Do breeders even IBL anymore?

GMT · Oct 10, 2020

For the same reason we should scold flat earthers, psychics, homeopathy practitioners, pseudo science proponents, anti vaccination bods and kids who get their homework wrong. If we let it go, reality breaks down. Language no longer makes sense. The objective world ceases to exist and subjective reality becomes all that matters. How can we communicate with each other if the same sounds have different meanings to everyone who hears them? How can we write on the internet if the same squiggles do not represent the same concept to all who see them?
Simply, objective reality relies on consistency of comprehension. If there is a right and there is a wrong, we must strive to be right.
Consider yourself scolded.

Tynehead Tom · Oct 10, 2020

whatever floats yer boat GMT LOL

I would like to steer back to the original topic and leave the dogma aside.
For myself I have fallen in love with several inbred lines.... the original biker kush, shiskaberry, Long Valley Royal and a few others where the breeding history has been somewhat documented/disclosed.
I paid 70 bucks US for 2 of the biker V1 packs and then was able to buy a few more packs privately for a little less. I have found plants that are worth (to me) far more than the few hundred dollars I paid for all the packs combined.
I saw aficionado hyping the hell out of thier version of the Long Valley Royal at the emerald cup (not that i was there) and thier vials were going for 500USD and the next release Oil Spill for even more (700?). I simply reached out to a life long friend in fresno that I know was in the loop with ras truth/mandelbrot's brother ben. Soon after I received a pile of packs of long valley royal, pure royal, truthband and a few others.
I'll never pay those kinds of prices for seeds but I would pay dearly for certain genetics if I ever come across it ( hashplant from the bc lowermainland late 90's)

Right now I am experimenting with combining 2 different inbred lines together just for shitsngiggles

stashpot · Oct 18, 2020

I.B.L = In Breeding Line
Anything after the F1 generation is considered IBL
Hence "In Breeding".
Example
Strain A x Strain B = Strain AB F1
Strain AB F1 x Strain AB F1 = AB F2 (IBL) you have inbred the line and that's it's first generation of inbreeding with its family.
Now i consider these Strain AB IBL F1.

Now to get a true breeding (uniform) IBL you follow below.

Strain AB F1 IBL x Strain AB F1 IBL = Strain AB IBL F2
Strain AB F2 IBL x STRAIN AB F2 IBL = AB F3 IBL anything from here will be mostly uniform and breed true to your parents.

If you want a IBL BC1.
Strain AB F3 IBL x Strain AB (F1,F2 P1 or P2)= Strain AB BC1

Strain AB BC1 x Strain AB BC1 = Strain AB BC1 F1 Generation. (true IBL F1 vigour and uniformity.

GMT · Oct 18, 2020

Shouldn't spread misinformation like that stashpot, some newbie might think its true.

Tonygreen · Oct 18, 2020

You gotta go a little deeper to see real hybrid vigor. F3 x F3 won't get it unless you are starting with mostly homozygous p1 material to start with.

stashpot · Oct 29, 2020

Point out the misinformation GMT?

Its actually F4 x F4 technically, because i denoted the first generation when the IBL is made and start my IBL as F1 and not F2 as i mentioned in my last comment.
Also i said anything after this point F4 x F4 (technically) would be uniform, which would basically be the 5th generation.

another example to make it clear for the masters or newbies

.

A x B = AB F1 First generation.
AB + AB = AB IBL F1 (first generation of IBL 2nd generation of AB overall)
AB IBL F1 x AB IBL F1 = AB IBL F2 (second generation IBL 3rd gen overall)
AB IBL F2 x AB IBL F2 = AB IBL F3 ( third generation IBL 4th gen overall)
then i said anything after this point so it would be 5th generation.

I have the exact method on a photo in a diagram and i'm pretty sure it was DJ shorts. (can't seem to locate it)
Also i have seen studies and breeders say there is not much difference in the generations in some strains after F4 so 5 and 6 wont show much difference compared to generation 4.
Then i seen some say 10 generations lol
Who knows!!! but my information is not misinformation, i could be wrong about my uniformity after F4 but my info is good. I guess its all down to the breeder and how he selects and how similar the Parents are and how homozygous the strains are to begin with.

You could cross AB x AB 100 times will you end up with better strain than generation 10 or 5 or 45?? who knows.

WHIPEDMEAT · Oct 29, 2020

stashpot said:
I.B.L = In Breeding Line
Anything after the F1 generation is considered IBL
Hence "In Breeding".

totally wrong, it is inbred line, and those have to be true breeding for several attributes.

stashpot · Oct 29, 2020

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2025401&postcount=12

stashpot · Oct 29, 2020

inbred is the result of inbreeding genius. . . it doesn't matter if you say inbred line and i say inbreeding line its the same thing. lmao
I ignore you now.

stashpot · Oct 29, 2020

WHIPEDMEAT said:
totally wrong, it is inbred line, and those have to be true breeding for several attributes.

inbred is the result of inbreeding genius. . . it doesn't matter if you say inbred line and i say inbreeding line its the same thing. lmao
I ignore you now.

