Dry summer guerillas! How do you provide irrigation?

Gantz · Dec 3, 2006

i was thinking of something like that. but in my mind i made it differently. an airtight container (or a bottle) would hold the water and have a tube (let's name it A) that will let water inside a part of the planter that is for holding water (let's name it X). another tube (let's name it B) would go into the bottle and to the X part. when the water level is low enough for the air to get into the B tube, air will get into the bottle and water will come through tube A into X.

what do you think?

Fast Pine · Dec 3, 2006

Thats a nice design there Gantz....I like the ideas being formed here..

Say, BC...

Could you or anyone, go into greater detail on yer proposed ways to catch water with the tarp and barrel setup. Im worried about wind blowing the tarp allover the place. Im doing alotta planning and scouting for next year. This thread has totaly changed the way I am gonna plant If this rain harvesting method works for me. Im in the south west US. One of tha dryest parts.

Just look at that soil...Its dry as hell here. I traditionally truck water to my res in a waterbed bladder....My truck has only one more season left on it, so this is comming at a good time..

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 4, 2006

Gantz said:
i was thinking of something like that. but in my mind i made it differently. an airtight container (or a bottle) would hold the water and have a tube (let's name it A) that will let water inside a part of the planter that is for holding water (let's name it X). another tube (let's name it B) would go into the bottle and to the X part. when the water level is low enough for the air to get into the B tube, air will get into the bottle and water will come through tube A into X.

what do you think?

I added a couple of things....C is a vent tube from X to the surface to prevent X from being airtight itself. D is a wick to get water from X to the planter.
Not a bad idea really, although I fail to see the advantage over simply running a wick from your rez, to the planter without all the extra stuff between?

Fast pine-I live in a very low wind area of Oregon, so I got away with just tying rope around the 2 top edges of my black plastic sheet, the other ends attached inside the lip of the rez(plastic garbage can, etc). If winds can be as strong as I think they are in the desert, you may need to use a very durrable tarp that won't shread or come appart in the wind, and make sure things are soildly attached.

Gantz · Dec 4, 2006

well X doesn't have to be airtight. and the idea was to have an almost constant level of water. when the plant needs it takes and when the waterlevel drops, more water takes it's place.
i wish i had an automatic dayly watering system but i haven't found one. i'm more of a diy guy miself and if someone has an idea of how to make one...then please share it.

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 4, 2006

What I am not sure about is how you intend water to get from "X" to the planters soil? What is X anyways? Is it a seperate tank under the planter? Or is it a zone filled with a different planting media or what?

The system I have featured here is a daily watering system, as the plants soil drys, it draws more water from the rez through capilary action of the wick(a cotton rope). It is automated watering at its most simple. I'm not sure if you are familier with passive hydro, but it works in a very similar way.
Also there are numerous planters on the market(Wal-mart sells one) that work basicly the same way, people use them to keep their houseplants watered while they are on vacation, or if they are just lazy asses who don't always keep their plants watered.

Here is a link to example

Gantz · Dec 4, 2006

Gantz said:
an airtight container (or a bottle) would hold the water and have a tube (let's name it A) that will let water inside a part of the planter that is for holding water (let's name it X).

lets say your planter is a bucket. the first inch you can fill with peat pellets or something else like perlite or whatever you use. its purpose is to be like a tray that will hold water inside. the water will flow inside and fill it up untill the air tube is hit by water. in that case the flow of water stops because no air is getting into the airtight water container.
if you don't want the plant tu suffocate u can drill air holes a little higher. this way the plant doesn't drown and the roots can go out and into the soil around it(if buried)

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 5, 2006

I think you couldn't bury a system like this, I just don't think air could get to the roots. I still think too much water would be comming in contact with the soil in the planter, unless you used a very airy growing media like lava rock or perlite, a peat or even coco based mix would stay very wet.

Don't get me wrong, I think your idea is based on good science, and could work. I guess I didn't get how your "X" part would work because you didn't explain how it would exist as a diferent part of the same planter, I envisioned a very wet bucket of mud from top to bottom.

I envision using this system with a media like lava rock, that is very airy, this way you could bury the planter and prevent root rot and losing too much water to evaporation on warm days, the planter would be filled top to bottom with the media.

