Buying land and becoming a farmer

fart star said:

I'm talking about growing the vine not processing the harvest/marketing it. google biodynamic wine and see how prevelant it is. When comparing high value crops grapes are one of the easiest to grow biodynamically. Making a fine wine is alot different than growing grapes.

I really think that you should check yourself- I have been around vineyards my entire life.

edit.

And in reference to my post about it being 'easy' in the USA, it was in the context of producing a more consistent grape harvest due to the available irrigation during the growing season.

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Ahhhh - just to clarify for you. If you just grow a vine, you will never produce a viable grape crop. Just as I, a grape grower for over 35 years, am experiencing a learning curve with this hobby of a crop that we all grow here. And I understand soil, water and fertilizers better then most. Grow a lush and beautiful vine and you will produce no viable fruit. It's a balance that doesn't come from a text book but takes YEARS to understand and learn, since you don't get 4 crops a year.... you get one.

But don't take my word for it, instead of "just being around a vineyard", just sink all your dough in a vineyard and go broke. I've forgotten more, in 35 years of growing over 20 various varieties and selling over 300 million Lbs. of grapes to supermarkets all over the world, then you'll ever know. You'd be better off arguing with your mom or dad. Or impressing someone who doesn't know any better.
biodynamic. Pffft.

I am humbled by your experience and wisdom. Maybe you can come by sometime and show me how to grow my 1/4 section of concords. We've had them for 12 years and the vines are great we just don't ever get any grapes! You mean were supposed to be growing grapes?! fuck.

As much as you want it to be, this isn't a pissing match about who knows more- If I had PM capabilities I'd take this there. The point is to share information about farming with someone who's thinking about the industry. pour a glass of wine and chill out. please

If I wasn't concerned for my security I'd tell you about all the different agriculture industries I've worked in and around. You really have no idea who I am or what I do. But its all good. I know that you don't know, so I can't really expect much else out of you. I mean your handle is grapeman! of course your going to want to be the boss when people are talking about grapes. take er easy old timer

Statements retracted

This is turning into a bit of a pissing contest between those who have done it, and those who think they know how to do it. Seems that the folks who have actual experience are getting told that they're full of manure by those who have read several articles about it.
A few observations: When you go to a farmer's daughters wedding (to a travelling salesman?) shake some hands, notice 2 things. Skin like sandpaper, and missing fingers.

Wearing bib overalls doesn't make you an agricultural expert, but may indicate you're a fool.

Having been there, I'd say it's a great life if you like working your ass off for low pay with long hours and frequent disappointment. Always had to keep a real job to pay the bills and educate kids; but I'll probably keep doing it until I die.
Old joke... The reporter was asking the farmer what was he going to do with the million dollars he won in the lottery ? Farmer replied..."probably keep farming until it's all gone"

fart star said:

I am humbled by your experience and wisdom. Maybe you can come by sometime and show me how to grow my 1/4 section of concords. We've had them for 12 years and the vines are great we just don't ever get any grapes! You mean were supposed to be growing grapes?! fuck.

As much as you want it to be, this isn't a pissing match about who knows more- If I had PM capabilities I'd take this there. The point is to share information about farming with someone who's thinking about the industry. pour a glass of wine and chill out. please

If I wasn't concerned for my security I'd tell you about all the different agriculture industries I've worked in and around. You really have no idea who I am or what I do. But its all good. I know that you don't know, so I can't really expect much else out of you. I mean your handle is grapeman! of course your going to want to be the boss when people are talking about grapes. take er easy old timer

