Grand Doggy Purps - The Shakedown Run

I should clarify, the keeper that takes 3 weeks is not GDgP. It's my special cross of the old Bubba Kush to Sour Deisel. I'm sorry I wasn't very clear in that post. Using the process I'm doing, anything that sits in the cloner for more than 45 days total runs the risk of mold and other nasties, even with the best of care.

GDgP I would classify as a fast rooter, the exception in my case would still be in the 'normal' range.

-AK

Day 33 Veg - Day 0 Bloom Update:

I had originally scheduled these for 36 days, but they were tall enough - 8" to 12", and a spot was open - so here we go!


Cloner at 33 days veg


Here's our clone recovered from the last hack job


And after the final veg prune



As you can see, we now have 2 growth tips, strong stalk, and good roots. They already smell sweet. Nicking those shoots off the stem, i actually drooled out of the corner of my mouth in anticipation from the aroma wafting its way to my nose.

Time to go to the show!

Time for an aeroflo tip

I plan to add tips and trix for aeroflo users and point to this thread in the future for those seeking aerowisdom. I will identify tips up front so those that don't care can easily skip them.


The main reason the aeroflo system works so well is that it encourages 2 kinds of root growth - aero roots and water roots.

aero roots look like fine hairs or fuzz - and these roots allow the rapid uptake of nutrients from fine highly oxygenated water droplets. This is where the explosive growth from very low ppms comes from.

water roots are thicker and form matts in the nutrient solution. These are the kind of roots you get from DWC and NFT hydro methods.

A key to make sure you are taking advantage of this from day one is how you plant your clones.


You can see the roots go all around the edge of the cup and the end of the main root mass comes down 3" out the bottom of the cup.

The roots around the edge encourage aero roots to quickly grow a fringe completely around the cup, while the long tip swims in the nutrient flow ensuring plenty of moisture for heavy respiration.

There is a price to pay for all this hyper growth. Growing with aeroflos is like a 4D hyperscrog. It takes daily maintainance, plant knowledge, and data records to be successfull. Your memory is simply not good enough. One mistake and you can lose the whole grow in under 24 hours. You need documents and proceedures.

Here are my tracking documents:

Cover Page



You can see the footprint of the unit so every hole can be keyed if needed. All starting info is gleened from the last run to ratchet the ladies into maximum performance.

Data Pages


Notice that each page is 2 weeks long - so 70 days is 5 sheets. I set these up in advance with reccommended res change times, countdown to next clone cut timing, and any special things anticipated for the run.

Filled out


Here is GDP's cover sheet. As data sheets get filled out I'll post them, so you can see the decisions I made to events as they occured.

This booklet filled out becomes the starting point for the next run of the strain.

Good Data is the best recipe for great weed!


Back to our scheduled GDP grow.

-AK

Day 0 Bloom



I realize this looks like a run of Charlie Brown Christmas Trees at the moment. As you will see, it takes a firm hand with the ladies to keep them from going out of control in aero.

As always, your questions and comments are welcome.

-AK

AeroFlo Tips n Trix Warning!


Drain Tubes and Spray Lines

During setup these two things can make or break the run.


Drain Tubes:

Unless you are rooting clones in the unit, you want the drain tubes all the way down, all the time. In fact I ripped out the zip tie 'handles' to push them even lower. The more pooled nutes on the bottom of the root chamber, the more inhibited the growth. I put thin blocks under the footers of the unit to ensure the angle of the return flow leaves a quarter inch at most on the bottom.





Spray Lines:

These are the weakest link the system, and require the most attention. If you over tighten them, they break. Get a couple extras and throw em on the shelf - you will thank me at 4 am when you hear something that sounds like a knuckle pop, and look at the unrepairable $8 spray line in your hand that could kill your grow in 12 hours.

They can clog up and are difficult to clean. A thin layer of brown algal plaque accumulates over time inside the spray tubes, and there really isn't much you can do about it. Avoid adding organic particulates and any micro beneficials. The AeroFlo is a perfect brewing machine, and with all the extra oxygen, everything goes crazy.

I love black strap molasses and organic teas from dirt daze. In fact I still only use those in the mom room. So in a bold early experiment, I added 75 ml to a run that was about half done. Opening up the next day, it appeared that elves had eaten all of santas cookies, and helpfully shat them out around the base of each plant. A brown foaming ooze was erupting out of every netpot. It added a sweet earthy smell to the room that could only be described as keebler elf shit. Needless to say it took days to clean up, and the plants lost at least a week of developement.

The lines are hard to get clean. I have a long plastic underbed storge unit(thanx Casa dePot!), where all spray lines soak in lightly bleached water for 48 hours before power spraying them out. Even so, you must frequently check that they are spraying properly.



