's enforcement of FIFRA (the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act) as cited in the US Code of Federal Regulations (40CFR152.15). As this, and all of our products, are labeled for laboratory research only, we must confirm that:

1) you are purchasing this product for tissue culture or experimental use on plants, and

2) you will NOT use this product for human, animal, or pharmaceutical applications.

To this end please tell us how you intend to use this product.

Specifically, we need to know what type of application/experimentation you intend to perform with this product.

Please include what species, treatments, concentrations, etc. you intend to do.

Should our sales records be audited by Federal authorities your response to this inquiry will be provided to them to demonstrate our due diligence in screening PGR orders as required by law.

So I sent my crappy response and no reply and no charge to my card.

So what to tell em to get them to send me stuff?

Click to expand...

What was your "crappy response"? If it was too crappy they may not sell you an order. Check your PMs in a minute


It would be easier to just order Jaz spray, i.e., methyl dihydro-jasmonate; MDHJ (see the other thread in this sub-forum for more info). Both Oswizzle and Oldman&theWeed have reported Jaz does seem to increase trichome density quite a lot, and apparently tepenoid content too (increased smell).

Clackamas Coot said:

spurr

Looking at the terms 'fermented kelp' and/or 'fermented seaweed' turned up page after page of using this form for HABA products but little as far as using it for an agriculture or horticulture application.

Here's my question, basically. I plan on using the air-dried kelp meal from Acadian Seaplants, Ltd. which will give me a known quality.

Click to expand...

I think that is my route too, I am not going to use Kelpak again becuase I noticed it has ammonium-phosphate added to it, IIRC. I tried to find the Japanese brand of cellular ruptured kelp extract you once told me about, but I haven't been able to find it, do you have a link? The source of enzyme digested kelp extract is also something I plan to try.

There are a couple of ways to ferment this kelp meal and one would be to add an amount of kelp meal to a cistern and adding 3x that volume with clear water and then adding EM (whatever flavor one chooses I suppose) and a carbohydrate. This would give you a liquid extract (duh!) as well as a paste of fermented kelp that you would separate from the liquid.

The other method would be to use the kelp meal as a base for making 'bokashi bran' which would leave the kelp meal particles intact but fermented and once it was dried could be added to the soil as an amendment. I've done this with a wide combination of seed meals and took it down to < 2.8 pH with good results.

The term 'fermented mannitol' came up quite often using SCIRUS vs. Google (general version) - any thoughts on that?

Any other suggestions or coments?

Click to expand...

In regard to fermented kelp extract, I too have looked into it after I found the source of enzymatic produced kelp extract. If I was going to produce fermented kelp extract from kelp powder, I would use the first method you wrote, but I would use homemade LAB serum (ala Gil's method), not EM. Getting the liquid and leaving the solids would be easy via siphon. A cheap method would be to use a 5 gallon carboy or 1 gallon water jug and mineral oil or bung with a twin-bubble air lock to keep it anaerobic. I prefer mineral oil because I can also add a fish tank heater to the water while keeping it anaerobic (water temp of ~80'F is sufficient, but ~90'F would be better). I would fill the carboy with distilled water that I mixed with kelp powder; and (dissolved) unsulphured blackstrap molasses (or malt extract) at 0.1-0.2% by volume to volume of water. Then I would add ~0.1-0.2% (vol/vol) LAB serum (ala Gil's method) to the mix and top off with mineral oil after adding the heater (I like about a 1/2" to 1" of mineral oil); or use a bung and twin-bubble air lock and hot plate.

Mixing the solution during fermentation is also a good idea, in the past I have used a 1/4" hose from a Co2 tank I fashioned into a loop at the bottom of the container with holes poked into it (when making AEM and LAB serum). So when I turned on the Co2 the bubbles would mix up the solution, it worked OK but mechanical mixing would be better (and harder to do so anaerobically). I also used Co2 wine kepper bottles for 1 gallon jugs to mix up the solution, I put the hose in the solution and hit the button for Co2; that didn't work as well as a hose at the bottom, but it did mix up the solution a bit.

bushmaster is for pussies that can't handle stretch!

