Organic PH questions guys and gals??? HELP!!!

Ok everyone, i have my plants growing in 5 gallon buckets, a few of them have shown signs of whats looks like a lack of Calcium due to low PH ( Pic is of 1 plant ) Locked up? I have since added Epsoma Garden lime " Fine Pelletized " ( 2 TBS each time sprinkled over the peat,over the last 2 waterings. I run tap water ( well water ) and use it for water ( PPM 120 ), Ph of the tap water is 7.3, after watering i check the Ph of the runoff, and my babies all come in around 5.8-6.0. What can i easily do to unlock the calcium and solve my Ph problem? I do have GH Ph up & Ph Down.

Thank you,

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688
check it out for answers, I don't pretend to know anything.
It's a pretty in depth ph, pest, chem, enviro problems... check it out.

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Thats burn or toxicity

If you want help you have to be much more specific as to your soil mix.
The best soource of lime is dolomite, is the Epsoma lime calcium carbonate?
Sprinkling the top of your soil with lime won't really help as it needs mixing throughout the soil and is more or less water soluble, it needs to mix in the soil and left to compost for at least a few days before using the planting mix.
List your soil mix and we can better help you.

Virgin, don't go as much on the runoff either. Drop your PH to around 6.2 flush, and see if that helps the problem.
I've had plants look like that before and I was over fertilizing.
What I like to do is remove all the damaged fan leaves, flush, and see how the new growth looks.

Suby said:

If you want help you have to be much more specific as to your soil mix.
The best source of lime is dolomite, is the Epsoma lime calcium carbonate?
Sprinkling the top of your soil with lime won't really help as it needs mixing throughout the soil and is more or less water soluble, it needs to mix in the soil and left to compost for at least a few days before using the planting mix.
List your soil mix and we can better help you.

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My soil mix is in my signature. As for the lime, I'm not sure i don't have it here, and their web site isn't helpful.

my Organic Soil looks like this
MY MIX: Amounts for 50 – 2gallon pots
3 parts peat 2.2cu.ft
3 parts perlite 50 Litre
2 parts coco 1 Brick
1 parts topsoil
1 part wormcasts, from Gaia 30Litre Bag
1 part Gaia FERTILIZING SOIL CONDITIONER 4-4-2 30Litre Bag
1 part potting soil 25Litre Bag
1 part vermiculite
1 part mushroom compost 20Litre Bag
14 Parts x 4L(ice cream bucket to ration parts) = 56Litres

To each 56 Litres I add:
280g Gaia 4-4-4 All Purpose 5g/litre = 280g’s @ 5 mixes = 1400g’s
225g Kelp meal 4g/L = 225g’s @ 5 mixes = 1125g’s
56g GROW,Gaia Seabird guano 1g/litre= 56g’s @ 5 mixes = 280g’s
225g FLOWER, Gaia High P guano 4g/L = 225g’s @ 5 mixes = 1125g’s
225g dolomite lime 4g/litre = 225g’s @ 5 mixes = 1125g’s
56g ?rock potash 1g/L (included in Gaia All Purpose) 280g’s 56g ?rock phosphate 1g/L (included in Gaia All Purpose) 280g’s
molasses at 1 teaspoon/gallon
Let mix sit in pots for over 10 days to set and release ammonia...
and some water crystals (As needed, mainly for outdoor grows)
*Note: Do not over water! Do not let your soil completely dry out! Maintain moist but not soggy soil for happy healthy plants.

Did you mix the soil and give it time to compost and get through it's heat phase before using it?

I'm having nearly the exact same problems in a very similar soil-mix. I've flushed once and am planning to flush again the next 2-3 waterings as I've pretty much decided that it seems to be over-feeding that is causing the problem (I've eliminated PH and CAL/MAG def. as possible culprits). It seems that using a combination of well balanced soil mix along with an organic liquid nutrient feeding schedule has built up too many nutrients in the soil and it's burning the plants.

