Polyhybrids: Why are they frowned upon?

africaseeds · Jan 14, 2020

I wanted to ask why are polyhybrids frowned upon. Some breeders like to say: "They are just making polyhybrids". And those same people like to imply that there is something bad about polyhybrids, but I'd like to know what is bad about a polyhybrid? I understand that obviously less work goes into crossing two F1's to make a polyhybrid. But for example allot of work could go into making a polyhybrid and even allot of work has gone into working Polyhybrid lines. Take Wedding Pie for example which has Wedding Cake in it, which is a polyhybrid. I'm sure Wedding Pie took a great deal of work.

I'm curious what are the obvious things and even not so obvious things about a polyhybrid that would make it undesirable to breed one or to breed with a polyhybrid.

Thanks for your time and answers.

CannaZen · Jan 14, 2020

because its so random nothing is original; polyhybrids may be but not always from lines of handfuls grown from only handfuls of seeds grown each year why polyhybridization so popular possibly, I 'll give this more thought

nothing wrong with a polyhybrid but i want my seeds to breed for true to type so that i can know what to expect in the blending process each time.

NEED 4 SEED · Jan 14, 2020

That's a nice topic. Polyhybrids aren't breeding true, but that doesn't neccessarily mean they are of low quality. If you always breed only high quality plants with other high quality plants the offspring should also consist of lots of plants of high or even higher quality than their parents.
Of course, the F2s of such crosses will split genetically and have lots of variation, but as their parents and grandparents were such great plants, the F2s will also be great plants - with a lot of variation.
Which gives rise to new and special phenos/combinations you didn't have before and which are probably useful to find new medical or recreational applications. I am actually growing some of my polyhybrid crosses a.t.m. to look for those special plants and can't wait what they may bring to the table.
The only thing you have to follow in that kind of breeding is to select only very desirable, outstanding and healthy parents for keeping a high level of quality in those lines.
From those lines you can still start to breed homozygous lines to stabilize these traits for seed making.
But if you just want to produce outstanding clones for production, you can leave it at that level.

My 2 cents.

troutman · Jan 14, 2020

The funny thing is some people who complain about Polyhybrids don't want pure plants that flower longer than 9 weeks. :tiphat:

Ringodoggie · Jan 14, 2020

You got that right. I brought back seeds from Columbia decades ago and have been growing that strain for almost 30 years. About 5 years ago I got tired of 16 to 18 week finishing times and started buying seeds at seedbanks.

I often miss the clean Colombian high but the hybrids provide a lot of variety in taste and that's a big deal to me.

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GMT · Jan 14, 2020

The idea that when you cross 2 great plants with each other, ALL of the offspring will be great is false. The idea that if you cross 2 less than ideal plants, ALL of the offspring will be of poor quality is false.
Of course if you are using parents that come from a long line of poor plants, the statistical odds of finding a great plant is greatly reduced. If you cross 2 cats together, you aren't getting any puppies in the litter. But so much rearranging goes on at meiosis, that things just aren't that simple. The genetic line that the parents come from is so much more important than the specific parent plants, that when talking about polyhybrids, there are a lot of lines to be considered. So many breeders hide the precise lines their stock comes from that for most people to analyse the parental lines is impossible.
Anything can come from crossing polyhybrids almost. It makes it great for finding new clones, if you're going to put the time in to search through them, but most want to reliably predict what their seeds will produce.
That's much more doable when buying and growing true f1s or inbred lines.

Dropped Cat · Jan 15, 2020

Polyhybrids are types of cultivars many F1 crosses to be had top quality.

Some breeders out cross poly’s into multiple lines to re establish desired traits.

Landrace genetics are readily available to breeders who thoughtfully make good crosses.

If all you grow are seeds from breeders F1 crosses, no worries.

Polyhybrids are good.

MAHA KALA · Jan 15, 2020

polyhybrids are fun. but if you want certain type of weed with reliable traits. its useless. if you want, let say, durban poison, active uplifting weed that tastes like licorice and anise. you will not buy og kush x gdp/durban poison cross

you will not find real DP or will have hard time to find something similar to real deal DP. also if you, by the chance, find something similar, it will be one pheno amongst other many different phenos, its poor selection.. but if you will grow real DP, you will get a lot of phenos of DP to choose from..

Gypsy Nirvana · Jan 15, 2020

I think it all depends on if the grower wants uniformity - or variety -

- variety might mean varied finishing times and differing heights of plants - plus different nute and light regimens to get the best out of a plant - but for the home grower who likes different types of herb in their stash - and is not too concerned about what the market wants - then growing polyhybrids usually brings nice surprises -
__________________

Benny106 · Jan 15, 2020

Not all polyhybrids are created equally.

