My canopy is blocking out alot of light below, can I suppliment? what with?

well, I had a great surprise on the clone front today!!!

Went to check them out, and several of them had white roots busting out along the stems.

Even one that was bent over with a broken stem, and everything below that break (into the GH rooter plug) looked dead, had roots busting out along the stem above the break.

Just alot of root growth is "above" the plugs, which seemed odd to me considering that there is alot of light, I've got a 'true' 105 watt CFL right above the dome.

A couple of them have roots coming out of the plugs.

So all and all, even though the leaves started to yellow/splotch, they are rooting, which is a plus.

Even better is that it only took about a week.

Most of the clones are really small, I made them no more than 3 inches long or so.

on a bit of a negative note, the plants are all pushed up against the lights again, condensation occurs, and then burns the tops real good

I really need to cut them back today I'm thinking, a bunch of clones will be taken.

Now that I've been in 12/12 for about a week, can I still throw the clones from the flowering plants in 24/0 to root them?

I'm going to chop things so far back it makes me sad. Just by taking off the first foot, a shit ton of vegetation is going to come off.

Again the growth looks like a mushroom.

But I have no doubt there's no other way around it.

I also have too many plants in there, so something is going to have to happen there as well.

Bought some tools to dig outdoors, and got some dry organic ferts.

I have a bat guano from Peace of Mind that is 0-5-0, and a kelp that is 1-.01-2. Also have the A to Z supplement.

So in theory I go dig some holes without anything illegal with me, toss the ferts into the soil, and then a different day come back with the plants bagged up and drop them in.

That way with at least a couple of the plants I don't waste all that great vegetation they've got going on.

I'm thinking also after the chop, I'll hit them with less nutes, and a real nice dose of rhizotonic. That stuff has done me real well so far, and I think it should help the plants recover well.

Cool 1love, am very glad to hear your first set of clones are doing well. Make sure you take them out from under these domes as soon as they are showing roots, else you will promote mold/fungus. With these clones, grow (veg) them to no more than 8 inches tall (possibly smaller, depends on the density in which you will plant them out for flowering) and keep the lamp down low to make sure the internodes (spaces between each branch pair) are as short as possible. Then switch them over to a 12/12. You can keep them under the CFL for a week or so in 12/12 if you have space issues in your flowering room.

Second set of clones (the ones from your monster overgrowth) - no worries, actually some people say it is easier to get cuttings to root when they have been taken from a plant in the first stages of flowering.

After the chop - yes, a light hand with the nutes seems wise.

Planting out - all sounds absolutely great. I have visions of a little forest growing for you!

"mushroom" growth pattern is a great thing. Nice flat canopy = even distribution of light across your flowering tips. Great stuff.

Really glad you are making good progress with the plants.

yes, it's just scary with the chop coming up.

Ran some errands with the wife yesterday, and ended up spending most of yesterday assembling some new furniture we got.

So I've yet to make the chop happen. In the veg cab I've got nothing right now, so I'm thinking about putting the clones in keg cups, and throwing them in that room. Just need to seal the light up in there a bit better so it doesn't escape into the room and keep wife awake.

I've also noticed something, been going on for 3-4 weeks now, I always assumed it was due to lack of light from the blocked out canopy, but I'm not certain.

I've got growth that just seems to die, whether it's a leaf, or a new baby shoot, the thing is that unlike classic yellowing "N def" death, this stuff dies green, not deep dark green, but it is green when it dies.

So I always figured it was because it wasn't getting enough light, and just died off.

What do you think?

also how soon should I start feeding the clones, and how much can/should I feed them?

I'm going to be growing them out in canna coco that has been rinsed/flushed/sanitized.

Canna brand nutes.

I can suppliment with GH sub culture (though prolly won't just yet), mycorrizhae (rooters and williams), and rhizotonic. I'm definately going to hit them with myc. and rhizo.

Feed the clones with a half-strength "grow" formula for the first week, then move up to full strength. Alternatively, use something like "formulex" - a nutrient designed for clones and seedlings, again for the first week, then switch to your grow formula.

