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Dear Breeders: It isn't possible to cross three plants together.

beta

beta

Active member
Veteran
There sure are a lot of 'breeders' out there who don't understand that it's impossible to cross 3 cultivars together.

Stop listing lineages like this:

Blue Dream x Jack Herer x Sour Bubble

...and start listing them like this with parenthesis around the parent that is a hybrid of two cultivars:

(Blue Dream x Jack Herer) x Sour Bubble

If your cross has more than two parents, you have no idea what you're doing and honestly have no business calling yourself a 'breeder'.

While I'm at it with things that grind my gears - As per botanical naming standards, the pistil in the cross ALWAYS comes first and the pollen donor ALWAYS comes second. Pistil x Pollen. ALWAYS.

This has been a public service announcement.
 
Fuel

Fuel

Active member
I put the name of the male first, simply because it's way easier to sort the lines visually this way in a database. It don't affect the methodology at all.

On marketing side, most of the time elusive pedigrees are there for a reason :

- the pedigree is not known and is an hypothesis
- the pedigree is considered as a recipe to don't share (yeah it's stupid ...)
- hyped names drop for search engines
- in general, you can't never see the grow logs of the parents in the catalog of the "genetic banks" (let's dream one second). I prefer that 1000 times (full track of the P1) than any single information on the pedigree on which you can't rely generally today.

This strain is made from : Blue Dream, Jack Herer and Sour Bubble
Click to expand...
I can accept that. And worse, like this one also :

This strain is made from : area 51 secret, enigma code and alien's gift
Click to expand...


But only if i can see the pollen donor and the host of this pollen from the seedling stage to the ripe state. I known my classics, i don't need fairy tales to recognize a jack herer, a blueberry, a bubble gum and a SD.
 
Elmer Bud

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
Fuel said:
I put the name of the male first, simply because it's way easier to sort the lines visually this way in a database. It don't affect the methodology at all.

On marketing side, most of the time elusive pedigrees are there for a reason :

- the pedigree is not known and is an hypothesis
- the pedigree is considered as a recipe to don't share (yeah it's stupid ...)
- hyped names drop for search engines
- in general, you can't never see the grow logs of the parents in the catalog of the "genetic banks" (let's dream one second). I prefer that 1000 times (full track of the P1) than any single information on the pedigree on which you can't rely generally today.


I can accept that. And worse, like this one also :




But only if i can see the pollen donor and the host of this pollen from the seedling stage to the ripe state. I known my classics, i don't need fairy tales to recognize a jack herer, a blueberry, a bubble gum and a SD.
Click to expand...

G `day F

Traditional is females 1st .
Confusing when some one breaks the convention .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 
beta

beta

Active member
Veteran
Fuel said:
I put the name of the male first, simply because it's way easier to sort the lines visually this way in a database. It don't affect the methodology at all.
Click to expand...

Many traits are sex-linked so this can have a significant impact on your breeding methodology. We all should be speaking the same language and using the same set of standards if we have any intention of working with each other. There is already a clear standard and that standard puts pistil first, pollen second.

Fuel said:
This strain is made from : Blue Dream, Jack Herer and Sour Bubble. I can accept that
Click to expand...

I'm not a big fan of this either - It gives no indication of the percentage of parentage. Each cultivar cannot contribute 33% of the genetic material - One cultivar contributes 50% and the other two contribute at 25% each. Unless you're using parenthesis, there's no way to tell which parent contributes the lions share of genetic material, which will have a big impact on the type of phenotypes you'll see.
 
smilley

smilley

Well-known member
Veteran
My bad, I've always put the pollen donor first in every cross I've made. I'll correct this in future but I'm sure I'm not the only unschooled closet breeder out there. As I only cross polyhybrids the offspring tend to be everything from soup to nuts.
 
Fuel

Fuel

Active member
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Many traits are sex-linked so this can have a significant impact on your breeding methodology. We all should be speaking the same language and using the same set of standards if we have any intention of working with each other. There is already a clear standard and that standard puts pistil first, pollen second.
Click to expand...
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I agree with you, to the point to maintain lines than are sexually dedicated in my genpool. Whats the link with it lol
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On methodology, it don't change anything but my listings (mostly filled with parralel inbred lines).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I rather prefer to see a :
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]than a
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#2 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#4 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#6 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When you're used to multiply dominance tests, trust me it avoid a lot of headache when you come back at it months later.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Add to it than i'm using another system of notation to "sex" the name directly. "even" number are females and "uneven" numbers are males. Not rocket science you see, but you can easily extrapolate the help it can be when you juggle with a bunch of plants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Add a QR code to manage by living specimen, and it's enough to fill your head all day long. A productive breeding facility is simply a slavery, everything than can light your charge and help you to treat more plants per hour is welcome trust me.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aside these considerations, "feminized"(sic) seeds represent today the majority of the wholesales, good luck to edict a standart like that btw ^^ You allready have to fight to be sure than correct informations on the lines are writed on the marketing generally, when it's possible, or not simply renamed in hurry to catch the uneducated grower on a trend.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unless you're using parenthesis, there's no way to tell which parent contributes the lions share of genetic material, which will have a big impact on the type of phenotypes you'll see.[/FONT][/FONT]
Click to expand...



