My canopy is blocking out alot of light below, can I suppliment? what with?

So I'm running 2x 400 watt CMH's in super sun 2's in a 6.5 ft by 2.5 ft by 5.5 ft tall room.

I've got about 10 plants in there, some doubled up in 6 gallon pots.

The canopy on one side is so jam packed up top, that hardly any light gets below, the lower growth is suffering, it tends to die off, or stretch crazy to find an opening in the canopy.

I'm doing what I can with training, I'll break stems gently on upper growth, so that the growth is out of the way for light to come down further. They seem to recover fine from the break, as long as it's not too heavy of a break.

I'm noticing where the stem wasn't as soft, and I really tried to bend/break the stem back and forth (because it wouldn't really bend/break), the stem has become real woody, and growth above seems to be suffering, but this is minor.

My MAJOR question is this:

Surely there is some way to supplement the lighting below?

I'm thinking something on the sides of my room.

Maybe there's something that can be done?

I was thinking some 12" by 12" red LED panels.

Or am I SOL unless I remove some plants from the grow room?

I'm certain that the light would penetrate very well sideways.

So what can I do?

I'm still in veg, running 24/0, we have 3 month old plants, I'm still working on sealing up my room against light leaks, I've been really busy with work and family.

But it should be sealed up soon to make the switch to 12/12.

Anyways, what do you guys think I should do? Anything I can do about the lighting situation?

The 400 watt CMH's just don't penetrate well past a heavy canopy.

So LEDs? Screw in bulbs like the one seen here? http://www.hidhut.com/catalog/led-f....html?osCsid=fd6bc40f35fbfb23806fc08269553882

660nm vs. 625nm, the 660 costs twice as much, is it twice as good? I'm thinking I could do the screw in bulbs relatively easily, just by mounting cheapo medium sockets around the lower walls of my grow room.

But how effective is this going to be? If it at least pays for itself (IE 1 $30 bulb yields an extra 2-3 grams, or 1 $15 bulb yields an extra 1-2 grams) I'm all for doing it.

I'm thinking 8 bulbs would be about all I could fit, maybe I could do a few more, but I don't want to waste money, I just want to help light get down below, as there is probably 3+ feet of growth below the canopy not getting much light at all.

When it comes time to flower, I don't want to get crap results because of lighting issues.

I know my growspace is too packed, but I'm hoping adding lighting down below can help that.

So what do you all think?

To supplement, or to not?

There are some threads here on led panels, but you would probably be better off looking at scrog threads. If your plants are bushy now, after the stretch they could very possibly be way to big for your cab. I have a 3'x6'x5.5' tall cab with 2x600 watts and I've found that a scrog provides the best results.

JMO

PC

I use cfls to supplement my lower branches. i also use a 400w cmh i only have one though

Yo Bro just how big are these 3 month old plants? Just asking because you know they will get 2/3rds larger during bloom(aprox) I think you should've taken some cuttings to thin them out and get into bloom asap!
Indoors lite only penetrates well down to 3 feet so you be growing popsicle type plants. Long stems with (aprox) 3 foot of buds! I would add another 600 and LST them while bloom starts. If you don't add lite you should trim all, I repeat all undergrowth, as it won't add to much more than small popcorn type buds, taking grow energy away from colas.

this is why i sog.....

vegging other then moms is a waste of time money and space.........

i say clone the plants down and flower the cuts...

I am with 00420 here, I'm afraid. Flower off your big plants so you know which your females are, clone them and start again with a SOG.

I have to say, mate, "2x 400 watt CMH's in super sun 2's in a 6.5 ft by 2.5 ft by 5.5 ft tall room" that's not efficient. I used to grow in a space that size and used one 400w HPS only, with great results. With a space that shape (long and thin), I'd bring in a light rail to even up the distribution of the light over your plants, it will help you to avoid the uneven growth you refer to and save you a packet on electricity (not to mention reducing your heat which will be a problem for you in that space with those lamps).