GMT · Oct 30, 2020

Where would I start? You haven't even read the thread to know the difference between an IL and an IBL.
You're relying on DJ Shorts for science, he bred some nice plants, but he wasn't into science.
You're talking about F2's being an IL. They aren't even close. F2's will be all over the place leaning to one P1 or the other.
P1 x P2 = F1
F1 generation contain 50% of the genetic content of each parent. But don't assume each F1 seed contains the same 50%. So your F2 seed will be somewhere between 0% and 100% of your P1, and the next F2 will be the same with P2. So your F3 may be replicating your F1 generation depending on the selections made.
So you are still no where near a stable IL line.
Selections are key, simple maths just don't tell you all that much.
To restore vigour, you must first lose it. This means, to achieve this goal, you first have to have fucked up your breeding program. Adding complexity is different to restoring vigour.
I could go and check where I am, if its F14 or F15, but I can't be arsed getting off the sofa for this, it doesn't make much difference. The point is, each of those generations were bred with both parents exhibiting a particular trait. Yet still only one third of the seeds produce this trait. Some traits are hard to lock in. Especially those that require more than one gene to express. Some traits can never be locked in across all the plants in a line for that reason. To suggest that you can get any line to be the same across all offspring, shows how little you understand about co dominant genes and multi gene traits.
I'll leave you with those corrections for now. Get yourself into the breeders lab here, there's loads of good threads full of information and links to research papers that will help.

stashpot · Oct 30, 2020

GMT said:
Where would I start? You haven't even read the thread to know the difference between an IL and an IBL.
You're relying on DJ Shorts for science, he bred some nice plants, but he wasn't into science.
You're talking about F2's being an IL. They aren't even close. F2's will be all over the place leaning to one P1 or the other.
P1 x P2 = F1
F1 generation contain 50% of the genetic content of each parent. But don't assume each F1 seed contains the same 50%. So your F2 seed will be somewhere between 0% and 100% of your P1, and the next F2 will be the same with P2. So your F3 may be replicating your F1 generation depending on the selections made.
So you are still no where near a stable IL line.
Selections are key, simple maths just don't tell you all that much.
To restore vigour, you must first lose it. This means, to achieve this goal, you first have to have fucked up your breeding program. Adding complexity is different to restoring vigour.
I could go and check where I am, if its F14 or F15, but I can't be arsed getting off the sofa for this, it doesn't make much difference. The point is, each of those generations were bred with both parents exhibiting a particular trait. Yet still only one third of the seeds produce this trait. Some traits are hard to lock in. Especially those that require more than one gene to express. Some traits can never be locked in across all the plants in a line for that reason. To suggest that you can get any line to be the same across all offspring, shows how little you understand about co dominant genes and multi gene traits.
I'll leave you with those corrections for now. Get yourself into the breeders lab here, there's loads of good threads full of information and links to research papers that will help.

you have corrected nothing in relation to what i said you just took what you have found and applied it to my way other people have ha different results, and to suggest otherwise is foolish as you should known how cannabis actually works and that's different results all across the board when it comes to breeding.

you and i and everyone else havn't a clue what a F5 or F25 will produce until we do it...u could be going backwards in results but forwards in generations.. it sounds like you know what your doing though with your 15 generations of inbreeding. Maybe one day you'll figure it out
no i did not suggest you can get any line to be the same across all offspring i said the plants will be mostly uniform after generation 5 your creating your own version of what i said.

anyway i'm not saying your wrong in what you say, but clearly your not open to others findings just because its taking you over f15 doesnt mean it can take the next guy.

GMT · Oct 30, 2020

I and others corrected you on the definition of IBL, and what you are talking about is creating an IL.
I and others have pointed out you won't get uniform plants as quickly as you have stated, and I have tried to point out why and give you an example. That's all. You seem to have an interest, and I don't want to try and squash that, I just want us to get on the same page with the terms we use, and the info we put out there for the newbies who hopefully read this stuff in the future.

stashpot · Oct 30, 2020

GMT said:
I and others corrected you on the definition of IBL, and what you are talking about is creating an IL.
I and others have pointed out you won't get uniform plants as quickly as you have stated, and I have tried to point out why and give you an example. That's all. You seem to have an interest, and I don't want to try and squash that, I just want us to get on the same page with the terms we use, and the info we put out there for the newbies who hopefully read this stuff in the future.

I understand what an IBL is man i just think you can get it quicker than we think on certain strains and maybe not so on others or maybe never. when i said uniformity i mean the phenotypes are all very similar with similar traits. maybe not identical but very much the same with slight variations.