Honestly, I've been pretty disappointed with the 'information' available on this kind of issue here in the Organic Soil sub-forum as it seems anyone who has PH or burn problems just gets told that it's impossible to do PH wrong or even over-nute in organics----which is simply a bold faced lie. While healthy organic soil will do well to buffer against PH and nutrient problems it is still possible to over do it (regardless of what some may argue).

Yeah you lying bastards!.........LOL come on now,you have to take the advice given here and couple that with your own common sense and experience.
If a guy has a properly built living organic soil why would he feel the need to add more food to the soil via some kind of liquid fert/nute schedule? Rarely do I have to reach for some fish hydrolysate or alfalfa meal in mid to late flower...the rest of the entire cycle I may only do 3 or 4 compost teas. If I have a troubled pot,I topdress with EWC or compost and the problem goes away. If some people think Compost teas are part of a nute/fert program they need to think again. If I remember correctly,compost teas are not for feeding plants but multiplying beneficial organisms that when added to the soil begin to breakdown what is already there. As for the OP's question...he used pelletized lime..that's a no no. The soil probably isn't a complete mix..or it's that bagged junk.
And once again this brings me to post these pix. Probably 6th round recycled organic living soil. Re-amended every cycle with minimal ferts/nutes. Mostly just more compost and EWC.
3 or 4 compost teas per cycle..(veg and flower) I don't ph anything..in fact I don't know where my ph meter is..haven't seen it in around 9 months. Rain water only........EDIT: I should also mention that "flushing" doesn't happen here either. This smoke is smooth as silk and cures to solid and sweet long burning mind expanding bowls.

WhateverComes said:

It seems that using a combination of well balanced soil mix along with an organic liquid nutrient feeding schedule has built up too many nutrients in the soil and it's burning the plants.

Honestly, I've been pretty disappointed with the 'information' available on this kind of issue here in the Organic Soil sub-forum as it seems anyone who has PH or burn problems just gets told that it's impossible to do PH wrong or even over-nute in organics----which is simply a bold faced lie. While healthy organic soil will do well to buffer against PH and nutrient problems it is still possible to over do it (regardless of what some may argue).

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You tell it like it is. The problem is trying to force the Nth out of your plants with the liquid ferts. Lime wont help at all if anything your soil is too basic. Plain water. A tea might heat it up even worse at this point.

Cheeze also tells it like it is. Compost teas are the business end of getting the best from your plants via the soil and the "well amended mix". You cannot be calling it a healthy soil if you've overdone it. Near everyone who learns organics kills their plants with kindness. Less is best, if you really have been reading these forums you've heard it a hundred times, but now you may be ready to listen.

Plants live in two houses, above and below ground. We dictate both of these environments to an extent. Above ground we try to get the temps mild but pleasant, humidity in range, air flow, light spectrum... But below ground we pay no attention to the fact it is a home for the other half of the plant; plus fungi, bacteria, archaea and more. No, we treat it as a nutrient dump with the advice from some blurb on the next piece of shit product. You want to learn about how to treat soil get advice from a microbiologist like MM because soil is a microhabitat. Fert salespeople haven't got a fucking clue but it's in their interests to pretend they're experts.

MrFista said:

Fert salespeople haven't got a fucking clue but it's in their interests to pretend they're experts.

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I don't know about that per se. Not too long ago I watched a video from FatBoy Mike at Advanced Nutrients on the subject of silica (Si) and according to his highly recognized team of experts at the AN labs in Dog Turd, Kentucky he has a 'secret source' for this 'special' form of silica used in his magical (if not mystical) elixirs.

With science like this it's a mystery that rain forests came to exist, eh? Not to mention the Great Plains that greeted the first European settlers in the 19th Century.

Shucks and such, eh?

CC

Capt.Cheeze1 said:

As for the OP's question...he used pelletized lime..that's a no no.

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I've seen plants that looked like that one time. Guess what was in the mix....pelletized lime and poor quality compost.

