The Origin Of Cannabis

ngakpa · Jun 24, 2019

Water- said:
This is not about cannabis but it shows how a low genetic diversity can be retained for thousands of years.

"It has long been suspected that some grape varieties grown today, particularly well-known types like Pinot Noir, have an exact genetic match with plants grown 2,000 years ago or more, but until now there has been no way of genetically testing an uninterrupted genetic lineage of that age.

Dr. Nathan Wales, from the University of York, said: "From our sample of grape seeds we found 18 distinct genetic signatures, including one set of genetically identical seeds from two Roman sites separated by more than 600km, and dating back 2,000 years ago."

One archaeological grape seed excavated from a medieval site in Orléans in central France was genetically identical to Savagnin Blanc.

This means the variety has grown for at least 900 years as cuttings from just one ancestral plant.

https://phys.org/news/2019-06-ancient-dna-roman-medieval-grape.html

cf. Phylloxera, which wiped out the French vineyards in the 1850s, got most of the way around Europe and as far as Chile

it even reappeared in the 1980s

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...st-wiped-out-frances-wine-industry-180954619/

therevverend · Jun 25, 2019

ngakpa man I don't know why you want to start this stupid shit again, you'd think you'd learn from last time. But here we go again..

it's a brazier with hot coals, as described in Herodotus, in an area that was inhabited by Scythians for more than a thousand years - from the late second and early 1st millenium BCE until the early centurues CE and the Saka-Kushan era (Sakas = Scythians)

Yes everybody knows how a sweat lodge works.. BORING!

the 'Taoist' texts that mention these practices were in fact from Gandhara, Parthia, and NW India, and should more accurately be called Buddhist... they're texts attributed to Jivaka, who's traditionally regarded as the physician of the Buddha... point being, they're Indic literature and describe practises that originate in Central Asia

Xinjiang, in NW China was the eastern end of the Scythian realm, ie the Sakas. Shache was a Scythian city, aka Yarkand, and is nearby the find... Ukraine was the Western end of the Scythian realm

No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the Materia Medica and Chinese divining. With bones and such. Nothing to do with Central Asia.

Not talking about the Scythians either.

in fact, it's the finds from central China that show predominantly or only CBD... residues from the finds in Scythian areas like Xinjiang and Stavropol indicate THC

No that's not what the paper says and the only place with hemp plants bred for high THC is in the Takim Basin. No Scythians there although they may have traded.

if you go to Chitral, which is relatively speaking not far from the find, farmers prefer to harvest in early November

If you had read the paper you would know that this find was not in the Chitral Valley. It was high in the mountains in China. The cannabis plants were Kafiristanica which is an autoflowering strain that certainly doesn't finish in November. Unless you plant it in July. Please read the paper first before trying to correct me.

Carpets have been used to collect resin for a long time in Afghanistan. We've all heard the stories of dancing on cannabis rolled in carpets to extract the resin. This is not 'sieving through carpets' but it's easy to see how the technology could be a big hint towards sieving.

Ngapka, I don't have the patience or time for your trolling. If you want to comment on 'not enough Scythians' in the paper, reference the paper not the bullshit I'm writing about it. Easier if you write your own bullshit instead of trying to criticize my bullshit.

Moving on to what was actually on my mind this morning, I would say rather then this showing 'origins of smoking' a better title would be 'origins of vaping'...

therevverend · Jun 25, 2019

broad-leafleted plants haven't been documented in Xinjiang

That's odd because I've seen pictures of broad leaf and thin leaf growing in Xinjiang. Considering it shares a common border with Afghanistan and the author mentions wide leaf plants growing in the area the tomb was discovered in, which is in Xinjiang, I'm thinking you're wrong.

Emperortaima · Jun 25, 2019

CannaRed said:
The only problem I see with that is, diffrent spectrums of light will cause differences in internodal space.
I have heard that some spectrums will cause changes in leaf morphology, but not sure.

I can attest to that.. when i first started trying to grow i remember trying to use a household incandescent it did not do what i was hoping and never again lol

xxPeacePipexx · Jun 25, 2019

I'm often disappointed by online satire in regards to the historical aspects of Cannabis use and I have thoroughly enjoyed the links and information relevant that therevverend has shared. I do though really enjoy the mythology and cultural beliefs in India and elsewhere where Cannabis is still revered even in the developing world..

therevverend · Jun 26, 2019

you can't sieve through a carpet anywhere... sieving is done through taught cotton or silk

Quoted from the book 'Hashish' by Robert Connell Clarke.

'Carpet collection' is a second method that uses differences in particle size to manufacture hashish. There are many accounts from the 1960s of sieved hashish made by threshing dried Cannabis over carpets. This technique was likely an outgrowth of flailing cannabis plants to recover seeds.