Having read some of the advice on this site about micro grows, try "Dr Bud for Dummy's" [sic]

If you are determined to carry on with your plants as they are:
1. flower them now
2. trim off the lower third of the branches when the flowers begin to show, to maximise space and light
3 if you want to invest in a lamp for lower down, go out and buy a cheap CFL, like an envirolight. They are inexpensive to buy and use and are safe and reliable. I wouldn't bother though.
4. Take some clones and set up a mother/clone rig ASAP so you can replace your current jungle with something more manageable after harvest. Spend the cash you save from not buying LEDs and buy a good CFL etc for a mother/clone rig instead.
5. If you want to continue with growing bigger plants rather than the SOG method (as some prefer to do), carefully prune off the tops of the plants at the third internode (3 sets of branches) - probably after about 10 days into the veg stage - and keep growing the plants until they are 21-28 days old OR until they fill 70% of your grow space (floor area). Then put them in 12/12. You say your room is only 5.5ft tall though so I would recommend you SOG instead.

Keep it simple, mate!

best of luck with your project!

Im with 00420 too. I prefer SOG style, its more efficient IMHO.

But if you like to grow big trees, its OK. Nothing wrong with it.

Easier way to give supplementary lighting to low areas is by hanging CFL between the plants. This vertical unreflectorized lighting is very effective, and compensate for the lower CFL's efficiency.

Of course, LED panels are the best way to add light to low areas because they dont break and dont burn plants in contact (disadvantages of CFLs). Having a wide spectrum from top, you dont need to worry about their spectrum. You can use red panels, wich are cheaper and more effective.

The easier way to implement them is with long and thin panels (about 30x2cm, for example (~14x1"). There are lots of them very cheap working directly from a 12VDC power supply (old computer ones are great for this). You can hang as many of this modules between plants as you want, so you can use mostly red panels and some blue and/or white ones. This setups arnt pricey at all.

LED bulbs are mostly directional, so they are far for being ideal for IntraCanopy lighting and their duration is way lower than panels, wich may be cooled way easily (just attaching an aluminiun sheet to the back).

Happy growing

well, let me go into a bit more detail,

all the plants are sexed female, and I have cut them back a tad, and will continue to cut them back as needed over the stretch, though I train/break/bend stems where possible instead of chopping off.

I'm convinced that next grow will be waaaaay different.

I'm not even going to use a single one of these plants as clones.

I've got several strains in the cab now, Hashberry, Big Bang, Safari Mix (not really 1 strain), and Satori.

I've pretty much cleared out my veg cab, and will likely grow some hashberry this next time around.

I'm thinking about buying 30 seeds or so, and simply keeping 15 females in 2 gals or something, and flowering all of them.

Currently the plants in my "flowering room" (which is still in 24/0 veg) are too big for how closely packed together they are.

I really underestimated how small my room was, and just went with "50 watts per sq ft" as my lighting.

So I'm hoping to get what I can out of this run, learn as much as I can, and then switch to one single strain that I can dial in.

For a first grow, I did things the hard way, and have learned.

If anyone has a strain recommendation other than hashberry, by all means throw it out there, but for me, it seemed to have the most robust growth, easier to dial in with the nutes, and the most friendly to grow.

So I'm thinking that 30 seedlings in my slightly smaller veg cab would do fine.

Start them soon, and then simply move them in after the harvest.

I have allowed my plants to become too large, and the canopy is so full that the growth is super stocky and bushy up top, but literally starting to die off down below.

my next grow space will be far different.

Far more space per plant, whether that means more space, or less plants.

Also I'm thinking that if I do attempt anything larger than 600 watts, like I am now, I need to have a dedicated room, not just a cab or two built inside a small room.

It'll also likely be a hydro setup.

I've been loving the coco coir, I think that has really helped the growth, and may be the only thing that gives me a halfway decent yield in the end.

I'm thinking automated will really be where it's at, no more taking the plants out to the shower so I can let them drain when I water.

I'm not sure what all hydro setups are out there, but that's what I'll do when I build my next setup.

This grow is my first, and I'll likely do another 2-3 harvests before stripping it down early next year.

Hey 1love

No worries, mate. My first crop (back in 1994) hmmm didn't go so well either and it sounds like you are preparing well for your second. I hope you dont mind me adding some reflections on what you have written and I hope you will/have found what I say useful.