Donald Mallard · Jan 15, 2020

africaseeds said:
I wanted to ask why are polyhybrids frowned upon. Some breeders like to say: "They are just making polyhybrids". And those same people like to imply that there is something bad about polyhybrids, but I'd like to know what is bad about a polyhybrid? I understand that obviously less work goes into crossing two F1's to make a polyhybrid. But for example allot of work could go into making a polyhybrid and even allot of work has gone into working Polyhybrid lines. Take Wedding Pie for example which has Wedding Cake in it, which is a polyhybrid. I'm sure Wedding Pie took a great deal of work.

I'm curious what are the obvious things and even not so obvious things about a polyhybrid that would make it undesirable to breed one or to breed with a polyhybrid.

Thanks for your time and answers.

it doesnt take much work to cross two popular varieties and create something considered new ,
i think that is all the problem
well other than the results can be inconsistent, a bit of hit and miss can occur ...

im not sure many of these new types took a lot of work as u suggest ,
if you start with something already really good , cross it with something already really good ,
and bingo u get something really good ,
one has to wonder how much work u actually did ,
or did u just do some plant mating ?? .. lol ..

africaseeds · Jan 15, 2020

Let's say I took a polyhybrid and kept inbreeding it, would it get stable at some point?

El Timbo · Jan 15, 2020

africaseeds said:
Let's say I took a polyhybrid and kept inbreeding it, would it get stable at some point?

If you inbred it in a way designed to achieve that aim it would.

NEED 4 SEED · Jan 15, 2020

GMT said:
The idea that when you cross 2 great plants with each other, ALL of the offspring will be great is false. The idea that if you cross 2 less than ideal plants, ALL of the offspring will be of poor quality is false.
es.

If you talk about my comment, I didn't speak of ALL resulting plants being great. I said lots of great plants.
I just wanted to emphasize that you HAVE to make some kind of selection. I have seen so-called breeders just slap any pheno of a strain to any other pheno they were getting. Sometimes no selection being made because of small runs etc...
Also to me its clear that many bad traits are masked by hybrid vigour or because they were recessive traits and that they will probably return in the offspring. So I didn't want to generalize anything but when someone is trying out the polyhybrid game be sure to make decent selections.

GMT · Jan 15, 2020

Bad traits are masked by all sorts of things, including looking like the best plant of the bunch.

MrFancyPlants · Jan 15, 2020

I don't think people hate on the polyhybrids as such. Pretty much everything out there is a polyhybrid, unless you start with two landraces and work the line.

What people probably take issue with, and label with the word "polyhybrid," is general modern breeding techniques, such as:

Female-only reproduction, which naturally favors plants that exhibit intersex tendencies, or can be more easily triggered to intersex;
Lack of genetic diversity due to absence of males, and people using "elite clones" which further accelerate inbreeding (versus open pollination with large populations). This bottleneck results in deleterious traits of that single mother/father pair being potentially carried over to the entire progeny.
Lack of testing. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I just don't see how anyone can release a dozen new Hype x Hype strains every year and actually test them in different grow media, different indoor lighting, outdoors, pest environments, etc.

Just my 2c.

CannaZen · Jan 19, 2020

following out polynomials is like finding out polyhybrid math. It delves in an area mapping out time i feel like, i think. say you got two males one bld one WLD and a male plant thats skinny of both what are you gonna do well later in the f2 down that rabbit hole you may come out with one WLD and more BLD again down the road, this is the act of a line and a symptom of selective observance, or not.

troutman · Jan 19, 2020

africaseeds said:
Let's say I took a polyhybrid and kept inbreeding it, would it get stable at some point?

It would be easier to stabilize something from an F1. From a polyhybrid it would take more time and effort to make
an IBL. It helps if you know what you're looking for while finding a male and female with those traits to breed with.
Don't let that stop you if that's your goal. Good Luck.

Dropped Cat · Jan 19, 2020

troutman said:
It would be easier to stabilize something from an F1. From a polyhybrid it would take more time and effort to make
an IBL. It helps if you know what you're looking for while finding a male and female with those traits to breed with.
Don't let that stop you if that's your goal. Good Luck.

This.

Think about it, in two or three years you could have made your
very own keeper P1 x P2, from the good stock you have now.

A few dozen plants, careful selection, and a little luck.

Or, having done nothing, you would be two or three years older
and wishing you did.

@hempy · Jan 20, 2020

Poly hybrids means many lines with in that seed that means they are unstable and even finding a plant close to say the mom plant can be almost impossible to find.Yes you can find great plants to select from with in the line but if your looking for stable traits then your out of luck.

Polyhybrids: Why are they frowned upon?

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