Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

Great thread, Terrible problem!

I'm over kidding myself that "I just have a bad case of gnats".
Ever since I went perpetual the problem has gotten worse, much worse. Worst plants look nutrient deficient, yellow and spotty, while the best are slow growing.

Any advice for those of us in coco.

*Can I apply the Bayer T & S with my feed solution or do I need to skip a day to apply?*

I'm going to water with the Bayer Tree and Shrub tonight and then continue with applications of the Botanicare ES.

The little fuckers went from pest to MAJOR F'ING Problem faster than I could react effectively.

A couple bottles of Azamax slowed them, for a moment. And it does not seem like the powderized BTI dunks that I applied to the tops of the pots are making much difference either.

Wish me luck and say a prayer because this is getting ugly.

OK update I actually bought sprectacide with Malathion. Anyone heard of this?
I think I got a headache last night from breathing fumes but this morning I seen no visible dead insects but when I looked in the rockwool with the scope, I did see dead micro bugs. The plants look ok. They are feeding on a light nute feed. The feed includes vitamin b red bottle) and root excelarator and I will reapply the spcectracide in 4 days.

Gnatrol or go gnats is what I use add it everytime you use new soil.And again in a couple weeks.Won't have any ahpids or gnats.Will have clean shit!!!Good Luck

Again, Gnatrol is NOT effective on root aphids! If it is working then it means you are dealing with fungus gnats.

Did dome research and it seems Malathion was used in dust cropping out here in Cali.

Pesticide use

Malathion is a pesticide that is widely used in agriculture, residential landscaping, public recreation areas, and in public health pest control programs such as mosquito eradication.[2] In the US, it is the most commonly used organophosphate insecticide.[3]

Malathion was used in the 1980s in California to combat the Mediterranean Fruit Fly. This was accomplished on a wide scale by the near weekly aerial spraying of suburban communities for a period of several months. Formations of three or four agricultural helicopters would overfly suburban portions of Alameda County, San Bernardino County, Santa Clara County, San Joaquin County, Stanislaus County, and Merced County releasing a mixture of malathion and corn syrup, the corn syrup being a bait for the fruit flies. Malathion has also been used to combat the Mediterranean Fruit Fly in Australia.[4]

Malathion was sprayed in many cities to combat West Nile virus. In the Fall of 1999 and the Spring of 2000, Long Island and the five boroughs of New York City were sprayed with several pesticides, one of which was malathion. While it was claimed by some anti-pesticide groups that use of these pesticides caused a lobster die-off in Long Island Sound, there is as of yet no conclusive evidence to support this.[5]

Manitoba ordered the city of Winnipeg, Manitoba to be sprayed in July 2005 as part of the West Nile virus campaign. Prior to this, Malathion was used over the last couple of decades on regular basis during summer months to kill nuisance mosquitoes, but homeowners were allowed to exempt their properties if they chose. Today, Winnipeg is the only major city in Canada with an ongoing Malathion nuisance-adult-mosquito-control program.

Malathion is also used in conjunction with diesel fuel to fog an area where there is an infestation of mosquitoes. By diluting the mixture, it becomes much weaker. It is possible to dilute the mixture to the point where mosquitoes are not killed, but become more resistant to the mixture, making it less effective in subsequent foggings.

caljim said:

Any advice for those of us in coco.

*Can I apply the Bayer T & S with my feed solution or do I need to skip a day to apply?*

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With coco, I've found that applying any pesticide is best done by itself in plain water, then ph balanced. I'd guess that that is what they reccomend anyway, you could call the customer service number and they'll be able to tell you for sure.

caljim said:

I'm going to water with the Bayer Tree and Shrub tonight and then continue with applications of the Botanicare ES.

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The Imid will work by itself, and stay in the plants for 30+ days anyway, so why would you drop $80 for a bottle of fungus that may or may not work? Piece of mind? Once you've applied the Imid its game over for the aphids, man.

I second that ^^ dont waste your money, just do one good proper app of the imid. Adding other shit/ overwatering after the treatment will just make the imid less effective.

Ok, you guys have talked me into using imid, and I picked up some Bayer Advanced. Should I just follow the directions on the bottle, or is there a different dilution rate should I use? I am growing in soil with each plan in about a .75 gallon container. What is the minimum amount of solution each plant would need to effectively kill these things?

Thank you.

WARNING: Bayer Tree And Shrub contains "slow release fertilizer", which means it might not be the best choice for us cultivators of marijuana. There are other choices at Home Depot/Lowes that only have Imid and inert ingredients. I chose "Bayer Complete Insect Killer" with Imid, which also contains B-Cyfluthrin(non-systemic) to treat my vegetative plants.

Fo.Co., do you know if the Citrus version does?

I am really getting irked by these bugs, I can feel those pangs of frustration coming from deep within...I'm not sure how much more of this I can take.