Coco is great - make sure you use a nute formula that is designed for coco though (canna coco is perfect)

Supplements/micro nutrients - am no expert on these. All I'd say is: go easy with them unless your plants show signs of deficiencies. IMO it is better to underfeed (which tends to produce slightly smaller yields but much better tasting weed ; it's also easy to correct) than to overfeed (which can kill your plants pretty quickly, will smother flavours, encourage lots of leaf growth vs flowers, can also be a pig to correct because of the build up of salts in the growing medium) Chem. weed = yeauch! This is just my opinion though - I know alot of growers swear by all sorts of pills an potions to get that little bit extra out of their plants.

...if you have used alot of rhizo with the cuttings, you can probably give that a break for a while

myc. and subcult - I dont know anything about these, sorry, but am sure there is stuff elsewhere on this site about their use. Let me know how they work out though, I'd be interested to hear?

If your veg cab is empty, move the clones over as soon as they are rooted (and when you have fixed the light leak - lol!

I have this light escape problem but it is much reduced by having the lights on during the daylight hours, when I am not there (light is on 4am to 10pm). I close the cab doors when I am asleep to keep the light in and open them up and set my fans running first thing in the morning. The cab doesn't get sufficiently sweaty during the few hours before I open it up to cause the plants any damage (though it would in flowering, so..) when I am on 12/12 I have the light on 8am to 8pm: doesn't disturb my sleep and is still on when I get back from work and want to work on the plants. It's good for security too - hard to see that there are gro lights on room during the day because the natural daylight cover most light leakage up ; I keep a low wattage energy saving bedside lamp on at the same time so any light visible in the room looks like I have just left the bedside lamp on). Tidy!

re: I've got growth that just seems to die, whether it's a leaf, or a new baby shoot, the thing is that unlike classic yellowing "N def" death, this stuff dies green, not deep dark green, but it is green when it dies. So I always figured it was because it wasn't getting enough light, and just died off.

Hmm hard to say. Sounds like light, as you say, as I would expect the greeness to pale before the leaves die. Check the roots are happy and the run off water is draining freely (always worth checking anyway)? Otherwise I wouldn't worry for now unless the problem is spreading up the plant.

I'm running 8 to 8 on 12/12 right now, seems like the best sched I could come up with.

mycorrizhae is a "wonder fungus" that has been getting alot more press as of late even in mainstream gardening.

There are numerous blends. I've got one that is a powder and soluable, and the other is in granuals, both contain at least 10-20 different strains.

They are a symbiotic fungi that attach at the feeder roots (I think) and help out.

I've heard awesome things about it.

I've also heard salt based nutes can stunt/kill beneficials, so I dunno what my luck will be.

Also the Sub Culture is a blend of beneficial organisms. I've heard it can be overdone, unlike mycorrizhae, which is safe to use in any amount (more or less) and doesn't muck with PH to my knowledge.

I'm rinsing the hell outta my coco right now, it sat for a bit while wet, so I hit it with boiling water to make sure it doesn't have any living mold or bugs. Then the clones will get keg cups, today or tomorrow, I'm a lazy bastard that procrastinates.

So I'm likely going to do mycorrizhae powder on the root area itself and all around the rooter plug, and then mix some granuals into the cup.

It has to actually come into contact with the roots to work from what I've read.

I don't know if clones usually just sprout roots from their stems, I wasn't expecting that.

I mean, even pretty far up some have roots coming out, and again that is in direct light too.

Some are even nice and fuzzy with the feeders out (no I don't think it is mold).

I thought maybe it was because of the rhizotonic, but I dunno.

We'll see.

Thanks for the update on the micro-org supplements. Very interesting.

This business of roots coming out of the stems - I think it has to be the rhizotonic. I wouldn't worry about it - provided that the clones have good root development "below the surface" the plants should develop a good healthy root mass as they grow. It may be wise to water the plants from the bottom up (by immersing the growing medium in a pot of water/nutes until the water reaches the surface of the growing medium, then withdrawing the plant/pot from the water) - this will help keep moisture away from the stem of the plant and so reduce risk of mold developing. I would definitely hold off on the rhizotonic for a while too - as you have now got the roots developing healthily, you want to focus the plants' energies on developing leaves for a bit.