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Growing concords is all about "Not" spending money as producers are locked into juice contracts with the usual suspects. concord grapes do not need to be pretty, appealing, well formed or very clean. Your biggest enemy would be PM and rain just before harvest. Growing juice grapes is like riding a bike with training wheels, and would not qualify you to to advise people that growing wine or table grapes is easy. Juice grapes are our culls and we usually sell our culls on the vine for $90 to $150/ton, depending on the season AFTER our main crop is harvested and sold at $2,000/ton or higher for table. Concords are self setting, self thinning vines that are mechanically pruned and harvested. Like wine grapes. But the difference with wine grapes is that wine varieties are more complicated to grow in order to maintain a balance of sugars and tanins in an attempt to obtain a vintage yearly. Concords only need to hit a certain brix or sugar level (as required by your juicer as per your tiered contract) to be harvested successfully. Table grapes much much harder still. Labor and other costs push growing costs to $5,000/acre or more (with an additional $5,000 to $7000 in harvest costs yearly), while growing juice grapes is about $1,000 to $1,500/acre in costs and then mechanically harvested. In other words, to grow 160 acres of concords (aside from calling the harvester that is usually paid by the Juice company upon delivery) could cost you at most $250,000/year not including debt service or taxes, while table grape costs for the same 160 acres would cost the owner at least $1.6 million without ever having a contract as security. Just the cost of growing concords is cost prohibitive for most people, let alone wine or table grapes.

Grow up and be honest. If you are advising people that grapes are easy to grow, then you NEVER developed the farm. I can hike in the canyons above our valley and find wild grape vines that grow naturally near water. So yes, VINES are easy to grow. They are vines. But making money with the right varieties with today's land costs and government regulations is not easy.

You just work for your parents or some company that originally took the risk and are not qualified to make such stupid statements.

I am a 3rd generation farmer of 300+ acres of mixed fruit/vegetables for wholesale and local markets.

We grow concord grapes- because of what you mentioned. We harvest and drive them to the processing facility and collect our check. We do this because our hands are generally tied with other crops most of the late summer and fall.

And to re-iterate an earlier post. I mentioned that due to Americans access to irrigation, we have it 'easier' in that we can produce a more consistent product than in parts of Europe where crop irrigation is not available or even banned.

I also brought up that when comparing high-value high-intensity cropping systems, grapes are easier to produce biodynamically than others. And its true. Blackone asked about growing grapes biodynamically and I answered him. Beyond that I spoke from my personal experiences with growing grapes, which happen to be concords. Theyre a breeze. Most of the operation is mechanized and the post harvest processing is cleaning out our transfer tanks and keeping our tractor trailers up to snuff.

and these comments about growing up, and working for parents, are they meant to insult me or what? Like I said, I am 3rd generation. We are in a constant stage of development and replanting. I am involved in every step of the process, and have been for the last 25 years. I don't appreciate your attitude or your approach at discussion. You seem to have a vast knowledge of agriculture, why don't you use it constructively rather than attempt to discredit strangers on a pot forum?

fart star said:

I am a 3rd generation farmer of 300+ acres of mixed fruit/vegetables for wholesale and local markets.

We grow concord grapes- because of what you mentioned. We harvest and drive them to the processing facility and collect our check. We do this because our hands are generally tied with other crops most of the late summer and fall.

And to re-iterate an earlier post. I mentioned that due to Americans access to irrigation, we have it 'easier' in that we can produce a more consistent product than in parts of Europe where crop irrigation is not available or even banned.

I also brought up that when comparing high-value high-intensity cropping systems, grapes are easier to produce biodynamically than others. And its true. Blackone asked about growing grapes biodynamically and I answered him. Beyond that I spoke from my personal experiences with growing grapes, which happen to be concords. Theyre a breeze. Most of the operation is mechanized and the post harvest processing is cleaning out our transfer tanks and keeping our tractor trailers up to snuff.

and these comments about growing up, and working for parents, are they meant to insult me or what? Like I said, I am 3rd generation. We are in a constant stage of development and replanting. I am involved in every step of the process, and have been for the last 25 years. I don't appreciate your attitude or your approach at discussion. You seem to have a vast knowledge of agriculture, why don't you use it constructively rather than attempt to discredit strangers on a pot forum?

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No offense meant. Just don't think you should pass along bad information. Growing grapes biodynamically is BS, unless you just want 100 vines to bottle your own wine. Even then, It would be cheaper, easier and better for the environment the just buy the few cases of wine that that you would've produced from those few vines.