1. Lights - You dont need any more wattage for your space and seeing as you are just starting out, I'd keep it small and simple. Do have a look at light rails to make more effective use of the wattage you use. Invest in good bulbs and reflectors - there's alot of debate on lighting but most people would agree that for now HPS are the best value and best light for flowering under. 50 watts per sq ft is fine - the trick is to get it evenly distributed and keep the lamps as close to the plants as possible without burning them (which is why fans are useful and why a light rail will save you money and effort).

2. If you are finding keeping on top of the watering difficult, go hydro. I started growing using the entry-level NFT tables and I found them very easy to use and no hassle at all. They are usually dead cheap too. All hydro options have different strengths and weaknesses and all growers have their favourites but, for a novice grower, I can't recommend a simple NFT rig highly enough. I have never grown using coco but I have used slabs and drippers as well as NFT - drippers and trays can be used with coco. This is a great method in many ways but it tends to use up more space vertically (so not good if you are growing in a space with low ceilings) and I found managing the drippers to be a bit of a pain (they tend to spring out of the slabs/coco and spray water everywhere! the drippers block up quite easily too).

3. Bending/breaking/pruning etc. Do what you must. Like badmf says, your plants are likely to grow by 2/3rds from when you switch to 12/12. So measure the space between the top of the pots and the highest point you can grow your plants to under the lamps without them burning. If I understand what you wrote about your space properly, you have about 6ft headroom. I guess 1 ft will be plant pots and 18 inches will be lamps, reflectors and headroom for heat. That only leaves you with 3.5 ft so your plants should be 18inches high at most when you put them under 12/12. If they are taller, prune them right back to 14 inches and wait 5 days before you put them into flower. Warning!: they may not take the shock, so....

4. clones. I know you say you dont want to clone your current palnts but dont be too hasty to dismiss this option, especially as you say you are growing hashberry and may want to continue with it. It would be really easy for you to take clones when you prune back your plants (see above) and root them while you wait for the plants to show their true colours. Having some mother plants grown (from these cuttings) ready for you to clone from at the end of your current harvest could mean that you are ready to put new rooted clones in to your flowering rig the same day that you harvest, meaning a nice fat harvest only 9-10 weeks after your first. If you wait and do seeds, you will still have to get over the issues of plants of different heights, some male, some runts, some queens, and it WILL take you longer and be more hassle. You can always plant some new seeds while you are growing out your clones so you can change stock AND take advantage of a guaranteed harvest, all within a few months.

5. seeds. Hashberry isn't all that easy to grow because it stretches alot in flowering (as you are about to find out). it is great puff but if you have any problems with your first crop, I'd encourage you to try something really easy, if less fashionable. For easy grows I totally rate some of sensi seeds' strains. I know alot of people dont like sensi as a company but they have very good genetics, I promise you. Their easiest strains are the old ones: shiva and superskunk are a doddle (you will get better yields from the superskunk). I am sure people will recommend other companies and strains but those would be my picks for an easy crop. If it has "Haze" in the title, forget it for now.

Keep it up! Please ask if you have any questions about my tips, am always happy to help

Pip-pip!

much thanks for that post, hit alot of nails right on the head.

The space constraints height wise are exact, between pots, and reflectors, that's about the space I have.

I really didn't get it until I was looking at flipping to 12/12, and realized that there was just no space for a stretch.

The largest of my plants currently are 2.5 gallon square pots, but that will change eventually I'm sure.

I'm really looking for that plant that has the high I want, and can be easily grown in the space I have, while maintaining a respectable yield for a new grower.

The haze x skunk plant I chopped back to 1 ft, and it was such a bushmaster it wasn't even funny, soooo much leaf on her I cut off. I just want to get some bud off of this one, so I can try what a haze feels like in high. I have promised myself not to let it get outta control.

I guess my main question is what genetics should I go with to find that truly valuable (for me) clone.

Feel free to check out my other thread in the strain forum http://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=2

I'm reluctant to prune too too heavily, only because when I did it to the haze, it still grows quickly, but drinks much less water, which to me, means that it is using less of it's roots, which may be wrong.

I just don't want to waste all of that extra root growth I have, and between their age, and the coco+additives I've used, I expect there is quite a bit.

I want to provide tons of energy going into flowering to make buds.

So should I cut back that much? Given what's going on with the canopy, most of the robust leaf growth is high up, and thus to cut all of that off, it doesn't leave alot of leaf left.