On a cold clear day the dried flowered branches were placed in a knotted pile carpert and threshed to dislodge the resin glands. After all the plant matter was broken up, the debris was pushed back and forth lightly and the resin fell into the pile of the carpet. (A tightly knotted Central Asian silk or wool carpet with a medium-length, stiff pile worked well.) The powder collected in the carpet pile in the same way that fine sand collects in a doormat. After a short period of rubbing, the debris was brushed away and the seeds removed.

The resin powder was then removed by inverting the carpet and beating. While the resin powder may have been quite crude, it would hav contained many mature resin glands that would have been used for their euphoric properties. Carpet collection would be most effective in the cold, dry climate of the Central Asian winter and would not work in hot humid weather.

And more silliness.

it's not that humid in harvest season in the Himalaya

The problem with making these sort of generalizations, anyone can look up the weather and the Himalayas are a huge region. In Kathmandu in Nepal during harvest season, November, the humidity is around 100% every morning. In Pithorgarh, India in Kuamoni in the Himalayas, in November during the harvest season. The relative humidity is 90%-100% every day. It varies quite a bit over the course of the day of course, around 2:30 in the afternoon it dips to 44% but you'd never try to dry sift hashish when it's 90 degrees F. (30 degrees C)As a hash maker I know you need cool dry conditions otherwise the hashish clogs up the screen. You sift in the cool morning and that don't work if the humidity is 100%.

To make fine sifted hashish you need cool dry conditions, almost freezing which is one of the reasons why the best hashish in the eastern Himalayas is always hand rubbed and in the western Himalayas it's always sifted. And why Afghan and Pakistani hash makers wait for the cool winter months. Of course no matter how hot or humid it is you can cram resin through sieves but it's not going to be very pure.

And please, actually doing the research to look this stuff up gobbles up lots of my time. I don't want to waste it correcting other peoples' errors, especially when they're wasting their time criticizing my posts. Do your own research looking up my claims before you make your own spurious ones.

ngakpa · Jun 26, 2019

therevverend said:
No, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the Materia Medica and Chinese divining. With bones and such. Nothing to do with Central Asia.

here's what you said:

"ancient China where Taoist shaman mediums would use cannabis to predict the future and talk to spirits of dead people"

cf.:

The Mingyi bielu 名醫別錄 ("Supplementary Records of Famous Physicians"), written by the Taoist pharmacologist Tao Hongjing (456-536), who also wrote the first commentaries to the Shangqing canon, says, "Hemp-seeds (麻勃) are very little used in medicine, but the magician-technicians (shujia 術家) say that if one consumes them with ginseng it will give one preternatural knowledge of events in the future."[50][51] A 6th-century AD Taoist medical work, the Wuzangjing 五臟經 ("Five Viscera Classic") says, "If you wish to command demonic apparitions to present themselves you should constantly eat the inflorescences of the hemp plant."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_and_religion#Taoism

the references are well known and appear throughout works on cannabis

but what's not appreciated is that these texts such as the Wuzangjing are Buddhist, and specifically from Central and southern Central Asia, eg. Gandhara

therevverend said:
No that's not what the paper says and the only place with hemp plants bred for high THC is in the Takim Basin. No Scythians there although they may have traded.

it's the Tarim Basin, and there was Scythian (Saka, plus Wusun) presence in and around the region for over a millennium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_Basin

Another people in the region besides Tocharian are the Indo-Iranian Saka people who spoke various Eastern Iranian Khotanese Scythian or Saka dialects. In the Achaemenid-era Old Persian inscriptions found at Persepolis, dated to the reign of Darius I (r. 522-486 BC), the Saka are said to have lived just beyond the borders of Sogdiana.[13] Likewise an inscription dated to the reign of Xerxes I (r. 486-465 BC) has them coupled with the Dahae people of Central Asia.[13] The contemporary Greek historian Herodotus noted that the Achaemenid Persians called all of the Indo-Iranian Scythian peoples as the Saka.[13] They were known as the Sai (塞, sāi, sək in archaic Chinese) in ancient Chinese records.[14] These records indicate that they originally inhabited Ili and Chu River valleys of modern Kazakhstan. In the Chinese Book of Han, the area was called the "land of the Sai", i.e. the Saka.[15] Presence of a people believed to be Saka has also been found in various location in the Tarim Basin, for example in the Keriya region at Yumulak Kum (Djoumboulak Koum, Yuansha) around 200 km east of Khotan, with a tomb dated to as early as the 7th century BC.[16][17]