It's all good. Alot of people think that Rudolf Steiner is a kook and that biodynamic ag is just fairy dust. I'm implementing some research to see if there is anything to it or not. It is commendable to attempt and grow food utilizing a deeper connection with the land and plants though. More research needs to be done before I throw out some of my 'tools' that aren't as biologically friendly as they could be. Especially in a commercial sense. My kitchen garden is another matter.

Glad you guys kissed and made up.

I enjoy reading what both of you have to say, but not the part.
I'm not really sure what biodynamic farming is, Maybe no-till or intercropping or some such.
I was hot to start a greenhouse tomato hydroponic operation a long time ago, and didn't and now the market's so saturated with greenhouse tomatoes...Should have jumped in back then. Of course all the successful ones (lots of them here in the desert) are big business. No way to hop in and compete now without massive capital to set up big huge greenhouses.
I sit on 5 acres of desert and there has to be a way to make this land pay for itself. I might start something small and see if I can produce more than what I can use then see if I can find a market for the rest. That's the whole thing- a market. Veggies, etc, but then how to sell it. There used to be roadside stands here, but now all you ever see is illegals selling oranges out of a pickup. Maybe they outlawed roadside markets here. Once in a while a small time farmer comes to town with a truck load of watermelons. Sets up in a store parking lot, looks like they ain't getting rich like the big cotton farmers.

I get the feeling that the local restaurants have plenty of wannabe trendy-upscale veggie farmers already competing for their business.

I guess I'll just worry about seeing how much I can grow for myself.

hazy said:

Glad you guys kissed and made up.

I enjoy reading what both of you have to say, but not the part.
I'm not really sure what biodynamic farming is, Maybe no-till or intercropping or some such.
I was hot to start a greenhouse tomato hydroponic operation a long time ago, and didn't and now the market's so saturated with greenhouse tomatoes...Should have jumped in back then. Of course all the successful ones (lots of them here in the desert) are big business. No way to hop in and compete now without massive capital to set up big huge greenhouses.
I sit on 5 acres of desert and there has to be a way to make this land pay for itself. I might start something small and see if I can produce more than what I can use then see if I can find a market for the rest. That's the whole thing- a market. Veggies, etc, but then how to sell it. There used to be roadside stands here, but now all you ever see is illegals selling oranges out of a pickup. Maybe they outlawed roadside markets here. Once in a while a small time farmer comes to town with a truck load of watermelons. Sets up in a store parking lot, looks like they ain't getting rich like the big cotton farmers.

I get the feeling that the local restaurants have plenty of wannabe trendy-upscale veggie farmers already competing for their business.

I guess I'll just worry about seeing how much I can grow for myself.

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If you live in the CA. desert SW (like me) and you have good cheap water, take a look at growing dates. It is starting to get over planted, but in time, it will correct itself. Trees grow slow and produce in 4 to 5 years, with full production in about 6 or 7. But date trees give you several ways to make money. With the crop (150 to 200 lbs/tree and about 55 to 60 trees/ac), or with the trees. Growers don't let their trees get too tall any more. They sell them at 12' to 18' for landscapers or developers (see the Vegas strip). Trees go for 2 or 2.5k apiece, so that is about 4120k for the trees alone. But you can sell the annual crop until the housing market lights up again, then sell and re-plant.
My 2 cents.

grapeman said:

If you live in the CA. desert SW (like me) and you have good cheap water, take a look at growing dates. It is starting to get over planted, but in time, it will correct itself. Trees grow slow and produce in 4 to 5 years, with full production in about 6 or 7. But date trees give you several ways to make money. With the crop (150 to 200 lbs/tree and about 55 to 60 trees/ac), or with the trees. Growers don't let their trees get too tall any more. They sell them at 12' to 18' for landscapers or developers (see the Vegas strip). Trees go for 2 or 2.5k apiece, so that is about 4120k for the trees alone. But you can sell the annual crop until the housing market lights up again, then sell and re-plant.
My 2 cents.

