ongoing biweekly cloning attempts and failures

PaulieWaulie · Apr 15, 2020

noknees said:
time to go 24/0. maybe new lux meter too.

agree.

18/6 seems to be the most common light shed, and is what I see recommended....

You think my Lux meter is giving off a false LOW reading?

It seems to behave pretty accurately, as far as when I move it around distance wise, and under different light types it responds same as it always has.

PaulieWaulie · Apr 15, 2020

Bobby Boucher said:
Saturate oasis cube, weigh, shake out 30% of the water weight. Pop in your clones. Throw in an airtight container under very low light.

I use RO buffered to 100ppm with tap.

View Image

Leave covered, airing out every day or so. Reweigh cubes periodically. Maintain the starting weight. Heating mats have a tendency to dry out some cubes more quickly than others, ime.

8 days later..

View Image View Image

He-yump

That cloth you have over top, what days do you put that on?

So you don't use heat mats ? and that container is 100% sealed and you just air it out once a day for a minute or so ? :tiphat:

PaulieWaulie · Apr 15, 2020

stewart169 said:
I dont grow lots of plants at a time only 4 but I have had almost 100% success taking clones. One week ago I took these 6 and will only grow out 4 of them, and in about four weeks the best looking 4 will be put into the tent. In about a week I will put them into small 5" pots for the time being until they are ready for the tent and up poting to 5 gallon bags.

I really dont understand how people have trouble doing this. If someone keeps doing the same thing and has no luck but refuses to take advice from the ones who do lots of it and have great luck then they are stuck on stupid.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=82292&pictureid=2028158&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

I am taking the advice from users, and trying something different every run. I always have small and big cuts on each run, last run I had domes open and LOW RH. This run I have High RH, and water res instead of direct heat matt. on this run, if lower light levels than 5K LUX is beneficial, we should be seeing all the cuttings on the outside of the light perimeter root. Next run, I will cut my light in half, and only have 1 LED tube instead of 2.

SuperBadGrower · Apr 15, 2020

PaulieWaulie said:
You think my Lux meter is giving off a false LOW reading?

Mine under-reports. Under 3000K leds, 10k lux is about 200 PAR. I imagine each lux meter is off by a different %. By normal conversion factors, 200 PAR should be about 13k lux for those leds. So if mine measures 50k lux it's about 1000 PAR. (Whereas a truly accurate Lux reading there would be ~70k)

Bobby Boucher · Apr 15, 2020

PaulieWaulie said:
That cloth you have over top, what days do you put that on?

So you don't use heat mats ? and that container is 100% sealed and you just air it out once a day for a minute or so ?

That landscape fabric cloth stays on there 'til the clones are ready to be transplanted. As soon as bright light hits them, they are going to try to grow, and simply yellow out.

My 2x2.5x3' T5 cloning tent downstairs is already filled up, so I had to makeshift this area in my veg tent for the pictured clones which I took from a pheno hunt.

The clones in the veg area with the landscape fabric rooted much quicker than the clones in my t5 tent. Might be strain related, but considering how well everything rooted under 3000k with the landscape fabric, I'll be looking into replacing the T5 in my cloning area with a little 120w samsung panel very soon here.

I do use heating mats on controllers, in both areas, set to 85 on the mat, which translates to ~75 in my cubes, as my containers are a bit thick.

The containers I use are either gasketed sterilite containers, or translucent cereal containers, depending on how many clones I need to take. They lock and seal very well. I air them out at least every 2 days, and run a pencil or a pipette along the sides to break any surface tension between the leaves and the walls of the container, to discourage any anaerobic activity from developing in der.

Are you using a laser thermometer to verify surface temps?

pinkus · Apr 15, 2020

A cheap ass fluorescent, rockwool cubes, SMALLER clones, don't become dependant on the dome. The dome makes plants dependant, then they fail. I use the dome for the first day. I do use it when the cubes are ALMOST dry.

It's not complicated.

Oh yeah, CLEAN. I Only cut two clones with each side of the blade, then toss it. I use utility knife blades, so 4 clones total per blade. No hormones, except occasionally willow water if I have made some.

Bobby Boucher · Apr 15, 2020

Buy yourself a hundred pack of sterile, individually wrapped #16 scalpel blades and a handle.