Tons of conflicting info, 1,000 different suggested methods of defeating them, 1,000 messages saying that you cannot defeat them, shit - I don't even know if the root aphids are the same thing as Phylloxera or not now. People swearing by Azatrol/max - people saying it doesn't do shit. Jeeeeeeeeeezus. I am starting to get desparate; I can honestly see why people will scrap an entire room, full of elites, just to get rid of them. They fuck with you mentally like no other, are they there still? No? Awesome! Oh FUCK - there's 3 more little transparent fucks walking around like it's nothing - I WOULD BE HAPPY TO TRADE THESE FOR SPIDER MITES. I just got done throwing away a $20 tray of Rapid rooters full of my 'back-up clones' because those little fuckers made their way in. I think I spotted one on the other tray as well....shhh...don't tell yourself that...you didn't see anything moving....

Edit: Wait, if Imid is the answer, then I'm ordering Merit 75 tonight. Wish me luck.

grin: People have been using anywhere from 4 mL/gal- 25 mL/gal w/ the Bayer T&S. That is 1.47% imid. Just do the math from that based on the imid product you buy (Complete Insect Killer, as FoCo mentioned above, is half as much imid so double the dosage). I got the Complete Insect Killer because it does not have the nutrients and also since it has the other chem in it (B-cyfluthrin). I used it at 45 mL/gal (3X what it say on the label) and it killed the crap out of aphids (though I still have fliers nesting in the roots that did not seem to get doused - so I will have to continue with other control soultions through bloom as they are no doubt laying eggs). I would say that 5 mL/gal T&S is enough for most situations. If you are in soil or coco etc you may want to use more since it may not get everywhere throughout the medium. Good luck!

Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long.

Do aphids jump? i got some little bastards that emerge when i watered the time before last so i flushed and a bunch of the little bastards got washed away. oh i forgot to mention im in soil and this is the first time i have noticed any bugs thanks in advance

the ones that bounce are probably springtails n they are good bugs - the phylloxera fly and crawl at different stages but dont fly till theres a lot of em. The citrus one WORKS - its about 6x more dilute so u use 6x as much to apply, apply with water ph balanced @ 30ml/gal top water it, and let the treatment soak in the roots for a day before you water again, and dont over water after you treat - then dont harvest for MIN 45 dayz.

im in 3 and a half weeks in of flower. its a 6ft tree that was a mom and got no more room so flowered it.

grin said:

Ok, you guys have talked me into using imid, and I picked up some Bayer Advanced. Should I just follow the directions on the bottle, or is there a different dilution rate should I use? I am growing in soil with each plan in about a .75 gallon container. What is the minimum amount of solution each plant would need to effectively kill these things?
Thank you.

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Follow directions on bottle.
That worked for me.
100% death.
That's with Bayer Advanced.

How long till you could say with certainty there were no more bugs?

FoCo(No.Co) said:

Here is a Banana Kush plant that is moving into the "total nutreint failure" phase of root aphid infestation. I think she got flipped about 35 days ago.

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Hey FoCo, were you able to save this plant? My Mr Nice looks pretty similar to this at day 28. The rest of my plants look OK, but I'm starting to see some yellowing on a couple other plants.

Here's my treatment method FWIW. I first gave a concentrated nicotine drench (1 cup per gallon) w Hygrozyme. Then I let it get fairly dry and watered a couple days later with a pyrethrum drench (Bug Buster O at 20ml/gal). I'll then be doing a second pyrethrum drench, then a flush, then I'll be applying beneficial nematodes... probably 2 applications separated by one week. I may also omit the 2nd pyrethrum drench and go straight to the nematodes.

I'll let you all know how this works. Some trusted people I know say nematodes will work. I'm just going to try to get the aphids numbers down so that'll give the nematodes a chance to get established after I introduce them. My big concern at this point is that plants are going to go 2 weeks or so without nutrients while they receive all these treatments... eh, I guess it'll be OK... better than losing the plants to aphids.

I don't run a perpetual system so I'm just trying to get through about 30-40 more days. Hopefully I'll be able to make it and get a decent harvest. Only one plant is showing signs... a couple more are starting to show signs, but at least half show no signs at all...

I think my next grow (after thorough disinfection) I'm just going to establish a nice population of predator nematodes or Beauveria bassiana as prevention...

BigSwifty said:

Hey FoCo, were you able to save this plant? My Mr Nice looks pretty similar to this at day 28. The rest of my plants look OK, but I'm starting to see some yellowing on a couple other plants.

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If you do everything you can to reduce damages you can get her to pull through, but she wont finish normally. I found that the bud quality decreases markedly as yellowing continues, once the larger fans are all yellow resin production pretty much stops. I chopped the kush that day(it was still dank at 35 days, I dont remember if you where a CO guy but if you are, make sure to grab that cut).

I think it is important that you not apply more nutrients when you notice this yellowing. Its not due to a lack of available nutrient, its due to the aphids sucking the juices before the plant can use them. If you feed heavier you will burn the buds.

