The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

led05 · Jun 5, 2018

growingcrazy said:
I wish I knew more about the ins and outs of the soil business... We have an abundance of peat and pine bark around here. I'm just not familiar enough with realistic start-up costs.

Doka, In regards to labor/cost in organic production... In the photo you posted of the veg room with the long trays... A room like that can/has been setup where available canopy space was increased by 25%, labor cut by 15-20 and can be much more depending on the restrictions of the building.

No purchasing new medium
No un-bagging medium
No disposing of bags
No break apart medium
No filling pots
No repotting

No disposing of old medium

Cuts-> Soil Bed -> Harvest

Initial investment is the hitch, which when you really think about it...isn't all that much.

92* last weekend, 59* today...46* tonight. Super.

a good screening machine and bagger used is half a million, new can be 1-5m depending on size..... I had a chat about this with a local quarry owner not too long ago..... They actually bag up just regular dirt from around here for another local dist, probably 40# bags that sell for around $5 at all local hardware centers, this is the same dirt I get for about $25/ yard delivered....

There's money to be made, even if you don't own the machines I guess is the point, especially with local bog resources.

same weather here, just a day or two behind

led05 · Jun 5, 2018

jidoka said:
Only Ornamental...back down the rabbit hole. Is silicate stored as an insoluble salt like Ca?

What I am really curious about is does excess silicate prevent the uptake of phosphate in the plant. And if it does is the silicate worth it?

I've seen/experienced what I believe to be this issue... S and Si both are used quite freely to P demise IMHO, Si probably because it normally comes along with K

jidoka · Jun 5, 2018

I had people I work for add both cano3 and agsil to my formula. Tissue P tanked. Was it the nitrate or silicate?

Probably nitrate. But w/o two separate tests I won’t know. Or was it the combo

You gotta be careful with experiments

Arnold. · Jun 5, 2018

growingcrazy said:
CEC @ 22 =

Ca @ 3800 = 85%
Mg @ 264 = 10%
K @ 343 = 4%
Na @ 50 = 1%

Nice starting point, isn't it?

Just need to bring that K up during veg and flower.

growingcrazy said:
P @ 682 by meq or @ 900 if simply doubling ppm.

I tried, but I don't get what you are saying here. Is this for case 2? And if so, how did you get to those numbers?

growingcrazy said:
Soil can handle that quantity of P going in at once. You can do huge adjustments on soil... Make all the adjustments you can at once.

Exactly what I wanted to hear

Any experience with elemental sulphur?

Can I plant after the first good rain?

growingcrazy · Jun 5, 2018

Arnold. said:
Nice starting point, isn't it? Just need to bring that K up during veg and flower.

I tried, but I don't get what you are saying here. Is this for case 2? And if so, how did you get to those numbers?

Exactly what I wanted to hear
Any experience with elemental sulphur?

Can I plant after the first good rain?

You don't have far to go to have a good base soil...Little work and you are set.

Disregard the P comment. I had different numbers in my head at the time. Just 2x K as usual.

growingcrazy · Jun 5, 2018

jidoka said:
I had people I work for add both cano3 and agsil to my formula. Tissue P tanked. Was it the nitrate or silicate?

Probably nitrate. But w/o two separate tests I won’t know. Or was it the combo

You gotta be careful with experiments

This was after stretch?

How many stock tanks are you running with this?

Lightweight · Jun 5, 2018

jidoka said:
No worries. I will get it figured out.

Here is another thing ol Slow got right. All of these rock dust or clay amendments with Al in them. Well it does not take a low pH for that Al to get in your plant

I am told a strong fungal network can stop it, but in an annual ???

Does that include soft rock phosphate? I was thinking to start adding 50lbs to my greenhouses every round to get some longer term phosphorus reserves built up, but I don't want to be adding excess Al.

cannascholar · Jun 6, 2018

Grow Sil coupled with AgSil and wollastonite has been good for me. Does anyone in living soil use P acid in foliars/drench? Usually pH with citric but like the extra P. Been liking fossilized sea bird guano along with bone,cal phos for P source.

Arnold. · Jun 6, 2018

Lightweight said:
Does that include soft rock phosphate?

Probably not the answer you wanted to hear but this most likely depends on your source. But yes, SRP can have a metal imbalance, but so do all the composts, EWC's, kelp etc. Unfortunately (where I am) it is difficult to get a full analysis from the seller.

led05 · Jun 6, 2018

Arnold. said:
Probably not the answer you wanted to hear but this most likely depends on your source. But yes, SRP can have a metal imbalance, but so do all the composts, EWC's, kelp etc. Unfortunately (where I am) it is difficult to get a full analysis from the seller.

It annoys me much how "covert" sellers are about what's actually contained within their products. The reality is mined products and what's available naturally has many different minerals along for the ride, if only we knew exactly what they were, or were told it, accurately. 5 year old + analysis, the most positive ones always, fake ones etc are rampant and I'm not sure regulated anywhere, any country. Isn't this why people like Calphos, it's mined from a specific known source?

Sadly if we just truly knew what was present we could work thru things and balance more appropriately.

Additionally - You'd think someone would have come along with a reliable soil product by now that's priced fairly... clearly the logistics are harder than many would think, or else a huge Opp sits waiting. I envision regional screening plants pulling local resources appropriate for general regional climates, weather, elevations etc. and a heavier product than what's currently out there. Perhaps a 2-3cf bale weighs 100lbs vs say 50lbs type of consistency when completely dry

Helpful link - https://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/Product1.aspx

..

growingcrazy · Jun 6, 2018

jidoka said:
I had people I work for add both cano3 and agsil to my formula. Tissue P tanked. Was it the nitrate or silicate?