Gantz · Dec 5, 2006

you are right and know your stuff very well oldtimer

the system is based on a drawing i made a few years ago. i've looked over it and now i remember my original concept which at the time seamed possible.
my original concept would have no means of self watering. i wanted that the pellets i would use would go a little higher then the holes in the side. this way the water never touched the earth and the lower part would serve as a reservoir. in time the roots would grow down and into the water and have it's fill, and because the soil would never touch the water it would never be too wet.
it was never designed to be burried, the holes were put in the side for air and to make sure i never overwater.

Tirs · Dec 6, 2006

BACKCOUNTRY said:
Its a cool looking idea, but I just don't think you are going to reach the water table in most places without a more substantial auger.

Hah well I tried. This thread makes me glad I don't live in a such a dry climate, I only had to water once last year though I could have done it more. I wouldn't want to do what you guys go through, too much work, just digging a hole big enough to fit a rez gets my respect lol.

Out of curiosity how far down is your water table?

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 6, 2006

I live in mountainous terrain, lots of high ridges and low valleys over and over again, so the water table is close in some places, far in others. Also the water table raises and lowers according to the season, its higher in rainy weather, lower in dry weather.
And actually we don't always have water tables, often the source of water somes from what is known as a "aquifer".

Most wells in my area are at least 20' deep, if the water table is found at all, often sulfur water or salt water is found insted depending on where you live.

Here are a few quotes from wikpedia-

The water table or phreatic surface is the surface where the water pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure. The water table is also often erroneously defined as the surface that separates the phreatic from the vadose zone, below which all rocks are saturated with water.

A large amount of water within a body of sand or rock below the water table is called an aquifer, and the ability of rocks to store such groundwater is dependent on their porosity and permeability.

The practice of drilling wells to extract groundwater is dependent on understanding the water table. Because wells must reach the water table, its depth determines the minimum depth of a viable well, and thus the feasibility of drilling it......

Form
The form of a water table may change and vary due to seasonal changes or topography. In undeveloped regions, or areas with high amounts of precipitation, the water table roughly follows the contour of the overlying land surface, and rises and falls with rainy or dry weather. Springs and oases occur when the water table reaches the surface. Springs commonly form on hillsides, where the earth's slanting surface may "intersect" with the water table. Other, unseen springs are found under rivers and lakes, and account for the sometimes surprisingly well-preserved water levels which occur in times of mild drought.

Surface Topography
Within an aquifer, the water table is rarely horizontal, but reflects the surface relief due to the effect of gravity. In hilly regions, the variation in gradient give rise to rivers, springs or oases when the water table intersects the surface.

Perched water tables
A perched water table (or perched aquifer) is an aquifer that occurs above the main water table. This occurs when there is an impermeable layer of rock (aquiclude) above the main aquifer but below the surface. Water percolating down to the main aquifer gets trapped above this second impermeable rock layer. If a perched aquifer's flow intersects the Earth's surface, at a valley wall for example, the water is discharged as a spring.

Fluctuations
Seasonal fluctuations in the water table. During the dry season, river beds may dry up.
Seasonal fluctuations
In some regions (Britain for example)(and western US), winter precipitation is often higher than summer precipitation. The groundwater storage is not recharged by precipitation in summer, consequently, the water table is lowered in the April-October period yearly. This disparity between the level of the winter and summer water table is known as the zone of intermittent saturation, wherein the water table will fluctuate in response to climatic conditions.

Fast Pine · Dec 6, 2006

I m at 8000 feet, in the highest desert in the US.. so Im skrewed on tha aquifer thang..The wells round the area are 300+ feet deep.. Last year I had to use a small excavator to dig my holes because the clay is soo hard here...,

Say,
I was thinking of some ways to catch water. How about suspending a cammo tarp from all 4 corners to trees. So as that the middle saggs down, resembeling a sattelite dish pointing straight toard the sky. Cut a 3 inch hole in the bottom of the basin. Stick rain barrel under the hole. Maby slap some window screen on the top of the REZ to keep the rodents and debris out.

I see disaster when I immagine a rain catchment set up using tarps, but I am determined to make it work!...The rainstorms here are harsh. :badday:

. midsummer hail and fierce winds accompany the rain... In order to successfully trap the water, the tarp cant be thrashing around in the wind..I must devise a way to keep the tarp stable in the wind. I thought of reinforceing it with chickenwire, but that would force me to make a bunch of holes in the tarp so I can ziptie it to the chickenwire..