One of the best $10 I ever spent. Utility blades are treated with oil to prevent them from rusting, and are not sterile to begin with. I used them for years.. but.. yeah. Start sterile.

My plants don't fail out of the dome. Keep your veg area above 65% humidity and a dome becomes more or less irrelevant, given.

So much of the dome or domeless argument really depends on how dry the rest of your house gets. The seasons influence some houses more than others.

Me and my gf live alone in a 5.5 br house thats literally all hardwood and tile, and it's poorly insulated. Our heater just stays running. I have to keep big ass humidifiers running in my smaller bedroom to keep my instruments from cracking and splitting.

In my house, we use domes for cloning. It's easier and cheaper than trying to maintain the humidity within a tent.

PaulieWaulie · Apr 15, 2020

pinkus said:
A cheap ass fluorescent, rockwool cubes, SMALLER clones, don't become dependant on the dome. The dome makes plants dependant, then they fail. I use the dome for the first day. I do use it when the cubes are ALMOST dry.

It's not complicated.

Oh yeah, CLEAN. I Only cut two clones with each side of the blade, then toss it. I use utility knife blades, so 4 clones total per blade. No hormones, except occasionally willow water if I have made some.

Heating mat? Whats your RH / TEMP ?

PaulieWaulie · Apr 15, 2020

Bobby Boucher said:
That landscape fabric cloth stays on there 'til the clones are ready to be transplanted. As soon as bright light hits them, they are going to try to grow, and simply yellow out.

My 2x2.5x3' T5 cloning tent downstairs is already filled up, so I had to makeshift this area in my veg tent for the pictured clones which I took from a pheno hunt.

The clones in the veg area with the landscape fabric rooted much quicker than the clones in my t5 tent. Might be strain related, but considering how well everything rooted under 3000k with the landscape fabric, I'll be looking into replacing the T5 in my cloning area with a little 120w samsung panel very soon here.

I do use heating mats on controllers, in both areas, set to 85 on the mat, which translates to ~75 in my cubes, as my containers are a bit thick.

The containers I use are either gasketed sterilite containers, or translucent cereal containers, depending on how many clones I need to take. They lock and seal very well. I air them out at least every 2 days, and run a pencil or a pipette along the sides to break any surface tension between the leaves and the walls of the container, to discourage any anaerobic activity from developing in der.

Are you using a laser thermometer to verify surface temps?

Where to you put your temp probe ?

Yes I have a infrared thermometer that I use to measure the bottom of the cubes. yours are at 75 always?

Bobby Boucher · Apr 15, 2020

Since my containers snap shut, and I don't drill holes in them, I have to simply tape the probe to the mat and keep track of how things are going with the laser, periodically.

Despite all the hotspots on the heating mat, and other variables inside and out, the thick walls of the containers seem to buffer everything out and evenly warm the bottoms (and tops) of the cubes to within a half a degree of each other, at 75-77 at a set temp of 85, depending on how cold or warm it gets in the ambient area.

You'd probably want to set your temp lower. My house is cold and my containers are thick.

The seasons really dictate what's going on in my house. If the grow area can stay 75-77 on its own.. I wouldn't bother with the mats.

*And, FWIW, I don't really strategically cut my clones, unless it happens to node out at the desired height. I'll cut off a branch, submerge it underwater in one of my big sterilite containers, and then taking a caliper in one hand, holding the brand underwater with the other, I'll measure 4.25-4.5 inches down from each head, take a 45 degree cut, and leave the clones to float while I toss the rest of the material to the side. Sometimes I'll let them hydrate a few hours, sometimes a day, sometimes I pop them right into the cube. I haven't lost a clone in years. I don't think I've ever had a clone simply not root in an oasis cube. The one or two I did lose might have gotten sick somehow.. but they all took root. And we're talking about a perpetual cloning situation, since at least the late 90s without a true mother plant, where the clone has been cloned a zillion and a half times over with negligible degeneration.

I do foliar my "moms" with quarter strength nutes and half strength calmag before taking clones, and I do let them rest a bit before clipping, especially if anything looks stressed in the slightest.. I veg 24/0 and clone 24/0. More timers and extension cords = more places for electricity to arc and create a fire. Just how I figure it, anyways.

I recently tried cutting above water and again, none of the plants died.. but it's easy enough to do things underwater with a big enough container.