Probably nitrate. But w/o two separate tests I won’t know. Or was it the combo

You gotta be careful with experiments

I have an SFV Bx that is my most difficult variety to get P into... I have to work to get full green stems top to bottom for a run.

Odd thing about this plant is that it uptakes N better than anything else I have. At the same PPM as everything else...it is still heavy on N. The only conclusion I have come up with is the easy N path blocks the P.

This is the plant I use to test different P sources now.

growingcrazy · Jun 6, 2018

led05 said:
Additionally - You'd think someone would have come along with a reliable soil product by now that's priced fairly... clearly the logistics are harder than many would think, or else a huge Opp sits waiting. I envision regional screening plants pulling local resources appropriate for general regional climates, weather, elevations etc. and a heavier product than what's currently out there. Perhaps a 2-3cf bale weighs 100lbs vs say 50lbs type of consistency when completely dry...

I think the hard part is getting on the shelf next to FF, Roots, NFTG, etc...

I recall a brand out of PA (edit)? Anyways... the story I got was that they signed a contract with one of the big hydro suppliers...supplier bought product for one year and then stopped. They legally couldn't find another buyer due to contract...

It's a pretty cornered market now... where do you get in?

I like amendments and soil because of the detail work involved, it would seems most of these companies are in it for opposite reasons.

growingcrazy · Jun 6, 2018

cannascholar said:
Grow Sil coupled with AgSil and wollastonite has been good for me. Does anyone in living soil use P acid in foliars/drench? Usually pH with citric but like the extra P. Been liking fossilized sea bird guano along with bone,cal phos for P source.

I Use food grade 85% P acid anytime the situation allows. ~20oz/gallon H20 if your using it to make something like GH ph down.

I have used it at that ratio with a doser and had great success too. Correct P soil levels end the need for it if your certifiable organic.

As far as foliar...I like to fill my sprayer tank straight out of the H2O only reservoir that is pH adjusted with P acid... works well.

paradoxlost · Jun 6, 2018

growingcrazy said:
I think the hard part is getting on the shelf next to FF, Roots, NFTG, etc...

I recall a brand out of PA (edit)? Anyways... the story I got was that they signed a contract with one of the big hydro suppliers...supplier bought product for one year and then stopped. They legally couldn't find another buyer due to contract...

It's a pretty cornered market now... where do you get in?

I like amendments and soil because of the detail work involved, it would seems most of these companies are in it for opposite reasons.

A friend and I are getting into it. We are sitting on a fuck ton of mushroom compost. So it makes everything super cheap. We basically have the strategy of go to all the small mom and pop shops that we sell weed to and go from there

jidoka · Jun 7, 2018

growingcrazy said:
This was after stretch?

How many stock tanks are you running with this?

Veg and during stretch. One of those deals where you come back after a while and surprise

Only thing worse is guys that listen to you exactly. Then who the fuck do you blame :puppydoge

jidoka · Jun 7, 2018

I have not specifically checked sep.

If you wanna know what got me going it’s royal gold tuper. Basalt. Nutes Al checks in at 1 part per 10 million. Tissue up to 60 ppm. Wtf? Actual soil pH is always above 6

I had to crank my Fe input down also

I may not wanna know srp. My soil has plenty

led05 · Jun 7, 2018

growingcrazy said:
I think the hard part is getting on the shelf next to FF, Roots, NFTG, etc...

I recall a brand out of PA (edit)? Anyways... the story I got was that they signed a contract with one of the big hydro suppliers...supplier bought product for one year and then stopped. They legally couldn't find another buyer due to contract...

It's a pretty cornered market now... where do you get in?

I like amendments and soil because of the detail work involved, it would seems most of these companies are in it for opposite reasons.

if a lot of people are unhappy with the products offered and they are way overpriced, it's cornered for the wrong reasons, which equals opp....I still think it's a purely logistics thing

the people you mention it seems didn't have the resources to make it work and the contract signed you mention.... that sounds... like an excuse for failure or a really piss poor Bus decision... it also sounds like an inequitable contract, IF I was foolish enough to have signed it in the first place I would have fought it and sold elsewhere in the interim till it was dismissed....

perhaps good soil makers, bad business folk... you need both

led05 · Jun 7, 2018

paradoxlost said:
A friend and I are getting into it. We are sitting on a fuck ton of mushroom compost. So it makes everything super cheap. We basically have the strategy of go to all the small mom and pop shops that we sell weed to and go from there

lots of mushroom compost in the NE, everywhere, someone turning it into a solid soil blend would be a good choice... mix it heavy and not light buddy, there's a few makers out there already...

my point was a real bag of soil or at least half of it, reusable, not what's out there now.... I'd sell to everyone, everywhere, not focused on the 500-800% markups in hydro stores... sorry owners

paradoxlost · Jun 7, 2018

Start small to not overwhelm yourself though. Plus were juggling a couple projects already

growingcrazy · Jun 8, 2018

2-3-1 Fish Hydrolysate, CaCo3, B, Agsil16.

Pure goodness. Agsil emulsifies the oils in the hydrolysate carrying the Ca and B like a champ.

Anyone up for a trial?

The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

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