This a pic of my Sour Bubba Kush at 17 days bloom. Notice how one of these is not like the others? In the lower right hand corner you can see what looks like a runt. The clones were all the same size going in. The difference was that the last hole in the spray line got clogged and went unoticed for the first 4 days. The taproot was still submerged in solution, but the plant didn't get the fine spray that makes aero go. In fact its a pretty good example of the performance difference between aero and nft type methods. It was sprayin when I planted, I just got lazy and didn't do my normal 24 hour post assembly inspection.

My loss, and hopefully your gain!

-AK

amazingly detailed bro
we love it

keep up the great show

peace

wanna see these gDP's in bloom sucka!!!!

-Pizza Man

Just building anticipation! I better pull it off!


-ojd

Thanx for the kind words. I hope you don't mind all the methodology in this thread. I debated putting this in the hydro forum, but I hope to draw people to this forum from elsewhere in the future - to show what can be done with your gear. I only want to get this detailed on how-to's once. I figured if I'm going to share my hard won secrets, it may as well benefit the folks who produced the plant that inspired me to get out of my bunker in the first place.

-AK

Day 7 Update




They have recovered from the move to bloom. The first 7 days are all about establishing roots and a little tip growth.



Here is one shoot. Everything looks good with nice new growth and no tip burn on the leaves. Tip burn has been a historic problem with all aero systems. Some have postulated K problems as being the source of trouble, but as you will see, it is possible to go through the entire run with minimal tip burn.

We will be tracking this individual shoot throughout the run.





Now here is where the action is. You can see the roots have almost fully colonized the bottom rim. The long side root barbules are begining to develope the small hairs that will turbo boost plant growth throughout the remainder of the run.


AeroFlo Tip:

Day 10 is about the last day you can mess with moving the netpots. I reccommend checking your clone layout in the unit - making sure the placement of plants is giving you a nice amplitheater or bowl shape by height. Pulling out or moving plants beyond this time runs the risk of root damage. We have spent considerable time and energy to get those extra fragile roots. Yanking on em and stuffing them back in is asking for trouble.

As always your questions and comments are welcome.

-AK

great reporting so far aerokrafter & good to see you here in the csg forums
thanks a lot for your detailed explanations m8! very helpful indeed.


one thing i'd like to ask about your data pages, specifically your nute regimens:
since there are columns named A and B on those pages... any words on your favorite nutes (experience) for use with aero systems ? which series(A/B) or manufacturer do you prefer and rely on nowadays?
i've read canna aqua is still THE shit when it comes to aero because its quiet stable with ph and also Ec, no ?

would love to hear which regimen you rely on.

thanks in advance!

Great thread AK!

You can really learn a lot here people. This is the reason I joined this site.

So the Chem daddy adds speed and potency to the mix. I now see the genius. Not sure why I overlooked this one.

A few questions:

Do you always space your plants like that?

How long is your light rail?

What kind of yield per plant do you expect in a keeper?

What base nutrients do you use? I'm currently using the Maxi series.

Do you ever get away for a vacation?

Really nice work AK! Thanks so much!

R.Fortune

-Wizoo
I have a lengthy post about nutes rolling around in my head. There is so much snake oil, bullshit and outright misinformation out there when it comes to nutes, especially with the aeroflo. I promise to reveal all soon.

-R Fortune
Thanx for the kind words. I'll do my best to answer your questions:


Spacing

I checkerboard sites for several reasons:

In the cloner and using my methods, there is not enough room to get high quality clones to go up to 45 days if every site is full. If you are flowering 2" clones, its possible to put 2 clippings per site - just watch out for root entanglement.

In bloom once again its about space, light and quality. In the AeroFlo its possible to fill every site, however the resultant jungle becomes very difficult to manage and the quality of finished product suffers. In a scrog you are flattening out the plant to max out light, while with my method you are exploding the plant into plantlets - only producing the highest quality tops. It's really about how you will most efficiently use light.

Plant numbers. By topping and checkerboarding, I get the same number of tops - 36 - as a straight up SOG with twice the number of plants - while achieving much more control and higher quality results. Cutting the number of plants you have to deal with in half, while maintaining yeild and improving quality, is a pretty good deal - considering the only costs are 2 extra weeks in the vegger, and a little extra work from the grower. This becomes even more of an issue with multiple units.

Light Rail:

The light moves about 3'. It travels from edge to edge of the canopy with a small pause at each end. Adjusting this pause allows you to control the "dish" or "pillow" of the canopy. The flatter the canopy at the end - the better the results. This method gives me a 5' x 5' x 3' cube of great even light to work with.