According to the Sima Qian's Shiji, the nomadic Indo-European Yuezhi originally lived between Tengri Tagh (Tian Shan) and Dunhuang of Gansu, China.[18] However, the Yuezhi were assaulted and forced to flee from the Hexi Corridor of Gansu by the forces of the Xiongnu ruler Modu Chanyu, who conquered the area in 177-176 BC (decades before the Han Chinese conquest and colonization of Gansu or the establishment of the Protectorate of the Western Regions).[19][20][21][22] In turn the Yuezhi were responsible for attacking and pushing the Sai (i.e. Saka) west into Sogdiana, where in the mid 2nd century BC the latter crossed the Syr Darya into Bactria, but also into the Fergana Valley where they settled in Dayuan, southwards towards northern India, and eastward as well where they settled in some of the oasis city-states of the Tarim Basin.[23] Whereas the Yuezhi continued westward and conquered Daxia around 177-176 BC, the Sai (i.e. Saka), including some allied Tocharian peoples, fled south to the Pamirs before heading back east to settle in Tarim Basin sites like Yanqi (焉耆, Karasahr) and Qiuci (龜茲, Kucha).[24] The Saka are recorded as inhabiting Khotan by at least the 3rd century and also settled in nearby Shache (莎車), a town named after the Saka inhabitants (i.e. saγlâ).[25].

Shache is Yarkand...

therevverend said:
If you had read the paper you would know that this find was not in the Chitral Valley. It was high in the mountains in China.

have a look at a map.... you could start by finding Yarkand, then the site of this find

all that seperates Xinjiang from Chitral is a very thin piece of the Wakhan Corridor of Afghanistan

there's a reason charas from Shache (Yarkand) was exported to India through Chitral...

also, about your comments about the Indian and Nepali Himalaya: first-class sieved charas is made anywhere from Nepal to Kashmir

ngakpa · Jun 26, 2019

therevverend said:
That's odd because I've seen pictures of broad leaf and thin leaf growing in Xinjiang. Considering it shares a common border with Afghanistan and the author mentions wide leaf plants growing in the area the tomb was discovered in, which is in Xinjiang, I'm thinking you're wrong.

I would be really interested to see broad-leaflet plants from Xinjiang

do you have photos or links?

therevverend · Jun 27, 2019

I'm done with you Ngpka, not answering or reading your posts, you're the only person on here I've had to put on ignore. If you want to have pissing matches have them with yourself and please don't reply or comment on my posts. You're a headcase and a troll.

therevverend · Jun 27, 2019

This thread is called 'The Origins of Cannabis', we're going off topic here a bit. This post and a few of the previous ones should be in a thread titled 'the origins of drug cannabis, marijuana and the ways people ingest it'.

Instead of writing it all up myself I'm going to mine quotes from the article Ramse linked to. About the tomb discovered in the Pamir Mountains in China. Then I can write or respond to what the authors said. Since as I've been writing I realize I'm repeating what was in the paper.

Archaeologists had made claims of ritual cannabis burning in Central Asian sites as far back as 5000 years ago. But new analyses of those plant remains by other teams suggest that early cannabis strains had low levels of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the plant's most powerful psychoactive component, and so lacked mind-altering properties. One academic who works in Central Asia said he and colleagues tried to smoke and eat wild varieties—but got no buzz.

This is about the origins of people getting high as opposed to using cannabis ritualistically or for hemp. The stuff the Scythians and other nomadic steppe people were using was hemp not drug cannabis. And they were burning seeds not hashish.

Likely due in large part to the single reference in The Histories, historians and archaeologists have linked Central Asian people of the first millennium BCE to cannabis. Several scholars have suggested that the crop spread with the mythical “Scythian” warrior nomads (3, 29). The Central Asian origins of cannabis is an argument recently revived and pushed back in time to the poorly defined “Yamnaya” culture group (8, 14). However, it is highly unlikely that the cannabis plants on the steppe before the first millennium BCE were cultivated, and no evidence for wild populations with high THC levels exists for the steppe.

recovery from the kurgan of a leather pouch, which contained cannabis seeds, coriander (Coriandrum sativum), and yellow sweet clover (Melilotus officinalis) (15). Other finds of seeds in vessels from burials in Eastern Europe and Central Asia have been called hemp or cannabis, but without further verification, they have limited credibility (2). Furthermore, according to The Histories, ancient Scythians used the cannabis smoke as a kind of cleaning rite (similar to bathing) after the burial; however, the smoking revealed both in the Pamirs in the present study and in the Altai Mountains was obviously performed during the burial and may represent a different kind of ritual, perhaps, for example, aimed at communicating with the divine or the deceased.

The steppe people were burning seed mixes, smouldering seeds in their barbecues for smoke baths. If you've ever thrown dry cannabis flowers in a fire they flare up and burn quickly. Seeds suffocate the fire and produce lots of fragrant smoke, perfect for a smoke bath and you'd smell nice afterwards. Great for removing the stench of corpses and sorrow at a funeral.

As contrasted with the people of the Tamir Basin who were getting high. I've discussed those discoveries in a different thread. Here's a mention of them in the article.