You're too idealistic, man. I say that with respect, don't get me wrong.


Let's take an example, and standardized :


Jack Herer x (Blue Dream x Sour Bubble)


Thinking than the Jack Herer female will be 50% of the hybrid only by the notation is something faithful imo. Alleles don't work this way unfortunately, specially with four bloods well known to don't be stable at all lol



This female can be heterozygous as fck in its main traits and pass near nothing ... and choosed specially for that in bonus. There is plenty of cases like that where it is dangerous to think in term of (supposed) absolute percentage.



It's like the "so garanteed" percentage of a BX program you can see theorized in loop since decades by dreamers. If it was really so magic, we will all smoke stabilized elite clones collections night and day ^^



You don't have many options in practice :



- asking the traceability of the parents to have a reference to select the offspring : good luck to obtain that lol, i known a couple of seedbank than can lost everything if ever each customers ask them the proof of their work on long term. And we are not speaking about the "well known greenhouses shots" with the same clone in background over 100 square meters, obviously dedicated to produce weed. But about a true traceability during all the creation of the line.



- asking the integration of a mendelian notation in the pedigree of the marketing : no one care, people no longer buy genetics but "seeds to smoke". Btw, only a very little number of persons will be able to evaluate this way the equilibrium of the line. All others will just see a weird equation than don't make sense for them. You will get only questions on the final product in practice.



- asking directly to the breeder himself/herself what's going on with this strain : easy, free and more reliable than anything else (if the breeder is decent). Any form of notation will never replace that. But, lets be rationnal one minute, it's only possible with private breeders close to their base.


Until i see the stoners changing their behavior from "consumers" to "connoisseur", like many others than i can't blame ... i will continue to don't give a fck. They known where to buy feminized hemp.
 
J

jaypopnseeds

Member
Fuel said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I agree with you, to the point to maintain lines than are sexually dedicated in my genpool. Whats the link with it lol
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On methodology, it don't change anything but my listings (mostly filled with parralel inbred lines).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I rather prefer to see a :
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]than a
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#2 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#4 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#6 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When you're used to multiply dominance tests, trust me it avoid a lot of headache when you come back at it months later.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Add to it than i'm using another system of notation to "sex" the name directly. "even" number are females and "uneven" numbers are males. Not rocket science you see, but you can easily extrapolate the help it can be when you juggle with a bunch of plants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Add a QR code to manage by living specimen, and it's enough to fill your head all day long. A productive breeding facility is simply a slavery, everything than can light your charge and help you to treat more plants per hour is welcome trust me.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aside these considerations, "feminized"(sic) seeds represent today the majority of the wholesales, good luck to edict a standart like that btw ^^ You allready have to fight to be sure than correct informations on the lines are writed on the marketing generally, when it's possible, or not simply renamed in hurry to catch the uneducated grower on a trend.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[/SIZE]


You're too idealistic, man. I say that with respect, don't get me wrong.


Let's take an example, and standardized :


Jack Herer x (Blue Dream x Sour Bubble)


Thinking than the Jack Herer female will be 50% of the hybrid only by the notation is something faithful imo. Alleles don't work this way unfortunately, specially with four bloods well known to don't be stable at all lol



This female can be heterozygous as fck in its main traits and pass near nothing ... and choosed specially for that in bonus. There is plenty of cases like that where it is dangerous to think in term of (supposed) absolute percentage.



It's like the "so garanteed" percentage of a BX program you can see theorized in loop since decades by dreamers. If it was really so magic, we will all smoke stabilized elite clones collections night and day ^^



You don't have many options in practice :



- asking the traceability of the parents to have a reference to select the offspring : good luck to obtain that lol, i known a couple of seedbank than can lost everything if ever each customers ask them the proof of their work on long term. And we are not speaking about the "well known greenhouses shots" with the same clone in background over 100 square meters, obviously dedicated to produce weed. But about a true traceability during all the creation of the line.



- asking the integration of a mendelian notation in the pedigree of the marketing : no one care, people no longer buy genetics but "seeds to smoke". Btw, only a very little number of persons will be able to evaluate this way the equilibrium of the line. All others will just see a weird equation than don't make sense for them. You will get only questions on the final product in practice.