My babies are showing a bit of nitrogen deficiency at the moment 'cos I have been experimenting with a very low nutrient grow in small pots, with a view to keeping the plants small in stature - they are KC33 which have a habit of growing into (highly visible) 10ft trees. Anyway, have just put them in to the dark for 36 hours prior to switching to a 12/12. Am kicking off the flowering in this way before transplanting to large pots outside in a couple of weeks' time - aiming for mid-October bonanza! We shall see - it should be an interesting experiment.

At the same time as I plant out the KC33 I will be bringing in some cuttings taken from some Caramella plants (Homgrownfantaseeds) that are just starting to flower outside. Will run these off in a SOG indoors for harvest mid November. So...keep your fingers crossed for my cuttings to take root speedily and happlily!

well, for an update on the clones, and my still unchopped flowering plants...

I transplanted all of my clones. I'd say about 50 percent rooted and were transplanted, and I'd say 2/3'rds of them will survive, maybe more.

Some had roots busting out of the plugs real healthy looking, lots of them, and others only had one root or so busted out.

They are all REALLY small, I realize now most folks take clones a bit larger. My largest one has a leaf about one inch wide.

My plants are now developing budsites. Clusters of little white hairs. There are lots of shoots now, the plants are like I said, mushrooms.

Tons of bushy growth tons of nodes with budsites, all reaching for the light. Again most of the growth is within the top foot, but sooo dense.

So tomorrow I go to dig holes.

The largest most bushy plants will go outside. Two at first, MAYBE three, but likely just two.

Tomorrow I am also hoping to control the growth.

I am worried that I have let them go too long, as they are starting to bud already.

Is it normal to develop budsites so fast? It hasn't even been 2 full weeks of 12/12 yet.

I'm going to try and break in half instead of cut them, worst case I lose the growth I was going to lose anyways if I cut them. It's a last ditch attempt to save all those beautiful bud nodes.

They are growing fast, I tied all the nodes close to the light back a bit, and literally 24 hours later new nodes had beefied up bigger (budsite/leaf etc) and were up towards the light, almost like I hadn't tied anything back at all.

So I tied back again, and on the real unruly side of the room, I broke stems back.

I'm surprised at how fast the sites grow, the number of hairs seem to double or more in 24 hours.

Regardless, now that the plants have budsites, what about clones?

If I want to take a clone, should I pick off the little hair cluster, or just leave it?

Will it be likely to hermie?

I mean, if I don't pick it off, I'm taking that budsite and throwing it under 12/12. At the same time, I don't know if picking it off does anything, if not more harm than good.

Any help with my questions is appreciated.

I've been feeding them a bit heavier, a good bit, and they haven't burned, thinking that should help some of the lower growth.

Regardless, should have news tomorrow.

It is exciting, it changes everything once you see the budsites.

I even took a bit that had been burned by the light, and popped it in the oven and smoked it.

It wasn't much at all, enough for one solid hit, but it got me a decent bit stoned, which suprised me, and got me really excited for what's to come!

To sum it all up question wise:

#1. Is it normal for me to be seeing budsites with lots of hairs forming about 10 days into 12/12?

#2. Can clones have budsites on them? Should I pick them off? It's still OK to throw them under 24/0 til they root, veg for a while, then hit 12/12?

#3. Now that the plants have budsites, will they freak out if/when they get chopped off when/if I cut down to size? IE the plant isn't dead set on not growing new nodes or anything, right? I can still chop and have the plant regrow a shitton of growth and then bud as though nothing happened, all under 12/12? As long as I leave healthy shoots on the plant, right?

#4. I guess two of my questions center around the appearance of budsites, and I'm wondering if the appearance of budsites is of any real significance, marks any "point of no return", a real "marker" on the roadmap from seed to bud, or is a useful piece of information in any real decision making whatsoever, or not. IE has anything changed now that I see budsites, nute changes, ability to trim back, clone, etc etc etc.

well, I've dug one hole, and I'm ready to drop a plant or two outdoors, just need a good watering system for them now, as I dug 4 ft deep and didn't hit any ground moisture or water, and it's a south facing slope with completely direct sunlight and no real rain, though temps stay in the 70's to 80's most times, sometimes 60's, and rarely 90's.

