Let's not bullshit each other, what yields are vert growers achieving?

GuerrillaRed · May 22, 2015

I've been a dedicated vert grower for my last couple of grows. I like the ease of vert lights and in my mind I thought it was more efficient that overhead. However after having some in-depth discussion with a reformed vert grower and being somewhat disappointed with the yield of my last harvest, I want to know where other growers are at on this.

My last grow was 13 plants, nine about two months into veg and four I'd say about 3 weeks into veg. I pulled around 2 lbs under 4 750w HPS vert bulbs.

Granted it wasn't the most optimal of grows but that seems inefficient to me. After talking to the other grower who's vehemently against vert grows because smaller yields, I'm wondering what other people are experiencing?

Arminius · May 22, 2015

I have hit as high as 1.2 GPW Vert, but it took at least a year of tweaking.
I wouldn't approach Vert from a Flat perspective. Your biggest struggle will be to maximize your use of the vertical canopy. Take a flat canopy, turn it 90 degrees vertical. Now imagine that only 60% of your canopy is full.
There are a few grows on this forum that show a full canopy, and a lot with big holes, or unused light.
Less than optimal grows are the worst way to form a comparison. Way too many variables... Only when you have a dialed room can you start doing side by sides.

Ichabod Crane · May 22, 2015

The last room I did a full count on was 48.25 from two 1k bulbs. I lost 40% of that room to stem nematodes. Three plants out of five were harvestable. One of the three was a low yielder and one a heavy yielder.

I dont usually weigh a entire room because it may take a month to harvest it all. I do this to keep under my legal weight limit. If it is left on the plant it counts on my plant count and not my weight count.

But like said above you need a full canopy to get good yield. Many people dont fill the canopy out like they do on a flat grow then bitch about low yields. Takes some time to figure out how to do that vert. It is easier to fill a flat canopy than a vert.

Scrappy-doo · May 22, 2015

I've run both for years. I found them to both be fairly equivalent yield-wise, but a vert garden is much more work to really dial in than a horizontal garden is. It looks like you'd get a lot more from vert, but after switching back to horizontal, I don't find that to be the case. You get more canopy area in a vert setup, but you get less penetration and your plant takes up more space in a vert garden than it would in a horizontal, so it's somewhat of an illusion that you have more to work with.

catalyte · May 22, 2015

Vert Growing has the potential to yield more than horizontal rooms, BUT, like Arminius wrote already, it takes alot of tweaking and extra work to achieve this. personally i hated working in a vert environment but i know others like IchCrane can easily do 2# per 1k so, it all depends if its worth it to the grower for an extra 25%(in my experience) than horizontal....

Scrappy-doo · May 22, 2015

Growers hit 2 per 1k horizontal as well though. The real benefit of growing vert is if you have space restricitons.

bobblehead · May 22, 2015

Scrappy-doo said:
Growers hit 2 per 1k horizontal as well though. The real benefit of growing vert is if you have height restricitons.

Ichabod Crane · May 22, 2015

I grow vert because it fits my grow style better.

For me square foot grow space is at a premium. With vert I can put out 5 pounds in 35 square foot with room to work on my plants.

Another reason it works for me is I dont have to bend over. I can sit on a bucket for the low area and stand for the high areas. My back likes that.

I can also run different strains with out screwing up the lights. If one grows to much I can move it back from the light. On a flat I would have to raise the light and the slower growers would be to far from the light for best growth.

But like I said it fits my grow style best. To me it is not about yield.

stoned-trout · May 23, 2015

I have tried it a few times....not for me....yeehaw

Reaspberry Rip · May 23, 2015

In a 40" X 40" X 6.5ft tent I'm running a perpetual 3 plant (1 per mo.) with a 400 HPS down the middle. My screens run 26" X 40" tall and the plants over-run to 46/48" tall X 30" wide.
Quantity varies a lot depending on strains. Generally speaking I get way more from indicas. A good indie will give me up to 1 1/4# run double layer on the screen. Where as a sativa may give 6 - 8 oz.
Hybreds seems to depend on dominance. As I said, "Generally". I have had exceptions with some good sats and crap indies.
What seems to work well for me is topping early to get a few main beams going and encourage branching from there. I'll FIM a few times to keep it all growing up somewhat evenly. I start training to the screen under horizontal lighting and regulate for node spacing.
Trick is filling the entire screen with layers. Don't bunch up the layers, let them space out and fill in between (and a little ahead) of the back layer. With the 2 layers I can still see a little when looking through them. They like room and bud like crazy.