A pleasure. So, a "headline thought" and then some options...

Headline thought: Is it realistic for you to think that you will be able to harvest your plants in the current space? If we say your plants will double in height from the time you put them into 12/12 do you have space (vertically)?

If yes - stick to bending, and struggle on with this harvest. I really think you should try cloning these for next time but I understand if you want to try new stock from seeds (variety is the spice of life and all that).

If not - and don't kid yourself that you can muddle on through if you dont have at least that amount of space because, I'm sorry to say, that I dont think you will be able to - you have some tough choices to make and I can only offer three solutions:

1. Pruning down to 14inches as I suggested above - you're absolutely right to be worried that this could kill your plants, especially if they are already thinning below the canopy. Pruning like this really could kill your plants but it could also give you the best harvest. I reckon it's about a 60% kill/40% save risk. The upside is that you will save time and preserve your rootmass. You are right to want to keep the root mass because it has alot of influence on final harvest size (The flip side is that more root space tends to create more height).

2. Bending: How far are you into flowering? Have the plants shown their sex yet or are you still waiting? - If you are still waiting for them to show, you will have the opportunity to create more space when you pull out the males. You can use this space to create headroom by bending the girls. You mentioned before that you are already doing some bending, which is good because it takes a while to get this right. Even if you have already pulled out your males, bending is the best option if you are worried about severe pruning. You will just have to check on your plants everyday without fail to keep them back from the lamp and from the resulting burning/scorching. I grew a Keralaxskunkxhaze some years back that responded better to being bent than growing straight. Amazing puff too... sorry, I digress...

3. Make the best of a tricky situation - take clones when you know who the girls are and replant with a SOG. It doesn't matter hugely if you dont know by the time you have rooted the clones which the best plants are if you take lots of cuttings from each of your females and SOG them at 25 plants per sq metre, putting them into 12/12 when they are 3 or 4 inches high. As these clones flower, you will soon be able to spot the runts and pull them out, leaving you with a nice tidy garden.

btw- 2.5 gallon square pots are ideal, dont worry about that. IF you shift to SOG for your next harvest and dont want to go hydro, go down to one gallon pots. If you go hydro, most styles dont use pots as such (ebb and flow/flood and drain do, obviously). this is another reason why NFT would be so good for you because you simply cover the NFT "shelf" in spreader mat and put 3" rockwool cubes with your plants in on top - saves lots of space, height wise.

HazexSkunk - lovely, smoked some Uk grown Homegrownfantaseeds skunkxhaze back in 1993! It is another tall girl though and yes, can be tricky becuase of the haze influence.

I will have a look at your other post but for now I would stick with my previous recommendations of sensi's super or shiva skunks. I hear great things about other shorter strains like BC Godbud but I gather it can be very tricky to grow. One possibility is Aurora Borealis from Flying Dutchmen. It's very short, reputedly easy to grow and quick. I haven't grow it though so it doesn't come with a "personal" recommendation (though Flying Dutchmen do, fabulous seedbank).

Keep the questions coming!

Well, my other plants are in 5-6 gal pots, but some have 2 plants in one pot.

They are currently already pushed up against the reflector glass with a few plants, and all sexed, but still in veg.

I've chopped the main stalks back about 2 weeks ago on all of the plants.

They just grow back so fast.

So maybe I should make a major chop?

I've got safari mix, big bang, mandala #1 (much younger), haze x skunk, satori, and hashberry. Most plants I have 1-2 of.

So that's the story.

Next run I'm thinking about running 100% hashberry.

Not sure if that's the best choice or not, but it's what seems best to me right now.

well, I've decided that in the future, smaller plants are going to be the way to go.

Thus I'm looking for any and all strain suggestions, please feel free to visit my thread in the strain guide here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=1809706#post1809706

I'm wanting something that will be easily maintained/grown with my short ceiling, and limited space.

Also a high that is low anxiety/calming, mentally clear/lightly stimulating, not "put you to sleep" knockout couchlock stuff.

Easy to grow in my space, uniform nutrient needs, stable genetically, and easy to grow for a new grower.

I'm going to be growing in coco if that makes a difference. Canna A/B nutes, PK 13/14 during flowering.

For these plants, I'm likely going to chop them waaaaaay back today and flip to 12/12.