@ VS,

Where did that come from? Did someone write about bushmaster? To control stretch using a non-chem solution is best IMO, such as increasing R:Fr ratio intracanopy and controlling DIF. I for one prefer controlling and limiting stretch, it's easy to do so, thus why not?

spurr said:

@ VS,

Where did that come from? Did someone write about bushmaster? To control stretch using a non-chem solution is best IMO, such as increasing R:Fr ratio intracanopy and controlling DIF. I for one prefer controlling and limiting stretch, it's easy to do so, thus why not?

Click to expand...

If one had excess vertical height to fill without the need to increase veg time, a little stretch might be advantageous, not to mention if one has very large dense buds it would seem that if temp and humidty were out of ones control that a little stretch would decrease the risk of pathogens through the increase of air flow/surface area. Kinda like the profiles of tropical varietals.

spurr

The enzyme-extracted kelp extract is from Eco-Nutrients in Crescent City, California. The name of the product is Eco-Nereo Kelp. It runs around $15.00 per gallon and you apply 1 oz. per gallon of water.

This product is made from the "Bull Kelp" (and a host of other names) and not the AN used by Maxicrop and ASL. They harvest off the Pacific Northwest (to include some of Northern California).

KELPGROW out of British Columbia is a really interesting product. Check out the processing method that they use. This could be the real winner.

This product is made from the "Macrocystis integrifolia" variety found off the coast of British Columbia.

And if you really want to experiment around you should check out the variety of kelp and algae products offered by Mountain Rose Herbs. They cater to the folks making organic health and beauty aids.

HTH

CC

Great thanks CC, will PM you soon about kelp...

@ all:

Re jasmonates as methyl jasmonate (MeJA):

1. FWIW, below is quickly written basic directions (from memory; forgive errors please) for mixing up solutions of MeJA. Here (link) is a good page about making stock solutions; and here (link) is a good page about solutions/mixtures in general.

1. Assuming we are using 25 ppm MeJA (as an example), we would need 25 mg in 1 liter of water (distilled or deionized is best), i.e., 25 mg/L.
2. MeJA is ~95% pure, thus: (25 mg/L)/.95 = 26.31578947 mg/L of 95% pure MeJA is needed to reach 25 ppm MeJA.
3. 26.31578947 mg/L = 0.02631578947 g/L
4. Density of MeJA is 1.03 g/mL
5. (0.02631578947 g/L)/1.03 g/mL = 0.0255493102 ml/L (i.e., ~0.026 ml/L)
6. Thus we would need 0.026 mL of 95% pure MeJA neat oil per liter of water to get ~25 ppm

2. However, we also need to dissolve MeJA into EtOH (ethyl alcohol) to mix it with water as a solution, thus:

1. 30 mg of MeJA can be made miscible in 1 mL of EtOH
2. Using 0.026 mL of MeJA from above (i.e., ~26.32 mg) we would use just under 1 mL (i.e., ~0.877 mL) of EtOH
3. Thus we would use 0.9 mL EtOH to dissolve 0.026 mL MeJA for 1 liter of water for a solution of 25 ppm MeJA.

3. Because MeJA comes as a neat fluid, using volume is easier than weight IMO. But using either wight or volume works fine. For measuring < 1 mL of liquid (i.e., < 1 cc; 1 mL = 1 cc) one can use a syringe, like an insulin syringe you can buy at a drug store.



4. Using an emulsifier with the foliar spay is also a good idea, I have tested tween 20 (polysorbte 20) in the past, and I know Triton x-100 is also good; both can be used at 1.25-2.5 mL/L.



5. Here is an example of making a stock solution of MeJA (or JA):

Jasmonic Acid is miscible in ethyl alcohol. Stock solutions are typically prepared at 1000x the desired working concentration so that 1 ml of ethanolic solution is added to 1,000 ml of medium.

Good luck, Gary
____________________________
Gary Seckinger, Ph.D.
Technical Service
PhytoTechnology Laboratories

Click to expand...

6. Using MeJA is not for people who want to do things with least complexity; that is why I am happy Oswizzle and Oldman&theWeed tested Jaz spray (MDHJ). Buying and using Jaz spray is very simple, and is the route I think most people should take; at least until there are stock solutions and/or ready-to-use solutions of MeJA made available for sale to laypersons...