You cannot be calling it a healthy soil if you've overdone it. Near everyone who learns organics kills their plants with kindness. Less is best, if you really have been reading these forums you've heard it a hundred times, but now you may be ready to listen.

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I think you hit the nail on the head. I started out with good amended soil, and had great healthy plants. Then I started to add many of those great things you read about here and elsewhere, and before I knew it my plants were suffering. I'm getting 7+ph on run off after using water ph'd to 5.5. Also a problem I've read others are having as well.

While it may be late to turn around my current grow, I am going back to basics with my soil, and will not recycle my soil until I have a better understanding of just how to do it. It's taking me a grow with a 1/2 harvest, and possibly another similar grow to learn that anything you add must be in balance and fit in with the rest of our mini ecosystem.....scrappy

redneck shogun said:

I've seen plants that looked like that one time. Guess what was in the mix....pelletized lime and poor quality compost.

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Must have had a more complete mix....
Problem with pelletized lime in container pots growing cannabis is that we are replicating a natural cycle and pushing it to the edge when we mix these things up and throw a plant in it and expect it to do what we want. The dolomite lime works only when wet,and in a powdered form is much more effective in a global organic soil mix than pellets. Not that pellets won't work,but it's not as effective as powdered dolomite.
Poor quality compost is still compost.....any little bit helps. I just go for the higher quality stuff.

What is the RH and temp in your room? I have to admit I haven't (yet) read all the responses in this thread, but if you still think it's Ca deficiency then the RH and temp is an important factor because Ca and Bo are not taken into roots like other ions. They require being 'sucked' into roots along with water and that is controlled by rate of transpiration...and rate of transpiration is most affected by RH and temp (i.e. stomatal conductance).

If you have low RH (and high temp) you are worse off than if you just have low RH and cool temps in terms of reduction in rate of transpiration (i.e. reduced stomatal conductance). If that is the case and you can't change the RH or temp you should consider using ProTeKt (potassium silicate). The Si assists the plant in taking up and using Ca in environs of low RH and low transpiration.

Your media pH (soil solution + rhizosphere) shouldn't be making soluble Ca into insoluble Ca (i.e. locking it out) unless the pH if very high, i.e., over 8. Soluble Ca ions become less soluble once pH exceeds about 7. That said, pH could be causing other issues if it's very out of whack (i.e. < 5.5 or > 8) and it could make your leafs look like that.

You should test media pH to see what is going on. To test media pH you do not simply test run-off when watering, that isn't the correct media pH. Here is how to test media pH using the "Pour Through" method (aka "Pour Thru"): http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/floriculture/crop/crop_PTS.htm

Water pH has *very* little affect upon media pH unless water pH is very low or very high (e.g. < 4.5 and > 11); or unless the water alkalinity is high (i.e. > 80-100 ppm). The water pH takes on the pH of the media once in the media, not the other way around (unless water pH is very low or high or high alkalinity). That means flushing with pH'd water (ex. 6) won't help your media if the media pH is out of whack. You need to use other methods to affect media pH if it's out of whack, such as using bicarbonates to raise pH or using aluminum sulfate to lower pH (if there is not a lot of free lime in media).

(2)- 3.8cf of Sphagnum peat moss
(2)- 40 bags of humus
(2)- 40 bags of mushroom compost
(2)-40 bags of top soil
(8)- cups Bone Meal - phosphorus source
(4)- cups Blood Meal - nitrogen source
(1 1/2) cups- Epsom salts - magnesium source
(3-4) cups- dolomite lime -calcium source & pH buffering
(1) 8Qt bag of vermiculite
(2) 8Qt bags of Perlite

...

What am I missing?

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When you write "40 bags" do you mean "40 pound bags"? What is the "humus" product?