I've got some humidity domes and rapid rooter plugs, and some clonex, so I'll try making some clones. I might also mist them with a water/light rhizotonic mix, PH'd to 6.0

Any advice is appreciated.

Am really glad you have chosen to make some clones - it will serve you well in the long run. I think you are making the right choices, even if it means some pain in the short-term.

Careful with your misting: some people maintain that it promote fungal growth.

For making the cut, I take off a length of branch say 6 inches long and then take the actual clone/cutting that I want to root with the knife and branch under water, to stop air bubbles getting into the stem. From making the cut you want to get the clone into the clonex as quick as a flash (for the same air bubble reason) and rapidly into a sealed, humid environment (so they dont dry out). I would take as many clones as you can as quite alot wont survive.

Things that will improve your rate of success are:
ensuring that you have pH adjusted the water to pH6
being gentle withthe cuttings , so as not to bruise or crush the stems
Being generous with the clonex dip, to protect the cut end of the clone
keeping the cuttings in a humid environment with consistent temperature and light until they are properly rooted.

It will probably take you about 10 days from taking the cutttngs to having rooted clones, though some plants root very much more quickly and others take longer.

They should go under as bright a light as possible as soon as they are rooted.

I have put some comments on strains in your other thread but if you want : "a high that is low anxiety/calming, mentally clear/lightly stimulating, not "put you to sleep" knockout couchlock stuff" - I keep coming back to it but sensi's superskunk will do the job, is a good head/body balance. Actually Flying Dutchmen's Original Skunk #1 would also be an excellent choice but it can be tallish. It's difficult to get a smoke that is both calming and stimulating as, classically, it's the sativa influence that makes weed stimulating but it also IMHO is what can make things anxiety inducing. Another reason to go for a mixed indica/sativa.

the clones I took aren't looking so hot, I keep them misted, but only a few are still looking perky as opposed to droopy.

They are in a humidity dome with vents (closed the vents), and I spray them with a PH'd mix of rhizotonic and water 2-3x daily.

I might go out and invest in a "cloner machine" with the spray nozzels.

The GH root plugs concern me because they just have the hole the stem slides into, and it doesn't persay provide the best contact with the stem, and I feel like the stem gets damaged no matter what when you put it into the hole.

I will start the underwater cut deal, I've heard this before.

I'm also going to have to cut my plants waaaaay back soon, I've been in 12/12 for 4 days now, and some are pushed right up against the reflector glass.

Hi 1love

dont worry, taking clones is an art and, as such, takes a while to get on top of. I'm not sure you need all this fancy gear, if I'm, honest. I have always done clones in 1inch rockwool plugs that have been pre-soaked in pH adjusted water with a very mild nutrient load. I take the clones (as described before, underwater, clonex etc) and put them straight into the rockwool then pop 'em in a simple garden centre propagator, with all the vents shut. I mist maybe once a day. So long as the propagator is tightly shut, the atmosphere within wont dry out that much in 24 hours.

If you are misting 2-3x a day, what you are probably doing is letting out the nice humid air and introducing dry air when you mist. So, you are getting the cuttings wet, but that isn't the objective ; you should be trying to create a humid atmosphere (so the cuttings dont dry out), not wet plants. Try cutting back the misting to no more than once a day and check that the clones are in a fairly well sealed space.

Your main room: Cut your plants back asap and I will keep my finger and toes crossed for you. You will know inside a week if they are going to thrive or survive. My bet is that some will die but the stronger plants will survive, though they may need extra TLC for a while.

Dont waste any growing tips when you cut back your plants, you should aim to make cuttings from them all (or at least as many as you can fit into a propagator/your clone space) - it's good practise (if boring) and from all the cuttings you root you will be able to pick a bunch that are robust, thriving and at a similar stage of development for taking further. Any you discard you can sneak out and plant guerrilla style in a local woodland or something (just dont get caught!)

Dont lose hope, my friend, you will be rewarded for all you efforts in the end.

Well, I've decided to drop a few plants outdoors.

A few of the ones in my flowering room will go outside, as I've just got too many of them in there, and it will likely hurt my yields in that room.

So I'm thinking if I drop 2-3 plants outside, I may get as much as 1lb per outdoor plant, or at least 3-4 oz.