While most of the claims of archaeological cannabis in Central Asia are spurious, as mentioned above (7, 28), new discoveries of ritual cannabis use in western China are well documented and scientifically studied. The recent discovery of a cannabis burial shroud, comprising 13 desiccated plants, from the Jiayi Cemetery (ca. 800–400 BCE) in Turpan provides evidence for the ritualistic use of cannabis in prehistoric western China (9). In addition, dried stems, fruits, and branches were preserved in burials in the Yanghai tombs (ca. 500 BCE) (10, 32), where a leather basket and a wooden bowl filled with cannabis seeds, leaves, and shoots was found near the head and feet of the deceased, who may have been a high-ranking male shaman (10). The wooden bowl shows characteristics of prolonged use as a mortar, indicating that cannabis was pulverized before consumption; however, there is nothing in the tomb to indicate that it was burned or smoked, and the psychoactive plant might have been orally consumed. The botanical and chemical analyses further suggest that the ancient cannabis from the Yanghai tomb had elevated levels of secondary compounds (20), corroborating the present study’s findings. The lack of evidence for cultivation of hemp plants in this region leaves open the possibility that there were wild varieties with naturally higher phytochemical levels or that the domestication process did not follow conventional models.

Questions, questions. How did they grow or find high THC cannabis at that latitude if they weren't selecting for it? Only low THC ruderalis grows naturally up there. Why do these authors sure they weren't selecting for it.

The people who were getting high in this discovery in the Pamir Mountains were Sogdians. A bit of biographical information.

The burning of cannabis inside the braziers suggests that fire was an important part of the funerary rites at the Jirzankal Cemetery, as it has been in Central Asia from at least the late third millennium BCE, when human cremations are recorded from Kazakhstan (33, 34) and Xinjiang (35, 36). The ritual use of fire during funerals continued in Xinjiang and eastern Central Asia with the Zoroastrian practices of the Sogdians, and many Sogdian tombs in western China have evidence of burning (37). Some scholars have suggested that cannabis formed part of Zoroastrian religious and mortuary practices during the first millennium CE (38–40), possibly illustrating a long-term continuity in certain cultural practices. In the volume entitled Vendidad of the Zend-Avesta, Bangha (Bhang of Zoroaster), cannabis is referred to as a “good narcotic”

The Sogdians were around for a long time, I've been reading a Chinese story that involves the Sogidans during the Sui Dynasty, a thousand years later. Now we finally get to the good stuff.

The cannabinoids detected on the wooden braziers are mainly CBN, indicating that the burned cannabis plants expressed higher THC levels than typically found in wild plants. A pattern of relatively equivalent amounts of THC and CBD would be expected for wild cannabis plants (20, 22), but evident peaks corresponding to cannabinoids of CBD and its degradation products (such as cannabielsoin) were not detected in the burning residues. Given that the Jirzankal samples contained higher intensity of CBN than the ancient reference sample, there is no reason to expect that we would not see peaks corresponding to CBD if it had been present in the braziers. These results suggest that the cannabis burned by those using the Jirzankal Cemetery might have been physiologically altered through hybridization (domestication) or a poorly understood expression of genetic plasticity in the plants.

Wow I was expecting decent amounts of CBD along with the THC. This makes me think it's mostly THC which is straight up drug cannabis like what we got today!

Extensive phylogenetic research into the clade has illustrated that a wild/feral ruderal varietal population of the indica subspecies (var kafiristanica) expresses higher chemical levels (6). The kafiristanica clade is today restricted to mountainous areas around Afghanistan; however, scholars have debated whether it is truly a wild population with higher THC levels or a feral or hybrid population (5). Likewise, stress tests illustrate that some plants express a plastic response of higher THC levels when presented with certain stimuli. Lower temperatures, low nutrient availability, strong light intensity, exposure to ultraviolet light, and photoperiod changes have all been suggested as factors that trigger plastic stress responses in this clade (6). All of these stressors are associated with high elevations. It is possible that high-elevation populations of a naturally higher THC–producing variety were recognized and targeted by people in the Pamir region, possibly even explaining the prominence of ritual sites in the high mountains. Moreover, the content of THC also varies across plant parts, decreasing from the bract, flower, leave, stem, root, and seed in turn

Kafiristanica is the likely ancestor of modern Indica Afghanica and maybe all drug cannabis. I've seen pictures, it looks like a hashplant but scrawnier and much less bushy.

Man, these take a long time to write. We'll call this part one part 2 will be forthcoming.

therevverend · Jun 27, 2019

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here ye go smart ass.

https://weedforum.eu/wietforum/uploads/gallery/album_13/gallery_791_13_44482.jpg

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therevverend · Jun 27, 2019

More on carpet collection hashish making from Hashish:

Old-style carpet collection, one of the earliest methods of sieved hashish making, was widely practiced in Afghanistan as late as 1969. During carpet collection, a large clean, knotted carpet, with a fairly long pile, was spread on the floor of the central room in a family's home. Very dry flowers were stacked atop the carpet in a large heap and covered with a second carpet. Sometimes te bottom carpet was rolled up and folded over with the flowers inside. All the members of the family, young and old, took off the shoes and danced back and forth across the carpet, crushing the brittle flowers. The larger sticks were removed throughout the 10 to 15 minutes until the dancing ceased. The plant debris was swept away, the carpet turned upside down over finely woven cloth and beaten, freeing the resin trapped in the carpet pile. The rough resin was collected and then sieved through muslin cloth.