1. Aeration, IMO. You have too much dense organic matter in your media. Drop the mushroom compost next time, it's not needed and isn't helpful if you are already using good compost. Mushroom compost is about the last thing I would add to media because it's hard to source good mushroom compost. Also, drop the top soil and the humus. I would suggest using good compost and good vermicompost, or just use good vermicompost next time (both have humus). I also suggset adding humic acid or micronized humic matter to increase the humus fraction of media. Using 6 parts peat, 1 part compost, 1 part vermicompost and 2 parts perlite would be a much better mix (or use 6 parts peat, 1 part vermicompost and 3 parts perlite).

2. Too much N. Drop the blood meal for your next media mix. In organics the N comes from microbes (i.e. microbial loop) and from mineralization by microbes (ex. breaking down blood meal). It's best to add too little blood meal than too much. FWIW, there are much better N sources than blood meal; seed meals are a great choice as is vermicompost.

3. You are also missing a Ca input. The dolomitic lime has little Ca and more Mg. For a lime source it's best to mix 50/50 dolomitic lime and agricultural lime (i.e. calcitic lime, or use pure calcium carbonate). The reason is dolomitic lime raises and buffers pH faster than calcitic lime and the calcitic lime adds Ca.

4. And the amount of lime you added is too low IMO. It's very hard to over apply dolomitic lime, even in high Co2 media the pH won't go above ~8-8.5 no matter how much lime you add...

I suggest you test your media pH with the Pour Through method (preferably using distilled water), and test the RH and temp at canopy (under shade) then post what the results and you can get more help from ICers.

P.S. I would also suggest adding some (light) gypsum next time for Ca and S. Adding some Azomite is also a good idea.

P.P.S. When you make your next media, try to use parts by volume, not weight and volume. For orngic matter like compost, peat, etc., use parts by volume. Ideally when adding mineral powders like lime, Azmoite, etc., apply them by weight to dry weight of media. To do that you need to find the moisture content of your media ingredients (such as compost, vermicompost, etc.) then find multiply the weight of the ingredient by the % of moisture content to find the dry weight of media and use that to calculate how much minerals to add. Or you can add minerals by volume (ex. 10% lime) to volume of media, but using dry weight of minerals is better. Here is how you find the moisture content of your media and/or amendments:

(you can use a oven set to 105-110'C for 24 hours, or use a microwave for 10-20 mins (with a glass 1/2 full of water in the microwave) but using an oven is the simpler method)
http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/moisture_content.html


Good luck

EDIT:

1. I wrote dolomitic lime has less Ca than Mg, but that's not correct. D.lime is usually around 25% Ca and 10% Mg, but much of the Ca is not immediately available to plants. That is why adding calcitic lime or gypsum is good for source of Ca morose than d.lime.

2. Your mix seems to lack a good source of K. You could use kelp meal or sulfate of potash for K. You could also use alfalfa meal as a source of K and N. Plants need much more K than P...

I do the 3 part lime thing with powdered dolomite,gypsum and powdered oyster shell. Not to mention there are other things in my mix that provide calcium like crab shell meal,EWC,egg shells. Also have the sul-po-mag,azomite,and pyrophyllite clay working in there too.
I should also say that I have grown a couple plants lately in just straight compost alone that did fine...nothing else added (no dolomite,teas,nothing) through the entire cycle.

CC1,

FWIW, gypsum isn't lime and doesn't buffer or increase pH, it will howeverr lower pH esp. in sodic soil/media. Oyster shell flower is a source of calicum carbonate but it's not nearly as good at increasing and buffering pH as pure calicum carbonate or calcitic lime.

Plants can grow just fine in pure compost, but IME/IMO they grow a lot better in proper media with amendments.

3. You are also missing a Ca input. The dolomitic lime has little Ca and more Mg. For a lime source it's best to mix 50/50 dolomitic lime and agricultural lime (i.e. calcitic lime, or use pure calcium carbonate). The reason is dolomitic lime raises and buffers pH faster than calcitic lime and the calcitic lime adds Ca.

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I checked my lime bag, it is 34% cal and 4% mag, but I also add epsom salt for mag. Is this a good solution? scrappy