I guess none of us will ever truly understand what happens in those cells to produce what we get generation after generation. If we are talking in terms of making an IBL then i use IBL as the term of method of breeding i know an F2 F3 F4 isn't an IBL but if that strain is is in the process of becoming an IBL then surely you use that term until it becomes a true breeding IBL.

Maybe i view IBL a little differently to me its also a breeding method where you in bred that strain with itself regardless of generation, weather it breeds true to all the same phenotypes is a different story.

anyway all good i have no problem being corrected we all love breeding thats all that matters.

Tonygreen · Oct 30, 2020

This is all highly dependent on your starting material as well. Is it mostly homozygous already?
Also keen to note in working torward inbreeding a heterozygous plant the homozygous expression may not be what the heterozygote was.

GMT · Oct 30, 2020

Again, for the last time, IBL = inbred backcrossed line. And inbred line is IL.

eyesdownchronic · Oct 30, 2020

stashpot said:
I understand what an IBL is man i just think you can get it quicker than we think on certain strains and maybe not so on others or maybe never. when i said uniformity i mean the phenotypes are all very similar with similar traits. maybe not identical but very much the same with slight variations.

I guess none of us will ever truly understand what happens in those cells to produce what we get generation after generation. If we are talking in terms of making an IBL then i use IBL as the term of method of breeding i know an F2 F3 F4 isn't an IBL but if that strain is is in the process of becoming an IBL then surely you use that term until it becomes a true breeding IBL.

Maybe i view IBL a little differently to me its also a breeding method where you in bred that strain with itself regardless of generation, weather it breeds true to all the same phenotypes is a different story.

anyway all good i have no problem being corrected we all love breeding thats all that matters.

what you are referring to is linebreeding. linebreeding and an inbred line are two different things. the terminology can be a little confusing.

eyesdownchronic · Oct 30, 2020

stashpot said:
Point out the misinformation GMT?

Its actually F4 x F4 technically, because i denoted the first generation when the IBL is made and start my IBL as F1 and not F2 as i mentioned in my last comment.
Also i said anything after this point F4 x F4 (technically) would be uniform, which would basically be the 5th generation.

another example to make it clear for the masters or newbies .

A x B = AB F1 First generation.
AB + AB = AB IBL F1 (first generation of IBL 2nd generation of AB overall)
AB IBL F1 x AB IBL F1 = AB IBL F2 (second generation IBL 3rd gen overall)
AB IBL F2 x AB IBL F2 = AB IBL F3 ( third generation IBL 4th gen overall)
then i said anything after this point so it would be 5th generation.

I have the exact method on a photo in a diagram and i'm pretty sure it was DJ shorts. (can't seem to locate it)
Also i have seen studies and breeders say there is not much difference in the generations in some strains after F4 so 5 and 6 wont show much difference compared to generation 4.
Then i seen some say 10 generations lol
Who knows!!! but my information is not misinformation, i could be wrong about my uniformity after F4 but my info is good. I guess its all down to the breeder and how he selects and how similar the Parents are and how homozygous the strains are to begin with.

You could cross AB x AB 100 times will you end up with better strain than generation 10 or 5 or 45?? who knows.

cant much follow what youre saying. there is very much a difference between an f4and an f8. also, what a "breeder" sees (pheno) in a plant and what it passes (geno) are two different sets of things.

please do some more research before you start spouting random shit.

'Boogieman' · Oct 30, 2020

Say you are working with a strain from a breeder (Bodhi) who only uses 1 male and 1 female to make his F1 polyhybrid lines. Would it be pointless to use multiple males and females if you wanted to further the line? I'm impressed with how a few phenos of Time Bandit did for me outdoors and made seeds on lower branches with only 1 male that seemed pretty similar in shape and smell to the female phenos (2 similar phenos) I liked.

eyesdownchronic · Oct 30, 2020

'Boogieman' said:
Say you are working with a strain from a breeder (Bodhi) who only uses 1 male and 1 female to make his F1 polyhybrid lines. Would it be pointless to use multiple males and females if you wanted to further the line? I'm impressed with how a few phenos of Time Bandit did for me outdoors and made seeds on lower branches with a chosen male that seemed pretty similar in shape and smell to the female phenos I liked.

no, it would not be pointless. if each f1 polyhybrid captures 50% of the genome of the parents then if you keep two, its fair to assume you will keep ~75% of the genetic material of the parents. nnow if the m and f are similar it may even be less. if you use three, lets say 1m and 2 f, you have two pairings each capturing about ~75%, so you can assume about 87.5%. etc. 2 to 3 males and females should be plenty to capture all the variation of the line. it can be a fair practice to keep plants that arent so great in the early generations because they may have a favorable trait that can tag onto another pheno later. (such as a resistance or something.)

Do breeders even IBL anymore?

The Tri Guy

Well-known member

Member

The Tri Guy

Active member

Member

Modortalan

Member

Member

Member

The Tri Guy

Member

The Tri Guy

Member

Active member

The Tri Guy

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Active member