Afghanistan wasn't the only region where carpet collection was practiced. In Baluchistan:

The female bhang plants are reaped when they are waist high and charged with seed. The leaves and seeds are separated and half dried. They are then spread on a carpet of goat hair, another carpet is spread over them and rubbed. The dust containing the narcotic principle falls off, and the leaves, etc. are removed to another carpet and rubbed again. The first dust is the best quality, second inferior quality, and the last is crap. Each kind of dust is made into small balls and kept in cloth bags. The first quality is recognized by the ease with which it melts.

That they were making full melt carpet hash shows you can make some very nice stuff with this method.

Traditional knotted carpets, cold and arid conditions, and dry cannabis flowers would be a common confluence presented many times before silk fabric was traded into Central Asia from China. The silk allowed re-seiveing a long time practice of Afghan hashish makers. The use of knotted carpets to collect resin indictates that sieving could predate the introduction of pipes and tobacco and silk, and indeed may be an ancient practice.

And here we have why I've been making such a big deal out of carpet collection. The stuff the Sogdians were burning was seedless. Was it hashish? And if it was, was it hand collected or sieved? These people didn't use cotton. A small amount of silk was found at the grave, which is surprising because the silk trade didn't really start up until 300 BC. The silk must have been very rare and valuable, much too valuable and small an amount to waste sieving cannabis. They would have plenty of goat hair to weave and if they were making sifted hashish it would be through the goat hair. Of course at this point we have no idea how old sieving is, as Hashish hints at it could be relatively recent in history. After the introduction of smoking in the 16th century as opposed to hot boxing, knife hitting, whatever you want to call burning hashish like incense.

At the same time in Nepal, around 2500 years ago, Siddhartha was doing his thing, becoming an enlightened Buddha. He subsisted on one hemp seed a day which alerts us to the idea that the Nepalese were hand collecting cannabis resin at this time. The same as they've always done. As opposed to the autoflower cannabis plants growing high in the Himalayas the ones growing in the lowlands of Nepal and India would have naturally been high in THC. Why have we found no evidence people were getting high on these plants? Nobody has looked. As soon as they looked for cannabis at the famous Indus archeological sites 2500 BC they found it. And those people made their fiber from other plants.

Roms · Jun 28, 2019

K+ Therevverend.

Btw your picture above is from Yunnan i think.

Well i wonder if the origin of cannabis is really in Asia?

Ok the origin and natural transformation sativa to indica due to UV altitude is there, probably in the Hindu Kush before China and by the Indus. But long before when the cannabis was only sativa, was it only in Asia/Europe really?

When you think about the 2000 year old pollen found in Madagascar for example you can realize others perspectives. When you think about the Khoisan people in South Africa and the clear old Asian connection and their cultural canna etc. The cannabis culture is really older than the scientific imagine i think, as for the human civilizations and developement parallel subject.

Perso that makes me dream about Mu and Gondwana...

Peace

ngakpa · Jun 29, 2019

therevverend said:
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https://weedforum.eu/wietforum/uploads/gallery/album_13/gallery_791_13_44482.jpg

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not going to bother responding to the weirdness, projection, and other aggro

but for the benefit of anyone reading who's look for reliable info:

to the best of my knowledge that photo is from Yunnan and shows Chinese hemp, which can have large leaves with broad-leaflets

I'm not aware of any reports or photos of broad-leafleted landraces native to or found in Xinjiang

fwiw, re. the poplars in the background, those are found in Yunnan

Water- · Jun 29, 2019

I dont care where the pic was taken.

but poplar trees grow all around the world.

there is a row that looks just like that down the street from me.

---

Roms,

I was reading an article last night that I will try and find again and post here.

It was about the steppe environment that existed during the early neolithic, in what is now the sahara in Africa. It made it looked like plants could spread from there through Eurasia.

Another interesting thing is how Indo european pastoralists from the eurasian steppe reached west Africa thousands of years ago leaving behind clear evidence in the gene pool and culture.

peace

therevverend · Jun 29, 2019

Btw your picture above is from Yunnan i think.

I'm pretty sure it was NE China but without the original article that came with the pictures it's hard to know for sure my memory could be off. Every type of cannabis grows in just about every state of China, not surprising considering China has the highest amount of genetic diversity. The cottonwood looking trees and autumn colors look temperate, like northern China. I can't remember if it was High Times or what. I was hoping someone would recognize it, there's another picture showing the field, wagon, and row of trees.

When you think about the 2000 year old pollen found in Madagascar for example you can realize others perspectives

Madagascar was settled by Indonesians as opposed to Africans, that's a long boat ride to travel with ganja seeds. So much of the history of cannabis is shrouded in mystery, it's incredible we know as much as we do.