Yeild:

Yeild is always second to buzz in my philosophy. That being said, at some point you have to pick what is worth your time and bloom room space. For me that minimum number for keepers is 1.7oz/plant average. This is just under 2lbs/1k - pretty respectable. My overall average goal is around 2.5. I expect to get around 2.5 with GDP. To get beyond these numbers requires special genetics. I found a plant that is just that. Next month I plan to start a run with the expressed goal of getting 5 lbs from 1k of light. It will be something new and challenging for me, and I plan to use every trick I know to pull it off.

Nutes:

Look for this soon. I am still thinking about how best to explain it all.


Vacations:

Yes - rarely! Growing at this level is like having dairy cows. Top off the rezes with RO water at lightrise, wait at least 4 hrs to measure and feed, and then deal with "the calving room" every day - the plants understand the concept of "weekend" about as much as cows. Some times I miss the "kiss" of dirt, but every time I open up the bloom room, the rush of sights and smells keeps me motivated to continue making it better.


-Hope this helps!

-AK

woolybear said:

glad to see another doggy grower doing it right!

I've notice out of my 3 doggies, one cloned like a dream, with very vigourous clones,

the other two not as much... after a month 3/6 of the cuts havent rooted, but are still alive

luckily the good one smells like a dream and i do have rooted cuts of the other two phenos.... i'll tagging along

Click to expand...

I also have a nice but very slow pheno of the doggy that refuses to want to clone. Like others have said almost a month to get roots, its insane. But my keeper pheno clones like a damn dream!!!

Looks like I got lucky getting decent rooters! I must say that I feel extremely lucky finding the pursecandy pheno. Of course much of that "luck" has to do with the great cross CSG has pulled off.

talktosamson said:

I also have a nice but very slow pheno of the doggy that refuses to want to clone. Like others have said almost a month to get roots, its insane. But my keeper pheno clones like a damn dream!!!

Click to expand...

I noticed they either root like hell or slow as hell
I have 3 and 2 rooted in plain water sitting off to the side in 10 days, nice long white filimentous type roots.
the other took 3+wks.
you could throw those 2 on the floor and they would root!
the majority of the GDPs are extremely vigorous

Thanks AK for answering my questions.

To get beyond these numbers requires special genetics. I found a plant that is just that. Next month I plan to start a run with the expressed goal of getting 5 lbs from 1k of light

Click to expand...

Interesting..... Wonder what that could be?

I also agree with you that the High or the quality of the intoxication should come first.

R.Fortune

AeroFlo Tips n Trix Warning!

Nutes

In every gold rush, the majority of the money is not made by miners, but by shops, bars, cheats and hoes until large corporations take over and squeeze everyone out. Sounds pretty familiar to those in this green rush.

Nutes are the new patent medicines - they promise to cure everything for everyone, but rarely disclose whats in it. Customers get bottles with shiny hypnotic labels covered in crypto meta science, while the covered wagon trundels off in the night to the next town full of suckers.

Every one is on their own to figure out what works and how to use it. Communities such as ours help, but ultimately we all have to experiment to find what is best in our application.

So my plan is to show you what I use, what I found not to work, and my theories as to why. These results are my own data and your mileage may vary. I represent no commercial interest and my only concern is results - I'm bound to piss some one off!


I'm going to break this up into 3 sections: moms, clones, and bloom.


Moms

The best way to analyze for improvement in any dynamic system, is to break up the process into its constituent parts and look for limiting factors at each step.

So the output and limiting factor of the mom zone is high quality clips for the cloner. For the best possible bud, we must have the best possible group of clippings to begin with.

Keeping many different moms of different sizes lush and happy at the same time requires some special food indeed.



I spent several years in dirt before moving on to the next step. The greatest thing I learned in dirt was how to formulate organic biotic teas.

Here's what you need:


Here is the base recipe

In 5 gallon bucket of RO water with airstones add:

1 Teaspoon Subculture M
1 Teaspoon Subculture B
4 Teaspoons Black Strap Molasses
4 Tablespoons Peruvian Seabird Guano

Allow to brew for at least 3 days. It is common for a foamy head to rise and fall a few times as everything get broken down. There is very little odor for all of the shit goin on here.

How to use it:

1 - Take out the airstones.

2 - Add 1 teaspoon of each Subculture. We are refreshing the current brew and innoculating the next in one step here.

3 - Stir vigorously. Some people strain out their teas, but I found them more effective with all the particulates in it. If you do not stir, its possible to burn plants.

4 - Dilute into watering can 50/50 with RO water for large and older plants.

25% poop soup/75% RO water for smaller and younger plants

Do not use more than 3/4s of your poop soup bucket because we are doing a continious brew.

5 - For each gallon of soup removed, add back 1 teaspoon molasses and 1 tablespoon guano, then refill with RO water and return airstones.