Triacontanol:


After looking over the many studies I have, but have not yet uploaded, I wanted to make some notes to anyone interested:

a) One can dissolve 1 mg TRIA into 1 g Tween 20 at 90'C (194'F) in 15 minutes; and 10 mg of TRIA can be dissolved into 1 liter of water (albeit not without a lot of mixing and use of an emulsifier). Using chloroform is the best organic solvent for dissolving TRIA, but chloroform is hard to buy and thus I think is out of the question for most people here. So I am going to try using Tween 20 (see below). In the past I used Tween 20 (and Therm-X 70) mixed into very hot water with a blender to dissolve TRIA from super-grow; but that was messy (foamy); I used too much Tween 20...

b) the most common usage rates of TRIA in plant studies is 10^-4 M, 10^-5 M, 10^-6 M, 10^-7 M and 10^-8 M; that equates to ~43.88 ppm, ~4.38 ppm, ~0.438 ppm, ~0.044 ppm, ~0.004 ppm. The only info about TRIA and cananbis cited 1 ppm as effective dose rate. Most studies that used 10^-6 M, and other molarity concentrations, found 10^-6 M (i.e,. ~0.438 ppm TRIA) to be most effective. And 10^-4 M was found to hinder plant physiology in all studies I found. Some studies reported concentration by ppm, ex., 1 ppm, 2 ppm, 5 ppm, 10 ppm and 15 ppm; but most studies use Molarity (i.e., mol/L) for reporting concentration used.

c) I have used TRIA at ~25 ppm and ~10 ppm. I didn't notice a difference between both concentrations but less is always better for the same (or better) result. I have read of other people using 10 ppm and 25 ppm TRIA on cannabis with good results, too.

d) This next grow I plan to use 10^-6 M TRIA (i.e., ~0.438 ppm) instead of what I planned to use: 1 ppm. I think the result might be better with less TRIA (e.g., < 1 ppm), than with more TRIA (e.g., > 5 ppm).

e) I can post lots of studies if people wish to read them.


Waring: I have not tried this method yet, but it's sound and should work and requires no organic solvents. This method also includes a non-ionic surfactant so the mix is ready to spray on plants once diluted. FWIW, at least one patent I read suggests adding 2% (vol) canola oil (or rapeseed oil) to increase absorption of TRIA into leaf.

Request: Can someone good with math and chemsity, ex., Mr.Fista, Tester, etc., double check my math and methodology (i.e., creation of stock solution and dilution, etc)? Thanks!


Background:

Below is the math I used to find ppm from molarity, as well as directions for making stock solution and then dilution of stock solution for ~0.438 ppm foliar spray in 1 liter of water. I didn't include the math I used to find the molecular weight of TRIA; but what I listed below is correct to the last decimal place (I didn't round).

In the info below I provide the 'how to' for 98% pure TRIA and for 85% pure TRIA. I provided both purities because the TRIA sold from chemical companies is 98% pure and the TRIA sold by super-grow is 85% pure. I was told super-grow will not re-open, but I assumed some people might have their TRIA, as I do. I plan to order 98% pure TRIA soon because my TRIA from super-grow is a bit old.



How to:-PPM of 100% pure TRIA at 10^-6 M concentration:

1. (0.000001 mol/L)438.81268 g/mol = (4.3881268e^-4 g)1,000 = 0.43881268 mg/L = ~0.439 ppm TRIA


-Directions for 10^-6 M (~0.439 ppm) TRIA solution using TRIA that is 98% pure via stock solution:

• Required mass of 98% pure TRIA accounting for purity: 0.043881268/.98 = 0.0447768041 g = ~0.045 g = 45 mg

1. Add 0.045 gram 98% pure TRIA to 100 mL volumetric flask/container using inexpensive jewelry scale to weight out 0.045 g TRIA.

2. Add 45 mL (~45 g; 45,000 mg) Tween 20 at 90'C to 100 mL flask/container for 15 minutes to dissolve TRIA. Agitate slightly for 15 minutes; it would be best to keep Tween 20 > 87'C and < 100'C using stirrer bar and heated stirrer plate, or use glass rod and hot water bath.

3. Add deionized water to 100 mL volumetric flask/container for 100 mL stock solution, i.e., ~439 ppm TRIA and ~450,000 ppm Tween 20.

4. Transfer 1 mL of the TRIA stock solution with pipette (or syringe) to 999 mL deionized water in 1,000 mL volumetric flask/container for a final TRIA solution of 10^-6 M, i.e., ~0.439 ppm ppm TRIA and ~450 ppm Tween 20 that acts as surfactant.