Ok the origin and natural transformation sativa to indica due to UV altitude is there, probably in the Hindu Kush before China and by the Indus.

Yeah that's the last bit of the article I wanted to get into, whether it was wild plants naturally high in THC because of the UV and high elevation or human selection. A tidbit from the article:

These results suggest that the cannabis burned by those using the Jirzankal Cemetery might have been physiologically altered through hybridization (domestication) or a poorly understood expression of genetic plasticity in the plants. Extensive phylogenetic research into the clade has illustrated that a wild/feral ruderal varietal population of the indica subspecies (var kafiristanica) expresses higher chemical levels (6). The kafiristanica clade is today restricted to mountainous areas around Afghanistan; however, scholars have debated whether it is truly a wild population with higher THC levels or a feral or hybrid population (5). Likewise, stress tests illustrate that some plants express a plastic response of higher THC levels when presented with certain stimuli. Lower temperatures, low nutrient availability, strong light intensity, exposure to ultraviolet light, and photoperiod changes have all been suggested as factors that trigger plastic stress responses in this clade (6). All of these stressors are associated with high elevations. It is possible that high-elevation populations of a naturally higher THC–producing variety were recognized and targeted by people in the Pamir region, possibly even explaining the prominence of ritual sites in the high mountains. Moreover, the content of THC also varies across plant parts, decreasing from the bract, flower, leave, stem, root, and seed in turn (10, 23). The lack of seeds in the burners may suggest that nonfloral plant parts were burned, or it may suggest that seeds were removed from the floral structures because they do not contain the desired secondary compounds.

Interesting stuff but pure speculation. They suspect but aren't sure if the high elevation naturally selects for more potent plants. The elevation is 3000 meters, very high indeed I'm guessing much of the year it's too cold for cannabis to grow. Down in the valley at Kashgar, 1270 meters, there's freezing temperatures by the end of October. This is why Kafiristanica has to autoflower, season is too short otherwise. I've never heard of a ruderalis type that's high in THC if I was an Autoflower breeder I'd pay attention.

Water- · Jun 29, 2019

My gut tells me that it was from natural selection.
Humans of one kind or another having being living in central asia for hundreds of thousands of years and they all used every plant and animal they could to survive.
thats a lot of time for selection.

The Austronesian sea voyagers actually did carry seeds and plants incredibly long distances across the Pacific, so it may not be imposible for them to carry cannabis across the Indian ocean.

-

"In 2009, archaeological excavations at Christmas River (south-central Madagascar) by Drs Pat Wright and James Hansford located a purported elephant bird kill site, with bones showing human cut marks. These were dated to 8,500 BC, but as yet there is no indication as to the identity of the hunters."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Madagascar

Roms · Jun 29, 2019

Water-,

Many climatic changements in the age it is so right and cyclic! That makes me think about the last glacial vegetation map worked by Thule with the most old cannabis evidence, vibes bro...

...Tropical grassland in green with South East Africa and America, India, Indonesia...

Thule said:
View Image

Dug up this map about vegetation zones during the last glacial maximum in order to track down the urheimat of cannabis.

Most of the East European and Siberian steppes where cannabis thrives today were desert back then but there were vast savannahs between Turkey and India.

I circled the two most cannabis friendly areas in red. The earliest traces of cannabis in India are only 4000 years old, but climatewise I see no reason why cannabis could not have survived there. There must have been a cannabis refugia at the visinity of the Caspian Sea, and who knows, maybe seeds of the ruderalis type survived under the ice sheets further north and to the east. There were icy tundras between Central and East Asia which may have formed a natural barrier during the ice age. This could explain why we have two genepools today.

Anyways by 8000 B.C cannabis was in use at the opposite ends of the continent, marked by black dots in the map. That was 4000 years before the domestication of the horse and 6000 years before the silk routes.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3474162&postcount=4

Therevverend,

Thanks for the article quote.

I also don't think that our cannabis like many other species can really survive naturally at +3000m but it's without the human help hehe! Thanks also to special micro climatic conditions in few places but the kafiristanican ancestor can not be wild at start, then with the man move and implantation probably! Climatic changements and deluge maybe have to motivate people to go there a long time ago like in Tibet.

