Coco coir issues

Hi guys, I am absolutely new to this forum so I apologize already for any mistakes that I make posting in this forum. I am having a very frustrating issue with my plants and coco coir. I planted one G13 Haze and one Hash Bomb in a coco coir substrate purchased locally. I am in Chile, South America. The substrate is 40% coco, 40% perlite, and 20% of what they call "light" worm castings. I germinate plants in jiffy pellets and then they are planted directly in 6 liter pots. I have an indoor setup, a 75 cm tall x 60 cm 70 cm wide by 50 cm deep box, and use CFLs, which have worked perfect for my setup. The plants looked very healthy while in jiffy pellet but once transplanted into coco coir substrate, they almost immediately started struggling. I originally started them in a watering schedule every 9 days. However, when plants started struggling I called supplier of substrate and they recommended a watering schedule of 2-3 days, depending if top 2-3 cm where dry. They also recommended a pH of 6.5 - 7.0! Everything that I have read tells me between 5.7 - 6.2 (as absolute max). Additionally, they also recommended the use of nutrients from day one (I though cotyledons took care of that for the firs two weeks). Of course they sell Biobizz nutrients and that sounded more like a sales pitch than actual help. They also claimed to not know Advanced Nutrients. I mean, regardless of your opinion about the brand, who in the Cannabis community does not know AN? That made me take their advice even more with a grain of salt . I initially started the plants on a 24/0 light schedule, but then reduced to 20/4, and now 18/6 thinking that the plants were suffering heat stress. However, after the switch, the hash bomb still is showing sings of struggling (actually dying). Average box temperature: 28-29° Celcius. Average box humidity: 55-60% (we are in South America and I live right next to the Pacific Ocean ). Right now I am watering the plants every 3 days, 6.5 pH (average), 1 liter RO water, 1 tea spoon Epsom salts, 3/10 ml Sensi Grow A+B (Advanced Nutrients). Very little runoff comes out. I am posting a picture. I thank you for any advise that you can provide. I truly hope that I can save the plants. If you require further information I will be happy to supply it. I thank you in advance for your help.

Follow up

Follow up

Once thing that I forgot to mention is that to the substrate I added hydroton (clay balls) in a 1:1 ratio. So, substrate was reduced in 50%. Those are the little balls you see in picture.

Light nutes from day 1 and then start giving them more. Ph 5.5-6 is good. Dont let it dry.
flush them good with 500ppm /.5 @ 5.5ph incase the coco wasnt rinsed and charged

G`day jcgpiqcl

You are right . 5.8 is the sweet spot for coco PH .
6.5 PH is locking out your nutrients . Think of coco as a hydroponic system rather than a soil medium . water every day when plants are small and twice a day if necessary when plants are growing aggressively . Coco can hold water in the medium . Watering exchanges the used nutes and plants wastes while adding fresh oxygen to the coco .
20 % run off after watering is good .
So you can see you are missing two key elements . Correct PH and frequency of watering .
I would recommend pouring some water through your pots and comparing the PH and EC of the water that runs off . This will be the key to remedying your plants . I expect the PH and EC to be too high for your plants . Flushing with lower EC PH `d water till you reach lower EC and adjusted PH to between 5.7 - 6.0 is the way to fix as far as I can tell .
Pls keep us posted on your progress .

EB .

Elmer Bud said:

G`day jcgpiqcl

You are right . 5.8 is the sweet spot for coco PH .
6.5 PH is locking out your nutrients . Think of coco as a hydroponic system rather than a soil medium . water every day when plants are small and twice a day if necessary when plants are growing aggressively . Coco can hold water in the medium . Watering exchanges the used nutes and plants wastes while adding fresh oxygen to the coco .
20 % run off after watering is good .
So you can see you are missing two key elements . Correct PH and frequency of watering .
I would recommend pouring some water through your pots and comparing the PH and EC of the water that runs off . This will be the key to remedying your plants . I expect the PH and EC to be too high for your plants . Flushing with lower EC PH `d water till you reach lower EC and adjusted PH to between 5.7 - 6.0 is the way to fix as far as I can tell .
Pls keep us posted on your progress .

EB .

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Thank you so much for your reply and advise. My suspicions were right, the guys that sold me the substrate are providing the wrong information. I will let them know. Not to put them down, but they are usually kids answering the phone with very little knowledge about the product they sell and probably abusing their product as well Their phone manners are not the best either and are quite aggressive in making you feel like an idiot, . I will sure keep you guys posted on progress. 1:14 am in Chile, better get to bed.

Find something without the worm casting. It will make life easier when it's time to use nutes. It could be to hot for the little guys.

burns1n209 said:

Find something without the worm casting. It will make life easier when it's time to use nutes. It could be to hot for the little guys.

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I sure will next time, but right now I am stuck with what I've got. However, according to the supplier, it is a very diluted version of worm castings, i.e., not full strength if it makes any sense to you. It is my first time around with coco coir so I am still climbing the learning curve,

Did you flush the coco really well before planting? Sometimes the coco still has a ton of salts in it.

Good luck, sounds like you got really good advice here.

That is another thing that I forgot to mention. According to the supplier, the coco was flushed by them while preparing the mix. I tried to flush the coco myself with hot tap water but the pot did not drain very well. Actually, it did not drain at all. I had to help the pot by sticking one finger up in one of the draining holes. Then water drained immediately. That freaked me out and stopped the process. After helping the drain process, everything seems to be normal though and pot is draining properly now. I am fairly new growing cannabis, so I still freak out easily

Elmer Bud said:

G`day jcgpiqcl
I would recommend pouring some water through your pots and comparing the PH and EC of the water that runs off . This will be the key to remedying your plants . I expect the PH and EC to be too high for your plants . Flushing with lower EC PH `d water till you reach lower EC and adjusted PH to between 5.7 - 6.0 is the way to fix as far as I can tell .
Pls keep us posted on your progress .