5. Allow stock solution to cool, and store in cool and dark location for future use.


-Directions for 10^-6 M (~0.439 ppm) TRIA solution using TRIA that is 85% pure via stock solution:

• Required mass of 85% pure TRIA accounting for purity: 0.043881268/.85 = 0.0516250212 g = ~0.052 g = 52 mg

1. Add 0.052 gram 85% pure TRIA to 100 mL volumetric flask/container using inexpensive jewelry scale to weight out 0.052 g TRIA.

2. Add 52 mL (~52 g; 52,000 mg) Tween 20 at 90'C to 100 mL flask/container for 15 minutes to dissolve TRIA. Agitate slightly for 15 minutes; it would be best to keep Tween 20 > 87'C and < 100'C using stirrer bar and heated stirrer plate, or use glass rod and hot water bath.

3. Add deionized water to 100 mL volumetric flask/container for 100 mL stock solution, i.e., ~439 ppm TRIA and ~520,000 ppm Tween 20.

4. Transfer 1 mL of the TRIA stock solution with pipette (or insulin syringe from pharmacy) to 999 mL deionized water in 1,000 mL volumetric flask/container for a final TRIA solution of 10^-6 M, i.e., ~0.439 ppm ppm TRIA and ~520 ppm Tween 20 that acts as surfactant.

5. Allow stock solution to cool and store in cool and dark location for future use

spurr said:

Re jasmonates as methyl jasmonate (MeJA):[/B]

1. FWIW, below is quickly written basic directions (from memory; forgive errors please) for mixing up solutions of MeJA. Here (link) is a good page about making stock solutions; and here (link) is a good page about solutions/mixtures in general.

1. Assuming we are using 25 ppm MeJA (as an example), we would need 25 mg in 1 liter of water (distilled is best), i.e., 25 mg/L.
2. MeJA is ~95% pure; thus: (25-(25*.95)+25) = 26.25 mg; the needed mg/L of MeJA for 25 ppm, accounting for purity.
3. 26.25 mg/L = 0.02625 g/L
4. Density of MeJA is 1.03 g/mL
5. (0.02625 g/L)/(1.03 g/mL) = 0.0254854369 mL/L (i.e., ~0.025 mL/L)
6. Thus we would need 0.025 mL of MeJA neat oil per liter of water to get ~25 ppm

2. However, we also need to dissolve MeJA into EtOH (ethyl alcohol) to mix it with water as a solution, thus:

1. 30 mg of MeJA can be made miscible in 1 mL of EtOH
2. Using 0.025 mL of MeJA from above (i.e., ~26.25 mg) we would use just under 1 mL (i.e., 0.875 mL) of EtOH
3. Thus we would use 0.9 mL EtOH to dissolve 0.025 mL MeJA for 1 liter of water for a solution of 25 ppm MeJA.

3. Because MeJA comes as a neat fluid, using volume is easier than weight IMO. But using either wight or volume works fine. For measuring < 1 mL of liquid (i.e., < 1 cc; 1 mL = 1 cc) one can use a syringe, like an insulin syringe you can buy at a drug store.



4. Using an emulsifier with the foliar spay is also a good idea, I have tested tween 20 (polysorbte 20) in the past, and I know Triton x-100 is also good; both can be used at 1.25-2.5 mL/L.

Click to expand...

Good info there. As you know, i'm going to be playing with oil. I'm thinking 190 proof everclear would work as well. What about using simple dish soap as an emulsifier such as one would do with Neem oil?

MeJA (methyl jasmonate; aka methyl ester of jasmonic acid):

I just learned one can use pH 7.2 PBS (Phosphate Buffer Solution) to dissolve 3 mg MeJA (neat oil) per mL of PBS. I like that better than using using EtOH because the PBS will not have a negative affect on the plants like can happen when using too much EtOH (I have experienced that using EtOH with a foliar spray before). I want to try using PBS to dissolve MeJA and then add the solution to a liter of water to reach the goal ppm. I will figure out the math later and post a how-to with info on buying and making pH 7.2 PBS...