Arminius · May 23, 2015

Reaspberry Rip said:
In a 40" X 40" X 6.5ft tent I'm running a perpetual 3 plant (1 per mo.) with a 400 HPS down the middle. My screens run 26" X 40" tall and the plants over-run to 46/48" tall X 30" wide.
Quantity varies a lot depending on strains. Generally speaking I get way more from indicas. A good indie will give me up to 1 1/4# run double layer on the screen. Where as a sativa may give 6 - 8 oz.
Hybreds seems to depend on dominance. As I said, "Generally". I have had exceptions with some good sats and crap indies.
What seems to work well for me is topping early to get a few main beams going and encourage branching from there. I'll FIM a few times to keep it all growing up somewhat evenly. I start training to the screen under horizontal lighting and regulate for node spacing.
Trick is filling the entire screen with layers. Don't bunch up the layers, let them space out and fill in between (and a little ahead) of the back layer. With the 2 layers I can still see a little when looking through them. They like room and bud like crazy.

Topping is one of the keys to filling in the top third of your light coverage. When I was getting close to 1 GPW, my eyes were on the single top in the top third, and kicking myself for not topping...

Scrappy-doo · May 23, 2015

bobblehead said:

Thanks bobble. I can't limit vert use to only height restricted spaces though. I've used it in a 5x5x4 space which would have been impossible to grow with a hood. I've also stacked 2k in a 5x5x8 space where if I were horizontal I'd only be able to fit 1k.

DunHav`nFun · May 23, 2015

Scrappy-doo said:
I've run both for years. I found them to both be fairly equivalent yield-wise, but a vert garden is much more work to really dial in than a horizontal garden is. It looks like you'd get a lot more from vert, but after switching back to horizontal, I don't find that to be the case. You get more canopy area in a vert setup, but you get less penetration and your plant takes up more space in a vert garden than it would in a horizontal, so it's somewhat of an illusion that you have more to work with.

If you run proper watts per sq ft , canopy penetration sideways into a vertical setup`s absolutely no different from a horizontal grow.....now....

The reason 9-10 folks fail at increased returns compared to horizontal is that they don`t understand how or WHY to develop EACH wall as it`s own separate grow , JUST like 1 dimensional flat growers deal with underneath each reflector`s "light footprint"....and....

IF each wall can be covered equally width and depth wise by end of stretch either scrog-wise or with increased plant numbers , that`s where the increased yields come from......I mean...

The potential for vertical returns far exceeds the same for horizontal , but it takes beyond stoner mentality to achieve said results and learn from earlier shortcomings rather than going back to easy peasy flat grows with reflectors......that said.....

No one can swap from flat grows to vert and bust gpw`s just by doing away with the reflectors and hangin bare bulbs , it just don`t work that way , and all the bare bulb growers I know from yrs and yrs that have spent the time to dial environment and watts per sq ft along with sideways canopy management , will laugh at you about return on investment compared to a flat 1 dimensional table or bed under reflectors.....

Not that you can`t yield well with horizontal once dialed as well , cuz the new double ended bulbs out these days are slowly but surely pumpin out more and more 3 lbs per light harveys , but again it`s definitely strain related as well , and a learning curve on how to dial plant height away from the bulbs while still maintaining that penetration Scrappy speaks of without frying the tops with the mega watt fixtures......me ?.......

Bare bulbs rule and all else drool cuz it`s all I ever used and know , and I either surrounded big plants with lights , or smaller plants above and around bulbs with everything not green covered in reflectix ftw and never hadta look back but....bottom line....

Yield with both systems , flat or vertical is all subjective at best ....mainly due to grower skills , knowledge , and experience...I put vertical growing in the intermediate category of growing simply cuz it ain`t for newbs....at least in the yield dept....cheap ?....easy ?......definitely...but as a yield machine ...

Any and ALL top shelf CONSISTENT returns per any system depends on factors that`re only learned by doing over and over again till they`re second nature and as corny as it sounds , when you become 1 with the plants and know what they need simply by eye with an always "pro-active" instead of re-active attitude when shit happens you didn`t see comin , then shit falls in place and the plants all but grow themselves and yield accordingly......anyways....

Plenty of old head growers behind closed doors at private sites regularly do 1.5 gpw and above consistently cuz they do it for a living and they`re legal beagles in med-ville without too much worry on plant count with increased numbers on all 4 walls floor to ceiling , so lastly ......

To each their own , and no system`s gonna make em jump up and produce the weight without learning and runs under your belt....period.....