They are so robust at the top, they are huge, so many nodes, so much growth, I'm really hopeful.

So the plan is to go out to a spot, and dig some holes.

I'm not sure what to do for nutes, but I'm thinking about just grabbing some dry organic flowering nute mix and mixing it in with the dirt, sprinkling some on top, and just dropping the plants in there.

If we bag the plants with very large garbage/yard waste bags, they should be OK to transport to the spot pot and all intact.

From there I don't really have the time to water them every day, but I can make it out with a bunch of water weekly at least, and if I plant deep, they should be able to get moisture out of the ground even without rain, right?

So we'll see what happens.

Regardless, I'm thinking on the clone front to get a 60 site machine cloner, maybe EZ clone.

Then we'll go ahead and take a bunch of clones when I cut the plants back.

I'm about 1 week into 12/12 with the plants, and we'll see how they do after cutting them back.

Regardless, clearing out some of the closet should make much more space.

How many feet of headroom do you think I'll need in order to make it through to harvest?

If I chop to a uniform height, I should be able to drop the lights down a bit, and keep vertical growth down a tad.

However it is going to take alot out of the plants.

Already on 12/12 they are using MUCH less water, I don't know if that's just cause my fan isn't running as often as well as the lights, or what.

Since all the growth is at the top, I'm a bit worried about what'll happen when I remove all of it, but as long as I leave "something" healthy looking on the plant, it should recover no?

Finally, will cutting them back alter my flowering length? IE will I end up flowering them for longer so that the plants can recover and beef back up?

Or do I have 60-70 days period, and whatever growth they do within that is what I get?

Anyways, I'm thinking 2-3 plants removed will really help. If the transplants go well, I might take a few more outside.

Hi man. All your plans for outdoors seem very sensible - just dont get caught planting them out!! Camouflage while transporting - absolutely, tie them up and put them in bags as you propose.

If you plant them out now you should get at least 3 or 4 ounces outside in October, provided the plants like the environment.

As far as watering is concerned, you can buy these crystals in garden centres that are designed for use in hanging baskets and the like - they soak up loads of water and release it slowly (by osmosis, I am guessing) into the soil. They cost nothing and will give you a buffer of a few extra days between waterings. Worth spending a few bucks anyway. As regards nutes, I would top dress with some rich compost, worm castings, bat guano, whatever you can find. I am no expert on outdoor grows so I recommend you do some more research. However, I will say that if you are planting them out during the flowering stage, you probably dont need to do much in terms of fertilising, as the flavours etc tend to be better if nutes are lightly applied in the flowering stage. On reflection, I think your organic flowering nute mix will be enough.

re: How much headroom do you need? - they will probably finish at a little over twice the height they are whn you cut them back. So , if you cut them back to 14 inches high, you should have enough room. You can still use bending techniques after you cut them back to keep the height down.

So long as you leave something healty on the plants they should survive, yes (but I can't guarantee it - living things are unpredictable). Make sure you leave on some growing tips though, not just leaves. There will probably be some short, under-developed branches low down on the plants that aren't getting much light now, you want to leave on as many of those below the 14 inch height as possible, at least for now. These will develop into stems over the week or two after you cut back. Eventually, with a bit of luck, they will form colas of bud.

Don't delay too long in cutting them back if you are already in flower. Cutting them back will probably extend your flowering period for about a week as the plants will go in to shock when you cut them back. There's a risk too that it will stress them into being hermaphroditic for a while so you will have to keep and eye out for any rogue male flowers and pick them off if you see any forming. Provided you nurse the plants carefully over the month after cutting them back, many should survive and go on to produce good stuff for you.

well, I'll drop a few outside and then see what I can chop, that way I can make clones, and know what I'm dealing with space wise, and of course how many I need to chop.

Most of the plants look like a mushroom, all the growth is towards the top foot and pretty wide, not much below that, but still something.

Hopefully I can make it happen!

The haze I chopped waaaaaay back is slowly/quickly coming back over the last 2 weeks, bushing out a tad, and reaching for the light.

All the other plants have been cut back before about 6-12 inches about 2 weeks ago, which really caused them to bush out.

Now of course I'll just have to make do, and luckily not every plant is that tall.