One reason I like using EtOH is one can make a stock solution and then simply dilute it into a weaker solution for foliar spray. I also like EtOH (as Everclear) becuase 30 mg of MeJA can be made miscible in 1 mL of EtOH versese only 3 mg of MeJA into pH 7.2 PBS. FWIW, foliar spays of EtOH and methanol have been found to increase Co2 fixation and carbon assimilate by some higher plants.

If using PBS to make a solution of MeJA it should be used that day; but when using EtOH it can be stored (ex., as a stock solution).




Various application rates of MeJA from two studies showing increased trichome production:

I thought I should make a few quick notes about variuos rates used in some studies. I will do for MeJA what I did for TRIA above, later today or tomorrow. The molecular mass of MeJA is ~224.5 g/mol. I will calculate the exact mass later today.



- 7.5 mM MeJA on tomato plants:

(0.0075 mol/L)224.3 g/mol = (1.68225 g)1,000 = 1,682.25 mg/L = 1,682.25 ppm


- 0.4 mM on tobacco plants:

(0.004 mol/L)224.3 g/mol = (0.08972 g)1,000 = 89.72 mg/L = 89.72 ppm


- 0.2 mM on tobacco plants:

(0.002 mol/L)224.3 g/mol = (0.04486 g)1,000 = 44.86 mg/L = 44.86 ppm

Xerhoss said:

spurr said:

Re jasmonates as methyl jasmonate (MeJA):[/b]

1. FWIW, below is quickly written basic directions (from memory; forgive errors please) for mixing up solutions of MeJA. Here (link) is a good page about making stock solutions; and here (link) is a good page about solutions/mixtures in general.

1. Assuming we are using 25 ppm MeJA (as an example), we would need 25 mg in 1 liter of water (distilled or deionized is best), i.e., 25 mg/L.
2. MeJA is ~95% pure, thus: (25 mg/L)/.95 = 26.31578947 mg/L of 95% pure MeJA is needed to reach 25 ppm MeJA.
3. 26.31578947 mg/L = 0.02631578947 g/L
4. Density of MeJA is 1.03 g/mL
5. (0.02631578947 g/L)/1.03 g/mL = 0.0255493102 ml/L (i.e., ~0.026 ml/L)
6. Thus we would need 0.026 mL of 95% pure MeJA neat oil per liter of water to get ~25 ppm

2. However, we also need to dissolve MeJA into EtOH (ethyl alcohol) to mix it with water as a solution, thus:

1. 30 mg of MeJA can be made miscible in 1 mL of EtOH
2. Using 0.026 mL of MeJA from above (i.e., ~26.32 mg) we would use just under 1 mL (i.e., ~0.877 mL) of EtOH
3. Thus we would use 0.9 mL EtOH to dissolve 0.026 mL MeJA for 1 liter of water for a solution of 25 ppm MeJA.

3. Because MeJA comes as a neat fluid, using volume is easier than weight IMO. But using either wight or volume works fine. For measuring < 1 mL of liquid (i.e., < 1 cc; 1 mL = 1 cc) one can use a syringe, like an insulin syringe you can buy at a drug store.



4. Using an emulsifier with the foliar spay is also a good idea, I have tested tween 20 (polysorbte 20) in the past, and I know Triton x-100 is also good; both can be used at 1.25-2.5 mL/L.

Click to expand...

Good info there. As you know, i'm going to be playing with oil. I'm thinking 190 proof everclear would work as well. What about using simple dish soap as an emulsifier such as one would do with Neem oil?

Click to expand...

190 proof everclear is a great choice. However, you may want to make a stock solution and then dilute it into a foliar spray solution. What I wrote above was just a quick example of the math and conversions, etc.

See my post above this one for info about ppm of MeJA used in various studies on trichome production. What concentration of MeJA are you thinking about using?

If you don't want to make a stock solution you can do as I wrote in the quote above, or use pH 7.2 PBS; both have positive and negative aspects (dependent upon the ppm you plan to use for MeJA spray). The best method would be to make a stock solution, most likely. I need to write up some info later tomorrow.

In terms of a an emulsifier I do not like most dish soap (ex. Dawn); people do use it but IMO it has too many adulterants. Using Tween 20 (aka Polysorbate 20) or Triton X100 are much better choices. You can use dish soap, but I would advise against it.