Micro climate plain around Nuristan :

Sadly it's a difficult and dangerous place to travel nowadays but it could be the special +3000 origin land of the transformation NLD to BLD imho. Also keys in parallel with studying the old history of the animist Kalash people there.

ramse · Jun 30, 2019

regarding the use of carpets, I was reading this interesting description on the production of hashish in Anatolia in the mid-800s

MONGERI; CASTALDI; Mémoires originaux, Gazette médicale d'Orient, Constantinople, 1865, 7, pages 186-191

"Le nom d'haschisch est adopté seulement en Egypte et en Syrie; ici, on le connaît sous le
nom d'esrar…

Dans plusieurs localités de l’empire, on s’occupe avec beaucoup d'activité de la culture du
cannabis. Les plus célèbres et les principales pour l'abondance et pour la qualité de leurs
produits, sont dans l'Asie Mineure et précisément près do Nicomédie et de Brousse, et en
Mésopotamie, près do Moussel. C’est dans ces pays que les acheteurs d’esrar se rendent
vers la fin du mois de mai, d’abord pour surveiller la croissance de la plante et la disposer à
une meilleure production, ensuite pour présider à la récolte et préparer eux-mêmes la
poudro qui doit être livrée au commerce.

Le marchand d’esrar ne se rend jamais seul pour une semblable opération. Il est toujours
suivi par ses hommes et souvent même par ses pratiques qui, non seulement peuvent
quitter Constantinople sans aucun inconvénient, mais trouvant aussi dans celle expédition
des avantages réels de bourse et de santé; d'abord, étant presque tous des journaliers sans
maison et sans occupation fixo, par nature et par habitude très paresseux, ils commencent
par épargner les frais do leur nourriture car l'expéditeur se charge de leur entretien, et
ensuite ils gagnent dans ce voyage en force et en santé et se trouvent ainsi disposés à
recommencer leur usage d’esrar avec plus de courage et plus d'entrain, accomplissant ainsi
pendant les longues soirées d'hiver ces tours de force, qui font le délice de tous les
habitués.
D'ailleurs le marchand d'esrar a ses bonnes raisons d'amener avec lui celte nombreuse
suite, d'abord comme constituant autant des témoins, qui assurent les pratiques de
l'excellente qualité du produit, et ensuite par celte queue d'acolytes, ils arrivent à abuser sur
la valeur de ce produit brut, de ces bons et simples paysans d'Anatolie, qui croient dès lors
tout ce monde indispensable pour accomplir les différentes opérations préparatoires, afin
que cette substance puisse acquérir l'efficacité dont elle jouit ; de là le nom d’'esrar, ce qui
voul dire produit secret, préparation secrète qu'on donne à cette substance.
Le marchand d'esrar à son arrivée sur la localité où le cannabis est cultivé, divise les gens
en escouade qui entrent dans les champs et coupent, d'abord, toutes les sommités fleuries
de la plante, afin que les feuilles d'où on retire ce produit, puissent prendre plus de
développement et plus de vigueur. Quinze jours après cette opération, on commence la
récolte, après cependant s'être bien assuré que les feuilles ont bien grandi et qu'elles
présentent de la viscosité au toucher. La récolte se fait en moissonnant la plante. On évite
l'arrachement par crainte de perdre et de déchirer les feuilles. On transporte toutes les liges
sous un hangar, où l'on commence à détacher et à recueillir toutes les feuilles en les plaçant
pour les faire sécher sur un long tapis de laine très grossier qu'on appelle kilim. Dès que les
feuilles sont arrivées à la siccité voulue, on les ramasse et on les réunit toutes sur la moitié
du tapis, en se servant de l'autre moitié libre pour les frotter rudement, jusqu'à ce qu'elles
soient réduites en poussière. Ce premier produit est tamisé immédiatement et mis de côté: il
constitue la qualité choisie de l’esrar et s'appelle sighirma. Le résidu qui contient les
nervures des feuilles, on les réduit aussi en poudre de la mémo manière par un nouveau et
ultérieur frottement. Co second produit qui s'appelle hourda n'est pas estimé du tout; ainsi,
tandis que la première qualité se vend ordinairement 40 francs le kilogramme, l'autre, au
contraire, se place avec peine à 10 francs; car cette poudre n'est pas seulement considérée
comme le rebut comme le rebut, mais comme une substance falsifiée. La sévère surveillance qui a présidé à la première préparation faisant ordinairement défaut, le
marchand d'esrar et les pratiques qui se respectent déclarent toujours que l’esrar qu'ils
possèdent et dont ils font usage est toujours du sighirma.
D'après des renseignements exacts, la quantité de poudre d’esrar qu'on peut rccuillir dans
ces localités, dépasse ordinairement 25 mille kilogrammes, et la production de cette plante
tend toujours à augmenter malgré la défense périodique du gouvernement. L’esrar arrive à
Constantinople renfermé dans de doubles sacs: l'extérieur en crin, l'intérieur en peau. Toute
la poudre d'esrar qui est importée, n'est pas entièrement consommée dans le pays. Plus do
la moitié passe on Egypte et en Syrie.