Im'One · Apr 15, 2020

My studio is whrre i run my stuff, small, low ceiling and concrete floor. Radiant heater and windo air conditioner. No humidity control. My clones are quite a ways from the cfls and they dont put out much light anyway.

noknees · Apr 15, 2020

PaulieWaulie said:
18/6 seems to be the most common light shed, and is what I see recommended....

You think my Lux meter is giving off a false LOW reading?

It seems to behave pretty accurately, as far as when I move it around distance wise, and under different light types it responds same as it always has.

18/6 essentially hasn't worked. if you have a dedicated clone space, why stick with it?

i haven't worked with that exact light before, and you're there with the meter, but this pic would fail my eye test 11/10 times. it just looks like too much. makes me question the meter.

it's easy to have too much light, and borderline-difficult to have too little.

compare with bobby's pic. you don't need a lot.

Bobby Boucher · Apr 15, 2020

Easier to maintain constant temps at 24/0, as well.

I think if I turned my lights off in either my basement tent or my upstairs walk in closet tent for very long, the temps might drop below 65, or simply swing too far or too quickly in either direction.

It's likely the ambient surroundings are too cold or dry, and nearly certain that your lights are too bright. It's also likely the success you were having in the past was seasonal. When your heater runs during the winter, it dries out your house. If your house isn't really well insulated, or is too big to keep stable throughout, you may have to change your cloning technique or location, depending on how the temps and rh act in different parts of your house.

Example, if you leave a door open like I do, heating the entire neighborhood at the convenience of my cats.. maybe I move the clones further from the backdoor, or upstairs where the temps don't swing as hard. During the warmest and coldest parts of the year, I'll often keep my cloning tent directly next to my bed where I know I'll be working to stay comfortable anyways, be it with a space heater or a window unit.

If your clones are yellowing, your light is too bright. Pretty simple to gauge.

pinkus · Apr 16, 2020

PaulieWaulie said:
Heating mat? Whats your RH / TEMP ?

NO mat. bad idea IMO. Temp, from 65-80. RH varies A LOT. none of it matters that much.

Joe was right on the DON'T TAX THE CUTS!! they are in stasis, with no defenses. CLEAN. DO NOT TOUCH!!! I've seen more people kill their clones by fondling them than anything else. Not too much light. Dim.

you should only have a little bit of leaf. Don't want too much transpiration, they can't absorb the water yet. That's what we want to coax them to do. Not try to ram it into there pores. That is part of why dim lights work and bright will kill.

IMO, you are making it way too complicated.

wvkindbud38 · Apr 16, 2020

pinkus said:
NO mat. bad idea IMO. Temp, from 65-80. RH varies A LOT. none of it matters that much.

Joe was right on the DON'T TAX THE CUTS!! they are in stasis, with no defenses. CLEAN. DO NOT TOUCH!!! I've seen more people kill their clones by fondling them than anything else. Not too much light. Dim.

you should only have a little bit of leaf. Don't want too much transpiration, they can't absorb the water yet. That's what we want to coax them to do. Not try to ram it into there pores. That is part of why dim lights work and bright will kill.

IMO, you are making it way too complicated.

I should have my hydrometer mon, and I've gonna start my 45 site hortipots cloner. I really need to take cuts because the plants are getting huge. I'm give them plain water 2 days. I'll probably take them soon and try again. I'm trying to figure plain water 6.0 around 66 degress or should I put a very might veg solution or maybe a lil hormex??? I'm trying to decide if I need the doom, it's so humid. But I could probably use my extra therm pro to watch humidity

PaulieWaulie · Apr 16, 2020

Bobby Boucher said:
Since my containers snap shut, and I don't drill holes in them, I have to simply tape the probe to the mat and keep track of how things are going with the laser, periodically.

Despite all the hotspots on the heating mat, and other variables inside and out, the thick walls of the containers seem to buffer everything out and evenly warm the bottoms (and tops) of the cubes to within a half a degree of each other, at 75-77 at a set temp of 85, depending on how cold or warm it gets in the ambient area.

You'd probably want to set your temp lower. My house is cold and my containers are thick.

The seasons really dictate what's going on in my house. If the grow area can stay 75-77 on its own.. I wouldn't bother with the mats.

