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Old 12-06-2018, 06:22 AM #61
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I don't mean to instigate but perhaps there is some irony in the language used or the clauses written into the tax laws. Where the specific mention of those items above is intended to serve as a form of disclaimer outline or protection clause for the corporation - 'see here the oil company is helping to clean the birds and educate children about asthma.' Cleaning one bird (or donating 1% of profits) is making a commercial to be a good guy, not really the same effect (actually the opposite so effectively propaganda or false advertising) as providing an overview of the damage of large oil spills or how many birds were not cleaned. This turned grim all of a sudden but kill one million birds in an oil spill, ruin a beach and fishing industry, and make a commercial about cleaning a bird. That is what you have to expect from corporations. The spin where the ax man decimating your livelihood and community pretends to be a good guy. I forgot how that relates to rec sales tax but I think it's in there somewhere. Suppose I'm feeling cynical this evening but it is like an organization (or rather society wide across organizations universally accepted) instead of hiring and paying more different people, creating a diversity statement and taking a photo with token representative women and textbook diverse appearing group. Where the department and statement on diversity is just a front or a minimally appeasing attempt to fulfill a socially demanded need or feebly assigned mandate.

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Old 12-06-2018, 06:35 PM #62
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Yeah, I don't know if the tax laws around marijuana in MA were written to protect the corporations (I mean, all tax laws are created to protected corporations, because the law is a discourse in political power, and corporations hold a great deal of that power and lobby to have laws written that work to their benefit) so much as to justify legal sales and taxation of something some people still view as sinful (not in the religious sense). That 10% (excise) tax, that's a sin tax, much like with gambling and alcohol.

As for the corporations, they made big (financial) promises as well, to the state, to the host communities, etc. And a lot of that was the corporations saying "don't worry, yes there may be downsides to us being in your community, but we'll make it worth your while."

On an another note, in some ways I'm trying to think of this as being like the end of alcohol prohibition, but as if there hadn't been established legal businesses brewing and distilling prior to legal prohibition. Then all of a sudden the law changes, and they open two liquor stores in MA and they're the first ones on the entire east coast. But hey, they have beer! I went to one of the liquor stores, and they were limiting people to one six pack, but you could buy singles, and they had beers named "Ale" and "IPA" and "Stout" and "Double IPA." I mean sure, it was kinda crappy beer compared to the stuff I used to get through my buddy who knew people who brewed it on their farms in VT and ME, but still, beer!

In other words, in time I hope quality will improve as competition improves the market. Still intend to grow my own or turn to the unregulated market until it ceases to make sense to do so.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:57 PM #63
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Farmers markets type deals are going on now, still kinda in the shadows. But I’m sure over the next 12 months , it will start being more accepted.
Doubt it. Every club, lounge and farmers market i ever used got shut down eventually. If they ain't paying taxes they'll get raided for sure. Leafly even banned collective delivery listings. Weedmaps still allows non tax payers to list. (Screw Leafly, helping dispensaries sell garbage all day with their fancy descriptions and self written dispensary moderated reviews. And their LP in Canada sucks ass, they are total shills for the corporate greenrush)

Congrats on your grow rights MA.. Should be three times what you got but its better than nothing. Legislators and voters see these 20lb trees and think that's where clone only quality comes from, so 12 sounds like too much. I cant believe how slave-like pro Cannabis voters can be. The black market carries a lot of hate that doesn't make sense to me. They're all about getting ripped off smoking eagle 20 and paying taxes. How does Mass regulate pesticides? Not that it matters because i dont want to smoke "organic" pesticides either. It's inevitable with mega grows.

I wouldn't even touch a clone from a shop so pheno hunting or keeping mothers basically keeps hobby growers in the same shadows as the past 70 years. Thats my problem with legalization. I want to run a few packs and keep some males. Impossible, legally. Do they allow caregiver situations where grandma can sign her 6 plants over to little billy?
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:28 AM #64
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Just FYI....the voters passed a law that set the state tax rate at 10% with a local option tax of 2% to the town for a total of 12%.

The Legislature of course took that law and used it for toilet paper. They set the tax rate at 17% for the state, 3% for the town, and also made hosting agreements mandatory, with a cap of 3% extortion for the town. So the current tax rate is 17% state, 6% town....23%, just about double of what we voted for.

btw the law we voted for actually banned hosting agreements! It gave the towns 2%, and that wasn't enough. There is no local tax on alcohol and beer is taxed at 1% in Mass., wine at 2% and spirits a little higher. Meals tax in Mass. is a maximum of .75%! So local cannabis tax is 8 times higher than meals tax. Overall tax on weed is about 20 times higher than beer.

there are still plenty of websites with listings of black-market sellers and there are several delivery services operating in plain sight. There is no way to track how many people grew big outdoor crops this summer and gave it to their friends but I would guess home production is at least 10 times higher than it was before Question 4. That is the under-reported story....massive home growing is happening! you won't see it in the news because the wealthy elites and political class don't make any money off it.

there is a provision for medical caregivers - you can designate someone else to grow for you. Medical MJ is going to die though. It doesn't specifically allow you to grow more plants - you'd have to prove in court you needed more than 12 for medical. MedMJ patients are allowed 10 ounces in the car instead of 2 which is nice. They won't pay the 23% tax in dispensaries, but it's expensive and a huge pain the ass to be a medical patient.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:11 PM #65
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^ yep, tax revenue is like blood in the water for the political class,,, feeding frenzy, never leaves them satisfied
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Old 12-09-2018, 07:06 PM #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleskinner View Post
Just FYI....the voters passed a law that set the state tax rate at 10% with a local option tax of 2% to the town for a total of 12%.