- asking directly to the breeder himself/herself what's going on with this strain : easy, free and more reliable than anything else (if the breeder is decent). Any form of notation will never replace that. But, lets be rationnal one minute, it's only possible with private breeders close to their base.


Until i see the stoners changing their behavior from "consumers" to "connoisseur", like many others than i can't blame ... i will continue to don't give a fck. They known where to buy feminized hemp.
Click to expand...

Nobody gives a shit about your own personalized and needlessly complicated notation system. If you’re advertising your crosses, follow the standard notation so it accurately conveys what was produced. What took you multiple paragraphs and examples to explain, could’ve been narrowed down to a single line using normal breeding notations.

Also, the rest of your points made literally no sense at all. Coming from a background in genetics.
 
beta

beta

Active member
Veteran
All of this would make perfect sense if you were the only person in the world doing breeding and nobody in the future was ever going to carry on your work.

Whether or not your 'system' makes sense is irrelevant if it's contrary to the standardized system that real professionals are using. Every time you interact with anyone else you're giving them misleading information that won't make sense to anyone but you.

I'm glad it makes sense to you, but believe it or not there are other people and we all need to work together.

As for the rest of your comments, they boil down to "I don't give a shit about other people and what they're doing, and besides everyone else is doing it wrong so why should I do it right?". I don't find that compelling at all.

Fuel said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I agree with you, to the point to maintain lines than are sexually dedicated in my genpool. Whats the link with it lol
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On methodology, it don't change anything but my listings (mostly filled with parralel inbred lines).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I rather prefer to see a :
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#1 x JH#6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]than a
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#2 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#4 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JH#6 x JH#1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When you're used to multiply dominance tests, trust me it avoid a lot of headache when you come back at it months later.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Add to it than i'm using another system of notation to "sex" the name directly. "even" number are females and "uneven" numbers are males. Not rocket science you see, but you can easily extrapolate the help it can be when you juggle with a bunch of plants.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Add a QR code to manage by living specimen, and it's enough to fill your head all day long. A productive breeding facility is simply a slavery, everything than can light your charge and help you to treat more plants per hour is welcome trust me.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aside these considerations, "feminized"(sic) seeds represent today the majority of the wholesales, good luck to edict a standart like that btw ^^ You allready have to fight to be sure than correct informations on the lines are writed on the marketing generally, when it's possible, or not simply renamed in hurry to catch the uneducated grower on a trend.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[/SIZE]


You're too idealistic, man. I say that with respect, don't get me wrong.


Let's take an example, and standardized :


Jack Herer x (Blue Dream x Sour Bubble)


Thinking than the Jack Herer female will be 50% of the hybrid only by the notation is something faithful imo. Alleles don't work this way unfortunately, specially with four bloods well known to don't be stable at all lol



This female can be heterozygous as fck in its main traits and pass near nothing ... and choosed specially for that in bonus. There is plenty of cases like that where it is dangerous to think in term of (supposed) absolute percentage.



It's like the "so garanteed" percentage of a BX program you can see theorized in loop since decades by dreamers. If it was really so magic, we will all smoke stabilized elite clones collections night and day ^^



You don't have many options in practice :



- asking the traceability of the parents to have a reference to select the offspring : good luck to obtain that lol, i known a couple of seedbank than can lost everything if ever each customers ask them the proof of their work on long term. And we are not speaking about the "well known greenhouses shots" with the same clone in background over 100 square meters, obviously dedicated to produce weed. But about a true traceability during all the creation of the line.



- asking the integration of a mendelian notation in the pedigree of the marketing : no one care, people no longer buy genetics but "seeds to smoke". Btw, only a very little number of persons will be able to evaluate this way the equilibrium of the line. All others will just see a weird equation than don't make sense for them. You will get only questions on the final product in practice.



- asking directly to the breeder himself/herself what's going on with this strain : easy, free and more reliable than anything else (if the breeder is decent). Any form of notation will never replace that. But, lets be rationnal one minute, it's only possible with private breeders close to their base.


Until i see the stoners changing their behavior from "consumers" to "connoisseur", like many others than i can't blame ... i will continue to don't give a fck. They known where to buy feminized hemp.
Click to expand...
 
TychoMonolyth

TychoMonolyth

Boreal Curing
Think of it like kittens. My cats have had tons of kittens. There are three Tom's 8n the area that have their way with the females. 1 grey, 1 calico and a black and white guy.

When kittens are born I know who the FATHERS are. That's right. A female can get knocked up, and as ling as an egg or two hasn't been fertilized, another daddy has an opportunity to spread his Gene's. But ONE egg can't be fertilized by 2 Tom's. Same with pollen on a calyx. You can certainly have two strains 9n one female, which is why pollen from two strains and chucking it one one flower is a terrible idea. You'll end up with two different strains/crosses on the same plant with no way of knowing which resulting seeds come from which daddy.
 