Avant d'être livré à la consommation, l’esrar est soumis à différentes opérations selon les
différents pays En Egypte et en Syrie, tout le monde sait qu'on préfère l'extrait gras
confectionné avec le beurre. A Constantinople cet extrait n'est pas estimé; on le repousse,
au contraire à cause de son odeur rance et vireuse qui le rendent dégoulinant. L'esrar en
usage ici se trouve sous la forme de sirop, avec lequel on prépare lo cherbett ou sous celle
de pastilles qu'on fume avec le toumbéki. Le simple sirop d'esrar conservant toujours une
odeur vieux dégoûtante, pour le rendre agréable on a imaginé d'y ajouter des substances
aromatiques (baharat) sans oublier jamais à cette occasion les aphrodisiaques. Ce
deuxième correctif cependant joué un rôle très important, car par l'excitation des fonctions
génésiques qu'il provoque et qu'il entretient, imprimé au délire extatique qu'il occasionne une
direction spéciale d'idées, qui s'enchaînent entre elles de manière à constituer une série de
visions se rattachant toujours à la mémo idée prédominante, et procurent ainsi aux
personnes qui s'en servent les délices et les plaisirs réservés dans la vie future à tout bon
croyant. A cause toutefois de son prix élevé, les riches seuls peuvent se donner une telle
satisfaction, et co sont spécialement ceux de l'Anatolie qui la consomment, étant dominés
surtout par le sen timent religieux qui leur défend l'usage des boissons fermentées.
Moins scrupuleux sur ce point que leurs coreligionnaires do l'intérieur, les Musulmans de la
capitale pour se procurer du kief ont recours à des substances non moins nuisibles à la
santé, savoir: le raki (eau-de-vie) et autres boissons fermentées. Les pastilles pour les
fumeurs se préparent de la manière
suivante: On place une quantité déterminée d'esrar dans une casserole en fer, que l'on
chauffe lentement sur un brasier. Dès qu'une odeur vireuse commerce à se développer,
l'opérateur plonge la main dans un vase rempli d'une fort infusion de café, et arrose avec
soin la poudre tout en la remuant avec diligence au moyen d'une cuillère en bois. Dès que
ce mélange est bien fait, et quo la poudre s'est changée en pâte ayant l'odeur et la couleur
du café, on le retire du feu, on le verso sur une plaque de marbre, et on commence à le
manipuler pour lui donner une consistance homogène, pour le couper ensuite en morceaux
réduits on forme de petits bâtons de huit pouces de longueur et d'un pouce d'épaisseur. On
conserve ces bâtons dans du linge mouillé pour les empêcher de trop durcir, afin do pouvoir
à toute occasion en couper des rondelles avec facilité. Les pastilles du poids de quatre
grammes environ coûtent une piastres chaque (20 centimes) ; une seule pastille est plus
que suffisante pour plonger une personne non habituée, dans le délire le plus complot. La
préparation que nous venons de décrire, est le plus commune et la plus appréciée dans lo
pays. Qu'elle jouisse d'une telle préférence on le comprend facilement, d'abord, à cause de
son prix, qui est à la portée de tout le monde; ensuite à cause do sa formo, de son volume,
de sa couleur qui sont autant de circonstances favorables pour faciliter son transport et surtout sa consommation secrète ou involontaire. Ces pastilles so fumel ordinairement avec
lo tombéki par lo narguilé lorsqu'on désire une action beaucoup plus prompte, au lion du
tombéki, on emploie le tabac, cl c'est par co moyen quo les esradjis jouent toute espèce de
tours, en distribuant des cigarettes contenant cette substance, aux personnes qui ne sont
pas habituées à l'esrar."

therevverend · Jun 30, 2019

How the various plants and animals rafted or flew or swam or walked to Madagascar will always be mysterious, each separate species is it's own mystery. Then there's the why nots, if hippos could get to Madagascar why not monkeys? They made it to South America. All it takes is one pregnant female to populate a new land. One interesting thing I read is that genetically the elephant birds of Madagascar are most closely related to kiwis in New Zealand, much more so then the extinct moas. It makes a bit more sense because the ancestors of these birds could fly and even made it to Europe but it's still really weird. There is a type of bird in the moa-kiwi-ostrich-cassowary-emu-rhea family that still flies, the tinamou of Central and South America. It lives and behaves more like a grouse but it's ancestors must have been much more powerful fliers.

regarding the use of carpets, I was reading this interesting description on the production of hashish in Anatolia in the mid-800s

I think you meant 1800s. Nice find! When I first started messing with resin sifting I used a primitive form of carpet collection with newspapers.

Here's a link to an article on the history of cannabis use in the Muslim world. The Sogdians were Iranian people who were mostly Zoroastrian through much of their history although many converted to Buddhism and Nestorian Christianity. Always strange to think of Chinese and Iranian Christians. Towards the end of their history they began converting to Islam, losing their language and were absorbed into greater Persia. A big part of their longevity and ultimate disappearance was their key placement along the Silk Road. They were merchants and middlemen between east and west, their knowledge of drugs like hashish at an early point isn't surprising.

https://www.cannabisculture.com/con...h-and-other-psychoactive-substances-in-islam/

The Origin Of Cannabis

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