@ xerhoss:

Quickly reviewing what you quoted, it seems I made an error in the math, here is a corrected version:

1. FWIW, below is quickly written basic directions (from memory; forgive errors please) for mixing up solutions of MeJA. Here (link) is a good page about making stock solutions; and here (link) is a good page about solutions/mixtures in general.

1. Assuming we are using 25 ppm MeJA (as an example), we would need 25 mg in 1 liter of water (distilled or deionized is best), i.e., 25 mg/L.
2. MeJA is ~95% pure, thus: (25 mg/L)/.95 = 26.31578947 mg/L of 95% pure MeJA is needed to reach 25 ppm MeJA.
3. 26.31578947 mg/L = 0.02631578947 g/L
4. Density of MeJA is 1.03 g/mL
5. (0.02631578947 g/L)/1.03 g/mL = 0.0255493102 ml/L (i.e., ~0.026 ml/L)
6. Thus we would need 0.026 mL of 95% pure MeJA neat oil per liter of water to get ~25 ppm

2. However, we also need to dissolve MeJA into EtOH (ethyl alcohol) to mix it with water as a solution, thus:

1. 30 mg of MeJA can be made miscible in 1 mL of EtOH
2. Using 0.026 mL of MeJA from above (i.e., ~26.32 mg) we would use just under 1 mL (i.e., ~0.877 mL) of EtOH
3. Thus we would use 0.9 mL EtOH to dissolve 0.026 mL MeJA for 1 liter of water for a solution of 25 ppm MeJA.

spurr

Assuming that you might find value in looking at Dr. Senn's body of work in the area of using kelp and/or seaweed extracts and in particular his work in the area of plant hormones contained in these agents.

For someone like me who likes and adheres to the teaching that most things in life are best approached on "the simple path" because it is often the best one. Perhaps.

Any thoughts?

CC

Clackamas Coot said:

spurr

Assuming that you might find value in looking at Dr. Senn's body of work in the area of using kelp and/or seaweed extracts and in particular his work in the area of plant hormones contained in these agents.

For someone like me who likes and adheres to the teaching that most things in life are best approached on "the simple path" because it is often the best one. Perhaps.

Any thoughts?

CC

Click to expand...

Hey buddy,

I agree with that, when the simple path offers the same benefits as the less simple path. I use kelp sprays and drenches for cytokinins, auxins, vitamins, nutrients, etc. But kelp does not provide triacontanol, jasmonates and brassinosteroids in sufficient quantity (if at all). I think this grow I will only use kelp spray/fertigation, TRIA and MeJA sprays.

If you guys are really into seaweed maybe check out Seacrop16 made by Atlantic Laboratories, Inc. in Maine it appears. From Ascophyllum nodosom and they claim to have the highest cytokin concentration at 400 ppm.

I'm not even close to being up on seaweed and it's extracts but figured I'd throw this one out for peeps to take a look at.

spurr said:

Hey buddy,

I agree with that, when the sample path offers the same benefits as the less simple path. I use kelp sprays and drenches for cytokinins, auxins, vitamins, nutrients, etc. But kelp does not provide triacontanol, jasmonates and brassinosteroids in sufficient quantity (if at all). I think this grow I will only use kelp spray/fertigation, TRIA and MeJA sprays.

Click to expand...

spurr

Thank you for your answer/post. In an indirect way you answered a myriad of questions that I had about the overall benefits of using kelp and/or seaweed extracts in general.

An interesting amendment overall to be sure. I plan on continuing my study of kelp on a number of levels, i.e. human, animal and plant health benefits which appear to be extraordinary on any number of levels.

Hey - how about that aloe vera deal? LMAO

CC

.

Clackamas Coot said:

spurr

Thank you for your answer/post. In an indirect way you answered a myriad of questions that I had about the overall benefits of using kelp and/or seaweed extracts in general.

An interesting amendment overall to be sure. I plan on continuing my study of kelp on a number of levels, i.e. human, animal and plant health benefits which appear to be extraordinary on any number of levels.

Hey - how about that aloe vera deal? LMAO

CC

Click to expand...

Aloe vera? For what, plants? (I'm not sure if you're joking)

spurr said:

Aloe vera? For what, plants? (I'm not sure if you're joking)

Click to expand...

maybe a visit to OFC social group, will catch you up

DARC MIND said:

maybe a visit to OFC social group, will catch you up

Click to expand...

Yea it's been a while since I have been there, will check it out today.