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Interesting So.. how do you go about selling an 18' tree? Just dig it up and put them on a truck?

Theres a machine out there called a tree spade.


pretty bad ass!

How many years does it take to grow a 12' date tree?

Before investing in a property, I would get incorporated and stack some capital.

This was my process.


Go buy some land, live in a tent on the property for 1 outdoor season, and your property should be paid off mostly.

Then repeat and you'll have capital to build a barn/house/building.

blackone said:

Interesting So.. how do you go about selling an 18' tree? Just dig it up and put them on a truck?

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Yep. 3 to 5 at a pop, depending on weight

Woah, it's not an instant 2k for every tree. If you're the grower, odds are you're not vertically integrated from the tree all the way to the Vegas strip or wherever. I've been all over the tree business, had spades (no more), and so forth. I'm also on the other side of the country, but here's an example. After a few years of pitching professional diggers, one of them got back to me and bought some 18 footers off me at 18 per foot or $324 each. Of course he only wanted primo trees, not a field run. He and his crew came in with their huge spade but nowhere near as big as that monster in the pic digging the douglas fir. Still maybe $250,000 for a slightly smaller spade and truck? Maybe more. Lots of payments anyway.
Then they worked their asses off for a few day tieing trees and generally preparing them for the trauma of digging them before the actual digging. Then the contract trucker with the flatbed (and payments) came in and got paid for trucking them, a highlift loaded the trees, and they were off on a trip of 600 miles to a guy known as a re-wholesaler, kind of the agent for the landscaper. Eventually the landscaper using his equipment (payments) and crew installed them in the swanky far away office park, of course the landscaper has to give a year guarantee on the tree - I don't.
It probably cost the office park developer 2 or 3 grand per tree, but nobody is getting rich off of this deal. I made a few bucks selling 16 year old trees, the digger and his boys made some money, so did the trucker, the re-wholesaler, and the landscaper. I get to pay my property taxes and for some of my equipment, everyone else has to pay their way too.
I was happy getting over 300 bucks for these trees. I can't see where you can say those trees are going to bring the grower 3 grand.

fishheadbob said:

Woah, it's not an instant 2k for every tree. If you're the grower, odds are you're not vertically integrated from the tree all the way to the Vegas strip or wherever. I've been all over the tree business, had spades (no more), and so forth. I'm also on the other side of the country, but here's an example. After a few years of pitching professional diggers, one of them got back to me and bought some 18 footers off me at 18 per foot or $324 each. Of course he only wanted primo trees, not a field run. He and his crew came in with their huge spade but nowhere near as big as that monster in the pic digging the douglas fir. Still maybe $250,000 for a slightly smaller spade and truck? Maybe more. Lots of payments anyway.
Then they worked their asses off for a few day tieing trees and generally preparing them for the trauma of digging them before the actual digging. Then the contract trucker with the flatbed (and payments) came in and got paid for trucking them, a highlift loaded the trees, and they were off on a trip of 600 miles to a guy known as a re-wholesaler, kind of the agent for the landscaper. Eventually the landscaper using his equipment (payments) and crew installed them in the swanky far away office park, of course the landscaper has to give a year guarantee on the tree - I don't.
It probably cost the office park developer 2 or 3 grand per tree, but nobody is getting rich off of this deal. I made a few bucks selling 16 year old trees, the digger and his boys made some money, so did the trucker, the re-wholesaler, and the landscaper. I get to pay my property taxes and for some of my equipment, everyone else has to pay their way too.
I was happy getting over 300 bucks for these trees. I can't see where you can say those trees are going to bring the grower 3 grand.

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Grower gets $2k to $2.5k per tree. why would I lie to you? It may be at the low end now with the economy, and sales may be very slow, but during these cycles you sell the fruit from the trees. Palms gow about 1'/year so you can usually wait out any down turns in the economy (3 to 6 years with no ill effects).