I'm thinking a large resevoir (ie trash bin) that I could refill every two weeks would work well, as the spot is far away, gas is expensive, etc. Just a nice wick system for each plant.

I don't mind bringing 20 gallons+ out every two weeks. If anyone has any advice on that front let me know, and check out my outdoor thread here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=96559

Also want to know if using water crystals are a good idea, how granular or fine I should get them, and how many pounds per hole I should use? Hole is 4 ft deep by 3 ft long by 1.5 ft wide or so. Native dirt was real tan brown and sandy, so I filled the hole with 1.5 bags of canna coco coir, 2 bags of organic dirt, and tossed my dry organic ferts in and stirred the whole thing up with 10 gallons of water.

With that environment I reckon you are going to need some sort of reservoir as it does sound like it will dry out quickly... I haven't grown in that sort of place - we face the opposite problem: rain, more rain and rain with the temps in the 70s and the sun shines sometimes!... God i wish I lived in spain... anyway.. hope you get some useful responses to your other thread. The only advise I can offer is: get some camo for your reservoir. From a distance plants look like plants and shouldn't attract much attention. A bin suddenly appearing somewhere might though catch someone's eye.

Crystals - I'd simply follow the instructions on the packet. if you distribute them more thickly deeper in the soil (well, at least 1ft under anyway) they will be more effective as (I read) that the roots from weed collect nutes from nearer the surface and water from deeper down. I don't know the science behind this but I haven't seen it disputed yet.

How are you indoors plants going?

#1. Is it normal for me to be seeing budsites with lots of hairs forming about 10 days into 12/12?

It's quick but I cant think why this would be a problem.. other people may have an idea. Mostly people have the opposite issue... waiting for ages for the little buggers to actually start flowering!

#2. Can clones have budsites on them? Should I pick them off? It's still OK to throw them under 24/0 til they root, veg for a while, then hit 12/12?

Yes they can and yes this is fine. Dont pick off the hairs, just leave them to wither away (at least, that's what I have always done). I have rooted cuttings with hairs on them many times. They may take a little while longer to re-veg before they start growing (they will start to send out leaves consisting of a single leaflet, probably) and have a slow start but that's fine and you will soon have happy little clones ready for proper vegging.

#3. Now that the plants have budsites, will they freak out if/when they get chopped off when/if I cut down to size? IE the plant isn't dead set on not growing new nodes or anything, right? I can still chop and have the plant regrow a shitton of growth and then bud as though nothing happened, all under 12/12? As long as I leave healthy shoots on the plant, right?

Hard to say and I'd like to hear what other people have to say about this. If you really stress them out it can induce hermaphrodicity, though not necessarily for ever, maybe just in the first phases of flowering. You would be advised to pick off any male flowers if they appear. IMO if you cut back the plants early enough in flowering it should not make a huge difference to the bud sites and as you say, they will carry on pretty much regardless, though it will almost certainly delay harvest a bit. Turn the problem on its head though - if you dont cut back, you wont have enough space to harvest anyway, so you dont have much too lose (or much choice) though, right?

#4. I guess two of my questions center around the appearance of budsites, and I'm wondering if the appearance of budsites is of any real significance, marks any "point of no return", a real "marker" on the roadmap from seed to bud, or is a useful piece of information in any real decision making whatsoever, or not. IE has anything changed now that I see budsites, nute changes, ability to trim back, clone, etc etc etc.

I guess it depends on how far into flowering you have got. I dont see that anything has changed beyond the fact that you are in flowering (with all that entails). It's certainly not a point of no return as you could re-veg, though I am not sure why you would want to. If you reckon you have created enough space through the breaking (whic I am a bit nervous about but...), bending and chopping and the plants are still alive and they are starting to flower, I would kick back and crack open a beer and be happy that things are on the right track!

I'm worried now, alot of lower leaves have been drying up and dying.

I can't tell why, alot of the leaves are still green, and the tops aren't looking droopy, so I don't think it's underwatering, I'm at a loss.

Maybe they are underfed, I dunno.

I know leaves die off in flower, but this is a TON.

You sure they are draining properly and/or have enough space for the roots?