The Legislature of course took that law and used it for toilet paper. They set the tax rate at 17% for the state, 3% for the town, and also made hosting agreements mandatory, with a cap of 3% extortion for the town. So the current tax rate is 17% state, 6% town....23%, just about double of what we voted for.

btw the law we voted for actually banned hosting agreements! It gave the towns 2%, and that wasn't enough. There is no local tax on alcohol and beer is taxed at 1% in Mass., wine at 2% and spirits a little higher. Meals tax in Mass. is a maximum of .75%! So local cannabis tax is 8 times higher than meals tax. Overall tax on weed is about 20 times higher than beer.

there are still plenty of websites with listings of black-market sellers and there are several delivery services operating in plain sight. Of course there is no way to track how many people grew big outdoor crops this summer and gave it to their friends but I would guess home production is at least 10 times higher than it was before Question 4. That is the under-reported story....massive home growing is happening! you won't see it in the news because the wealthy elites and political class don't make any money off it.

there is a provision for medical caregivers - you can designate someone else to grow for you. Medical MJ is going to die though. It doesn't specifically allow you to grow more plants - you'd have to prove in court you needed more than 12 for medical. MedMJ patients are allowed 10 ounces in the car in the car instead of 2 which is nice. They won't pay the 23% tax in dispensaries, but it's expensive and a huge pain the ass to be a medical patient.

Minor point, but you're a bit off on the taxes. The states gets 17% (6.25 sales tax plus 10.75 excise tax), local community gets up to 3%. So it's 20% total, not 23%.
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Old 12-09-2018, 07:22 PM #67
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It looks like the state / local is making about $100 per ounce.

I would think that they'd want that sweet smell of money everywhere.
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:52 AM #68
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Obviously some communities agree, and some don't. I know one west suburban community voted down a proposed moratorium on dispensaries. But once a sufficient # of dispensaries are open the tax take per dispensary will obviously be somewhat lower (also, in theory, prices and thus tax revenue will go down).
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Old 12-10-2018, 05:50 PM #69
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So are you making a semantic correction to my post...? You will pay the extra 3% to the town via hosting agreement - I call that a tax. The dispensary will be paying 3% of gross revenue to the municipal government. Should I re-write my post to call it "hosting agreement payment to the town" instead of "tax"?

Trust me, you will pay 6% to the town, you will pay 23% of the purchase price to the government, whether it's baked into the sticker price or listed separately. Actually, many towns are breaking the law by requiring even more than a 3% hosting agreement, and the CCC has chosen to allow it. So the local town will take the 3% local tax, the 3% "hosting agreement payment to the town", and ANOTHER 1-2% for "compulsory community charity donations". I find it easier to say "tax" when you're paying the government. Your wallet will be just as empty regardless of the government's euphemisms and semantic gymnastics.
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Old 12-10-2018, 05:58 PM #70
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here is the text - good news though - the extra 3% tax, er..."hosting agreement payment to the town" is not allowed after 5 years - so the local tax SHOULD drop from 6% down to 3% after 5 years - but like I said, the CCC has already decided not to enforce the 3% cap - I highly doubt the Attorney General or CCC is going to enforce the 5-year limit - instead canna-businesses will have to pay for a lawsuit to get out of the extra 3% after 5 years.

Most likely they will not sue, just like they are not suing today to challenge the 3% cap violations - suing the town in which you're trying to get licensed would be business suicide. They'll pull your license if you sue them.

(d) A marijuana establishment or a medical marijuana treatment center seeking to operate or continue to operate in a municipality which permits such operation shall execute an agreement with the host community setting forth the conditions to have a marijuana establishment or medical marijuana treatment center located within the host community which shall include, but not be limited to, all stipulations of responsibilities between the host community and the marijuana establishment or a medical marijuana treatment center. An agreement between a marijuana establishment or a medical marijuana treatment center and a host community may include a community impact fee for the host community; provided, however, that the community impact fee shall be reasonably related to the costs imposed upon the municipality by the operation of the marijuana establishment or medical marijuana treatment center and shall not amount to more than 3 per cent of the gross sales of the marijuana establishment or medical marijuana treatment center or be effective for longer than 5 years. Any cost to a city or town imposed by the operation of a marijuana establishment or medical marijuana treatment center shall be documented and considered a public record as defined by clause Twenty-sixth of section 7 of chapter 4.

more....all the gory details - this article says virtually ALL of the hosting agreements are violating the 3% cap (6% total) - so we're paying even more than 23% to government:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...pEO/story.html
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