BigSwifty said:

Here's my treatment method FWIW. I first gave a concentrated nicotine drench (1 cup per gallon) w Hygrozyme. Then I let it get fairly dry and watered a couple days later with a pyrethrum drench (Bug Buster O at 20ml/gal). I'll then be doing a second pyrethrum drench, then a flush, then I'll be applying beneficial nematodes... probably 2 applications separated by one week. I may also omit the 2nd pyrethrum drench and go straight to the nematodes.

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I thought Bug Buster-O was off the market? It was killing a lot of people's plants. But as long as your plants dont get 'pooched by the Bug Buster, I think that is a pretty great solution for your situation. Probably wont get rid of them, but it should make a worthwhile difference, which is all you can hope for.

BigSwifty said:

My big concern at this point is that plants are going to go 2 weeks or so without nutrients while they receive all these treatments...

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Things definitely slow down when the aphids are in high numbers and I dont think the plants eat much. Maybe you could sneak some high potassium kelp in there somewhere? Its also got benificial hormones so It'd be a double whammy.

Norkali: almost everyone has had great success with imid products of any sort. You do not need the gnarly stuff, as you can do high enough doses with the hardware-store imid products. If you need to make hundreds of gallons of imid solution you may want to buy the concentrates, however, as they will probably be more cost effective.

This is the only thing that is working for most people (at least to hold down the problem, not cure it):

-Apply imid (or acephate - little info so far, but it seems like imid works well enough, so you may as well use the safer systemic.of the two)

-Use a non-systemic control to keep down populations afterward (using even when you think bugs are all dead). There have been fewer posts about after-imid control so far, and there are conflicting reviews on almost every non-imid product. This perhaps is due to the different types of aphids being dealt with, but likely also the types of systems people are running (Soil vs hydro etc) and the extent of their problem.

Botanigard has not been reviewed on the forum much, but was supposedly 96% effective in the one study we have about root aphids. It is expensive, but has good potential for control during bloom. High-strength Bt (Gnatrol, Vectobac, Thuricide) or nematodes were the only things I used in my last test-round in my closet, and one or both of them seemed to work even when the levels of fliers had gotten pretty bad in veg... so even though people have been saying they don't work, one or both of them must work pretty well in some cases! Note: I used a far more organic regimen this time and backed WAY off on the chem nutes. At highest strength I used Canna Coco nutes at 5 mL/gal (where they say to use 9-13 mL/gal, and they already run WAY more dilute than many other nutrients), and I only used the canna coco nutes in perhaps 4 watering in bloom. In general I used more organic additives like compost tea and Liquid Karma, and gave a few waterings (4 or so) with high p/k bloom boosters (Fox Farms Open Sesame and P/K 13/14 - 2 waterings each). I also used some Big Bud, Gravity, Final BLOOM and Humboldt Honey ES during mid-late bloom to bump the bud production... then I just watered with the Honey ES until the end (last 15-20 days or so). Again, pretty amazing results, especially for this problem. I am definitely leaning toward doing more organic-based growing, pretty much any time I am not doing a vertical system... I am looking to eventually do organic-based growing in vertical systems... progress on that has been badly derailed by this infestation (which is TERRIBLE in vertical columns, where roots all grow long and together). Hopefully I will be able to start contributing info on good gardening soon and not just killing... my quality has come a LONG way in the last few years, but these critters are KILLING my numbers...
Good luck, goodway, growell.

Please, EVERYONE, (you, reading this!) please fill out the questionnaire if you have not already!

I would recommend Pyrethrum TR bombs in addition to an Azatrol or Azamax root drench in flower to keep the numbers down in flower if you have already treated with the Bayer.

The only bugs I have seen since treatments have been dead FWIW.

Since I feed every other watering I do a treatment then do a feeding and alternate as such. Here is an example of a plant I treated during the flip to flower: ( I also floramite and neem/SM-90 foliar during veg)

Treat with Bayer Fruit and Citris(soil drench @ 6ml per gallon, NO RUNOFF)
Wait a couple days then feed and bomb with Pyrethrum TR bomb (to eliminate fliers and exposed bugs)
Wait a couple days then Gnatrol, wait a couple days then feed. When dry, Azamax or Azatrol @ medium strength then wait a couple days then feed and Pyrethrum TR bomb again (about 10 days after 1st bomb).

At this point in (about 2 1/2 weeks in flower) I do sulfur burns 1x a week for 2 1/2 hours each treatment for weeks 3-6 of flower. I spray my plants about 30 mins before the burner goes off (during lights out) (THANKS FOR THE TIP GREYSKULL) which also is said to slow spider mites if you have them. I only use pyrethrum TR bombs at this point for bugs and baking soda or sodium bicarbonate with a little hydrogen peroxide if I somehow still have PM spots.

For me getting a preventative system of control is helping much more then trying to respond to an infestation.... The reason I'm writing all of this is because last year these aphids beat me, making me start over, this year is a much different story so far. Thanks to everyone efforts here in this community for spreading this info to others! It is important to alternate treatments so these things do not evolve resistances to the only thing that's working right now (like some of the spider mites in this area....)