M

Mengsk

Active member
beta is right. Fuel I get what you are saying you make valid points although in the end it is the same thing just a convention or standard. Maybe an example is you are left handed and the books are written right handed. If you list the females first all you would be doing is changing the x and y in the order of the way you write notes. Cannabis is different compared to animals. Each calyx can have a seed so each pair of pistils and each grain of pollen is potential for one cross. You could have one female plant with 5 or 10 crosses in the same season as long as you paid attention.

For three way crosses and standard notation I think it is fair to say there will always be amateur breeders for lack of a better term. Even if there is a standard it doesn't mean people will follow it. One breeder might be a scientist and stickler for genetics textbook plant breeding techniques strong methodology etc. Another breeder specializes in sales or public relations for example secret expensive cut which they crossed the same male to everything with absolutely no description whatsoever. Or a younger kid trying to sell seeds or someone who didn't go to college. This is cannabis after all. There are enough people who just won't follow the naming standards imo. The newer polyhybrids somewhat fit into a new category though it would be helpful to see % of each parent and a few more details.

Edit: On second thought I see what you mean about grouping the plants by pollen. Logically it makes sense if your grow area has female plants and you introduce pollen, you can keep track of all crosses made with pollen as common factor. If your grow area has all one strain, and you then introduce 5 or 6 pollens, it would make sense to group by pistil.
 
Last edited:
Elmer Bud

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
G `day Fuel

The people have spoken .

G `day F

Traditional is females 1st .
Confusing when some one breaks the convention .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
__________________
Such is life ...

7 members found this post helpful.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 
CannaRed

CannaRed

Cannabinerd
420giveaway
Elmer Bud said:
G `day Fuel

The people have spoken .



Thanks for sharin

EB .
Click to expand...

Damn right!
And it doesn't matter if I am buying a bag of flowers, buying a bag of seeds to grow, or (one day) using one of these plants to make my own cross, or own strain- I want to know everything about the plant. Especially lineage! And I want that lineage to be in the standard format.

Doesn't matter if it didn't get a exact 50% of genetic material from the mother. The MOTHER GOES FIRST. PISTIL / POLLEN

I don't care if it's easier for you.

You want to be a big boy breeder, you gotta do it the big boy way. Like every other breeder of every other plant.
 
mr.brunch

mr.brunch

Well-known member
Veteran
420giveaway
X comes before Y in the alphabet, so it makes sense for the female to come first...
female coming first also makes for a happier marriage...
 
Elmer Bud

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
G `day F

Single Hybrid cross – “Single Cross” is the term used for crossing two plants to produce hybrid seeds/progeny (A X
B) to produce what we can call “AB” seedlings in shorthand. This is what I believe most of us do with our hostas
even if the plants/flowers are not tagged and works to produce many fine plants. Additionally, we often let the
new plants be Open Pollinated which is a good strategy when working with a new hybrid to see what more is
hidden away. After producing hybrids from a single cross, consider selfing those offspring when they flower (OP
often creates “selfed” seedlings by the bees, upwards of 85% to 95% of the time for plants that can be easily self
pollinated). The selfing of plants (in line breeding) is an excellent approach for one or two generations after a
hybrid cross and is considered an ideal method to "pull out" all the possible variations via independent
segregation. After about 4 to 5 generations of selfing, you'll likely not see very much difference in the progeny
although these plants will have the added effect of being homozygous for many genes (but will still have slight
differences to their genotype, aka “near-isogenic lines”). One downfall to repeated selfing in plants encountered is
that after a few generations of in-line breeding, one may encounter “inbreeding depression” – that is the loss of
vigor or fertility. Remember, the female (pod parent) is always written to the left in the annotation.

@ Beta
Three-way cross – This term describes crossing the progeny from an earlier hybrid cross (A X B) with a third plant
(AB X C) to produce seedlings that then have recombination of the desired traits from all three plants (in theory,
25% A, 25% B, and 50% C). In crop management, the “C “plant should contain the best environmental adaption for
the region of intended use (Acquaah, 2008)xiii.

https://www.americanhostasociety.org/AHSMembers/OnlineJournals/44/images/Breeding.pdf
 
Fuel

Fuel

Active member
I will wait with humility the masterpieces than will come from so much knowledges and practical view. With no patience.


No one will hunt anymore the old jewels after that, for sure.
 
beta

beta

Active member
Veteran
red rider said:
More cannabis strains then there are breeds of dogs it seems.

red rider
Click to expand...

There are a LOT of IBL (aka purebred) dog lines but very very very very very very few IBL cannabis lines. In fact, I can't think of a single true IBL in cannabis that I can purchase as seed.

In cannabis, it's mutts all the way down. The dog breed analogy doesn't work, unfortunately.
 
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