EB .

Click to expand...

I watered Hash Bomb today with 1 liter RO water and big runoff, about 1/2 liter, pH 5.7. I will consider that a mini flush. pH reading: 7.8! Unfortunately, I don't have an EC meter, very hard to get specialized devices down here. The one that I found in Santiago, which is 1600 km south of me, is way too expensive, about US$500, so that is out of the question for the time being. I will try to borrow one if available from a friend who specializes in the field. So my question is, keep watering everyday until pH is down, right? Should I pH water even lower? Thanks sire, JC

jcgpiqcl said:

That is another thing that I forgot to mention. According to the supplier, the coco was flushed by them while preparing the mix. I tried to flush the coco myself with hot tap water but the pot did not drain very well. Actually, it did not drain at all. I had to help the pot by sticking one finger up in one of the draining holes. Then water drained immediately. That freaked me out and stopped the process. After helping the drain process, everything seems to be normal though and pot is draining properly now. I am fairly new growing cannabis, so I still freak out easily

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Next time you're preparing new coir, use a pillowcase or sheet, get in the tub and just have at it.

Is that a 1 gal pot?
Next time start them in something smaller.
Watering with 2-3 times the pot volume should reset the ph and ec.

TribalSeeds said:

Is that a 1 gal pot?
Next time start them in something smaller.
Watering with 2-3 times the pot volume should reset the ph and ec.

Click to expand...

6 liters = 1.5 gallons

G`day jcgpiqcl

The problem starts where the coco is manufactured . A lot of the coconut are soaked in sea water as part of the process .
I have flushed some bales of coco with 3-4 times their volume of water and the EC was still off the meter .
When the water you collect as run off is very near the PH and EC of the flush water your inputting , only then can you be confident the coco is flushed . Some times this may only require 1-2 times the volume others it may take several more . There is no set rule .
Without an EC meter it makes it tricky to tell the EC . But PH adjustment and light nutes for a week or so should tell the tale of where its at . ie if the plant improves your close if it gets worse flush some more .

EB .

get some pure coco without perlite (btw my perlite rises the ph of the coco, thats why i dont use perlite) and without worm castings. Its the ebst you can do

Elmer Bud said:

G`day jcgpiqcl

The problem starts where the coco is manufactured . A lot of the coconut are soaked in sea water as part of the process .
I have flushed some bales of coco with 3-4 times their volume of water and the EC was still off the meter .
When the water you collect as run off is very near the PH and EC of the flush water your inputting , only then can you be confident the coco is flushed . Some times this may only require 1-2 times the volume others it may take several more . There is no set rule .
Without an EC meter it makes it tricky to tell the EC . But PH adjustment and light nutes for a week or so should tell the tale of where its at . ie if the plant improves your close if it gets worse flush some more .

EB .

Click to expand...

Elmer, first let me tell you that I am truly grateful for your assistance, advise, and concern. I am following your instructions and plant is showing already signs of improvement and growth. I still have to calibrate the amount of water for the plant. I am watering daily and I am down to 1/4 liter twice a day and still lots of runoff. That is not an issue to me, I just drain plate and continue with process. One thing tha I understood from all the opinions here is that it is critical to mantain coco moist. I truly believe that the plant will survive . Evidently, I will need to assess use of coco coir in the future after issue is stabilized and I have learned how to treat coco properly. If I decide to use coco in the future, I believe that I will follow the advice of all the kind people that had input for this post and buy a block of pure coco and thoroughly flush it with warm water. I will stay away from pre-mixes. I will also have to evaluate my provider since the one I got it from has yet to answer my requests for assistance. Not a good sign. Advanced Nutrients hasn't replied either. Oh, well, such is life . Again, thank you all for your help and I will keep you all informed of progress. JC

G`day JC

I`m trying to repay the debts I owe Ed Rosenthal , Mel Frank and R C Clarke .
They were my professors when I 1st started on my journey . I have never met any of those men , but they gave me a solid grounding in Cannabis growing and consumption that has served me truly .


EB .

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Well guys, after bothering you all with this issue it turns out that the answer was quite simple. After the plants started showing signs of recovery, they again got worse and runoff water started smelling like rotten eggs. So, I picked up the phone and Lo' and behold, the owner of the company that supplied the substrate answered the phone. We had a long conversation but in summary, the mix that I bought is manually blended in the back of the store. After discussing substrate's behavior we reached to the conclusion that somebody in the mixing area screwed up and reverted the blend, adding 40% worm castings and 10% coco coir instead of the contrary. That's why the damn thing was having issues draining if you tried flushing it, worm casting's consistency, muddy. It also explains why it was so hard to find a suitable watering schedule. We were thinking of coco when the mix was actually closer to regular soil and should've been treated as such. That goes to tells us to never forget the human factor . So, I am back to treating the substrate under a regular potting soil watering schedule (7-9 days) and see if I can still save the plants. Just in case, I have 2 pineapple kush soaking . I am thinking of the Hash Bomb that is the one that suffered the most and still growing very slow. Supplier is replacing mix with one 25 liter coco brick. Of course, all free of charge. That way I can learn from start how to deal with coco and will last me for a long time . Once again, I thank you all for your concern and assistance. All of the information that you all provided proved to be a useful learning tool and it will surely be helpful in the future. Happy trails guys! JC

That's a hell of a clusterfuck, but I'm glad to read you got it sorted out.

crazy. good luck on saveing them, sounds like, if you can, grow them out where you can cut a clone or to and transfer in to the real coco,instead of dealing with worm shit and mud