Peace....DHF.... :ying:

.....

helios212 · May 23, 2015

well , 1,56 gph with Chronic from Serious Seeds ,
After stumbling over Heath Robinson vertical guides I roamed the net and found an other DIY for a 1.20*1.20*2 meter tent. its designed for 40 cuttings which turn after 1 week of veg , into bloom

the system itself is pretty cheap and I think better results are possible for the more experienced grower

Fly by Night · May 23, 2015

On this site the words vertical and yield are intertwined forever. Guarantee and promise aren't included however. Hard workin and skilled growers prevail at coaxing the most from their methods! Peace fellas

Scrappy-doo · May 23, 2015

Yeah true I guess I probably just didn't dial vert in to it's potential. Lot of work and science to really get it dialed in on that level it seems. I'd still go back to it in a heartbeat if I had height or space limitations. For now I'm down with the cdm's. Still waiting for someone to come up with a way to run those vertically. That would be pretty interesting.

GuerrillaRed · May 23, 2015

This thread is awesome, this was the information I was hoping to elicit. I think I was being silly now that I've learned a lot more. I definitely think for my style of growing I need to stick with horizontal growing in the future.

It's funny you mention Heath Robinson as I was greatly inspired by him and switched because of his vert claims. Although my chum says those threads from Heath that inspired a lot of us vert growers were manipulated and not nearly as efficient or honest as Heath presented them. I don't know either way.

Heath Robinson and Magash (I always wonder what that dude is up to) were my two great inspirations.

helios212 · May 23, 2015

well , without heath the guy who created the DIY wouldnt have done it , easy as that... but heaths system is "too compicated" instead of inserting levels of water in your system , let your clones get some fency long roots before transplanting them into the vert system. and yeah , I belive heath reached the 2gpw easily.

mojave green · May 23, 2015

My yield is better than your yield! :laughing:

Bongstar420 · May 24, 2015

DunHav`nFun said:
If you run proper watts per sq ft , canopy penetration sideways into a vertical setup`s absolutely no different from a horizontal grow.....now....

The reason 9-10 folks fail at increased returns compared to horizontal is that they don`t understand how or WHY to develop EACH wall as it`s own separate grow , JUST like 1 dimensional flat growers deal with underneath each reflector`s "light footprint"....and....

IF each wall can be covered equally width and depth wise by end of stretch either scrog-wise or with increased plant numbers , that`s where the increased yields come from......I mean...

The potential for vertical returns far exceeds the same for horizontal , but it takes beyond stoner mentality to achieve said results and learn from earlier shortcomings rather than going back to easy peasy flat grows with reflectors......that said.....

No one can swap from flat grows to vert and bust gpw`s just by doing away with the reflectors and hangin bare bulbs , it just don`t work that way , and all the bare bulb growers I know from yrs and yrs that have spent the time to dial environment and watts per sq ft along with sideways canopy management , will laugh at you about return on investment compared to a flat 1 dimensional table or bed under reflectors.....

Not that you can`t yield well with horizontal once dialed as well , cuz the new double ended bulbs out these days are slowly but surely pumpin out more and more 3 lbs per light harveys , but again it`s definitely strain related as well , and a learning curve on how to dial plant height away from the bulbs while still maintaining that penetration Scrappy speaks of without frying the tops with the mega watt fixtures......me ?.......

Bare bulbs rule and all else drool cuz it`s all I ever used and know , and I either surrounded big plants with lights , or smaller plants above and around bulbs with everything not green covered in reflectix ftw and never hadta look back but....bottom line....

Yield with both systems , flat or vertical is all subjective at best ....mainly due to grower skills , knowledge , and experience...I put vertical growing in the intermediate category of growing simply cuz it ain`t for newbs....at least in the yield dept....cheap ?....easy ?......definitely...but as a yield machine ...

Any and ALL top shelf CONSISTENT returns per any system depends on factors that`re only learned by doing over and over again till they`re second nature and as corny as it sounds , when you become 1 with the plants and know what they need simply by eye with an always "pro-active" instead of re-active attitude when shit happens you didn`t see comin , then shit falls in place and the plants all but grow themselves and yield accordingly......anyways....

Plenty of old head growers behind closed doors at private sites regularly do 1.5 gpw and above consistently cuz they do it for a living and they`re legal beagles in med-ville without too much worry on plant count with increased numbers on all 4 walls floor to ceiling , so lastly ......

To each their own , and no system`s gonna make em jump up and produce the weight without learning and runs under your belt....period.....

Peace....DHF.........

You talkin +20% cannabinoids and premium tops only or what?
And what time frame we talkin?

.75gpw at 8 weeks is only 10% less than 1.25gpw at 12 weeks.

I'd doubt 1.5 gpw from legal folk or anyone big....

Let's not bullshit each other, what yields are vert growers achieving?

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