I use this once every week, and use plain RO water for all other waterings.

Warning - clorine and other contaminents will KILL the critters we are growing - use RO water.

This is by far the cheapest and best diet for vegging I have found. It allows you to use smaller containers for smaller root balls - without running the risk of autoflowering. It's great for AK47 and sweet tooth crosses that normally throw a fit unless they are in a 20 gallon pot. The airstones push the developement of aerobic beneficials, while inhibiting the nasty anaerobics.

Bonus Flowering Tea Recipe:
Just substitute Bat guano for seabird guano in the base recipe for a PK boost. For added micronutrients toss in some small bricked alfalpha cubes. Caution this brew has a stink. I grew super dank organic for years - using only these teas.


Next up - cloner nutes and trix

-AK

Hi AK,

In every gold rush, the majority of the money is not made by miners, but by shops, bars, cheats and hoes until large corporations take over and squeeze everyone out. Sounds pretty familiar to those in this green rush.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is historically accurate, but lost on most.

Nice info here. I have never made one of these tea's before.

I have a few questions:

What brand molasses do you recommend? (just saw the molasses jar in your pic. I'll try Whole Foods.)

Should the molasses be sulfured or un-sulfured?

Do you do an EC check before you feed your moms?

What size containers are you keeping your moms in?

Do you use Smart Pots?

Thanks!

R.Fortune

-R Fortune

Any brand will do. I prefer sulphinated simply because sulfur is a good micronutrient by itself, and to desulphinate the molasses the manufacturer has to pass it through another process that strips a small amount of other micronutrients. I just go to the grocery store and look for the brand with most micros in it. Just look at all the great stuff in this $4 bottle:


Some times the cheaper brands are better - because they don't process it as much. Here is my favorite $2 bottle of plant fertilizer:


It's sulphured and actually has more iron than the above brand.

I don't ec check the tea. If you happen to run the tea too hot - the worst that you will get is a little over nitro load that will give you a little leaf curl. It won't burn unless you really mess up the recipe and dilution steps.

I start everything in 32 oz styro cups. Medium size is a gallon pot, and large plants go into 3 gallon pots. I have kept moms for over 2 years in pots this size - lush and providing flush after flush of clones.

If you want to try a cheap experiment - use the tea recipe without the subcultures. You wont get quite the boost without them - but for $20 you have enough tea for 6 months. Flush, then pour it on your most pitiful plant and be amazed. It took me almost 2 years of messing with first DWC, then NFT, and finally aero before I was able to duplicate and finally surpass the quality of buds grown with these teas.

-AK

AeroFlo Tips n Trix Warning!


Nutes - Cloner


It's time to leave the warm vibe of dirt and mother nature. Aeroponic growing requires using synthetics - we gotta leave our helpful beneficials behind.


Here is the goal:


These cloners are darn near fool proof. I prefer the turbo cloner - they seem to have fixed all the annoying things with other models. No external air pump, no "splash holes" that drool down the side, and vinyl pucks that handle bleach better.

As for nutes - its hard to screw up. It's very rare to lose a single clone. I've cloned with 0 nutes successfully in these things - tho adding nutes avoids added recovery time from yellowing. I have used Ionic, GH, Sensi and DM all without problems. Just stay between 450 and 550 ppm and pH range of 5.5 to 6.5.

One trick I did find was to use extra K. It seems all aeroponic systems can use a little extra K because of the differential root formation and the nutrient delivery method. I used Potash+ with all those brands - It's stable and buffered - doesn't nail the pH.

Here are the products I'm currently running in my cloners:


I picked DM because of its stable pH. Like I said earlier, I haven't found one NOT to work. Those Nute bottles are two years old and only half empty - even with multiple cloners in use, you won't need much. I'd reccommend 1 liter bottles: Old Nutes = New Problems. I'll be tossing these soon, just out of principle.

Formulas:

I use 3ml/gallon for all three nutes.

48 site turbocloner - 15A 15B 15K+
60 site aerocloner - 30A 30B 30K+

For me this works out to around 500 ppm and 6.4 pH.

Tips:

I don't top off the cloners - I just change out the res with new nutes when the solution level looses a couple inches. The cost is 5 minutes and 5 cents - cheap vs starving or burning your clones with addbacks. Remember: When in Doubt - Throw it Out!

The cleaner, the better. Use bleach, take apart the pump, and soak the manifold. One of the problems with cloners is that they heat up. Heat + food + innoculation from you not cleaning = trouble with tribbles. Any time you get over 82 degrees - pythium will happily slime your pretty new roots.

Bloom nutes are next. Those are a bit more complicated.

As always, your questions and comments are welcome.

-AK