*And, FWIW, I don't really strategically cut my clones, unless it happens to node out at the desired height. I'll cut off a branch, submerge it underwater in one of my big sterilite containers, and then taking a caliper in one hand, holding the brand underwater with the other, I'll measure 4.25-4.5 inches down from each head, take a 45 degree cut, and leave the clones to float while I toss the rest of the material to the side. Sometimes I'll let them hydrate a few hours, sometimes a day, sometimes I pop them right into the cube. I haven't lost a clone in years. I don't think I've ever had a clone simply not root in an oasis cube. The one or two I did lose might have gotten sick somehow.. but they all took root. And we're talking about a perpetual cloning situation, since at least the late 90s without a true mother plant, where the clone has been cloned a zillion and a half times over with negligible degeneration.

I do foliar my "moms" with quarter strength nutes and half strength calmag before taking clones, and I do let them rest a bit before clipping, especially if anything looks stressed in the slightest.. I veg 24/0 and clone 24/0. More timers and extension cords = more places for electricity to arc and create a fire. Just how I figure it, anyways.

I recently tried cutting above water and again, none of the plants died.. but it's easy enough to do things underwater with a big enough container.

My house is on the colder side too. Grow room temps are in the 70s often. So I do need the heating matt I think. I also think I have better success rooting in the summer, maybe because things are warmer, so I didn't need the heating matt, which would over heat and dry out rockwool. Idunno. On the next run I will tape the probe on the inside of the bottom of the ray, it has those water channels, and I think the probe will fit in there perfectly then duct tape over top, and then have the cubes sit right in the tray. My trays are the quad trays, and I actually double them up, so I think it also has a pretty even heat distribution.

PaulieWaulie · Apr 16, 2020

pinkus said:
NO mat. bad idea IMO. Temp, from 65-80. RH varies A LOT. none of it matters that much.

Joe was right on the DON'T TAX THE CUTS!! they are in stasis, with no defenses. CLEAN. DO NOT TOUCH!!! I've seen more people kill their clones by fondling them than anything else. Not too much light. Dim.

you should only have a little bit of leaf. Don't want too much transpiration, they can't absorb the water yet. That's what we want to coax them to do. Not try to ram it into there pores. That is part of why dim lights work and bright will kill.

IMO, you are making it way too complicated.

Im calling the next run #5 the ICMAG run. Doing it to a T, as you and everyone says.

SUPER TINY CUTS!. My goal will be that you guys tell me that they are too small, and I need to go bigger. LOL

A single 17W LED TUBE Like 20" over the trays! Giving me probably 1K LUX !

PaulieWaulie · Apr 16, 2020

noknees said:
18/6 essentially hasn't worked. if you have a dedicated clone space, why stick with it?

i haven't worked with that exact light before, and you're there with the meter, but this pic would fail my eye test 11/10 times. it just looks like too much. makes me question the meter.

it's easy to have too much light, and borderline-difficult to have too little.

View Image

compare with bobby's pic. you don't need a lot.

View Image

I guess the reason I thought Light was good is because 5K LUX = 100 Micro Moles which is considered perfect. But also because a 17W LED TUBE replaces the 32W T8 TUBE. And I used to use 2 of those a foot away and had good results, I was getting closer to 10K LUX, and yes yellowing, but also rooting.

Now Im not getting any yellowing, or wilting, indicating any light stress. But if this run with 2 tubes doesn't work, I will go down to 1 on run #5.

Bobby Boucher · Apr 16, 2020

I'll second that heating mats are generally just another point of failure. I use them because I'm a retired boy who can keep his eye on whats going on 24/7, and they do speed things up a bit.

Lots of dudes here don't use them, especially if they don't want to fry their prized genetics accidentally. The probe could go wonky, it could (and probably will) stop making good contact with the mat and set the damn thing to just keep running. Happens to me often enough, but I'm always keeping a close eye on things with my laser.

If I had but one clone.. and no mother to pull more from.. I would definitely skip on the mat.

And, fwiw, I haven't had good luck trying to calibrate everything out when the probe is placed within the cubes or inside the containers. I'd tape it down with some gorilla tape directly to the mat, underneath the container, and slowly start upping the set temp until the inside of your box hits 75.

Im'One · Apr 16, 2020

Maybe im nuts but im just using heat pad meant for humans under my tray with a couple of boards to set it high so it doesnt touch. I stick a meat thermometer on the tray and try to keep it between 70° and 80°

ongoing biweekly cloning attempts and failures

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