I have also thought of cutting and stripping some small saplings for support...but I am having some moral issues with cutting live trees for guerill use.
Any ideas?

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 7, 2006

Perhaps a better idea for your situation would be to get a cheap plastic kiddy pool, and bury it in the ground to use as a rain catcher? Or a pool could be anchored in a different way above ground? It would be a bit more rigid rain catcher to work with in your situation, just a idea.

Tirs · Dec 7, 2006

300'... thats pretty damn deep hah, even 20' is deep, thanks for the info.

I was thinking more about this, poking around regular gardening forums and I saw someone ask if anyone knew how to make driwater, no replies unfortunately but I went with the idea and found this:

The DriWater supplement, is a time-released gel consisting of 97.85% pure water, 2% Cellulose Gum, and 0.15% Aluminum, and is used to grow plant material over a 3-month period without the need for additional liquid hydration.

Well water costs nothing and I would expect such small amounts of cellulose gum and aluminum to be next to nothing also. The trick would be to find the right type of gum. http://www.plthomas.com/gums_overview.htm
I'll talk to a biochem friend about this to see if he could help me at all. I'll also email this company to see if they could make a recommendation. A homebrew seems doable though, it would make driwater application cost effective and it could be done in much higher quantities too.

Dignan · Dec 7, 2006

You desert growers, just be glad you can dig where you are! I'm in the high desert and digging isn't even an option... almost everywhere you go, it's solid granite just inches below the surface. I am forced to use containers... but the 15-gallon nursery pots do work like a charm for 2-3 plants. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Also helps to be in good health and able to hump 50 lbs of water on your back, when necessary. I feel for the med growers who are forced to grow guerilla-style.

Peace-

Dig

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 7, 2006

Home made Driwater would be cool, I bet you will find that the catch is in the process of manufacturing it more than the ingredients. Let us know what you find! I also think the trick will be to find the right kind of Aluminium too.

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 7, 2006

I just want to bump this pic incase anyone will happen by who has experience with it or a opinion.

minds_I · Dec 8, 2006

Hello BC,

I would think that as the water level in the barrel gets to the bottom, capilary action in the wick will be countered by gravity. I could be wrong but thisystem can be tested in your garage before being being schlepped to your plots.

How deep of a well are you thinking about?

minds_I

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 8, 2006

minds_I said:
Hello BC,

I would think that as the water level in the barrel gets to the bottom, capilary action in the wick will be countered by gravity. I could be wrong but thisystem can be tested in your garage before being being schlepped to your plots.

This is the current plan, not as long of a wick will be needed, although I was not aware gravity would have such a impact??
My wick will be encased in vinyl tube from the bottom the rez to the inside of the planter to prevent moisture loss to the air/soil. I guess I need to figure out how to build a tester for this .

I would test this in my heated garage if I had one, insted I am going to scale it down a bit and test it in a corner of the house.

minds_I said:
How deep of a well are you thinking about?

minds_I

If you were speaking to me, I'm not building any wells.

minds_I · Dec 8, 2006

Hello BC,

Yeah, by well I meant the rez.

I think the above idea is practical as you don,t have to dig so deep. Also the gravity effect on capilary action has to do with limiting the height as a function of the material and it's cross sectional area. Beyond that, I don't recall anymore the formulas but I did this in an engineering class too many years ago.

Test your wick material by just hanging it in a bucket of water and see how high it goes. Try different synthetics as well as natural products.

I am thinking if you can find a material that is resistant to decay you would be aces with above design.

Will 18 gallons provide enough water?

minds_I

BACKCOUNTRY · Dec 8, 2006

BACKCOUNTRY said:
I do think the 55 gallon drum may be more than is needed, I'm thinking my version will use a smaller, shallower rez like a 18 gallon tote, I'll group 3 plants to a area and have a backup rez uphill from them in case I need to siphon more water to the individual plants resivours through the season.

I will be using a larger rez to resupply the smaller resivours located at several plantings in the area.

Cotton rope has proven to be more than enough in smaller applications, and I think it will do nice. I did tests in one of the tree planters I was working with a while back, using cotton rope.

Dry summer guerillas! How do you provide irrigation?

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