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Dangers of Neem Oil

therevverend

Well-known member
Veteran
I've noticed lately that growers are using more Neem Oil, recommending it to everyone, and dousing everything all the time with Neem believing it completely safe because it's approved for organic use.

While neem oil has a long history of use, is relatively safer then many other pesticides, and has a low toxicity for most adult humans, it has dangers and should be used carefully. Neem oil poisoning is rare but some people are highly allergic to it. And of course some people use way, way too much.

Here's a report of Neem poisoning:

Neem oil has widespread use in Indian subcontinent due to its many bioactive properties. Azadirachtin, an active ingredient, is implicated in causing the effects seen in neem oil poisoning. Neem oil poisoning is rare in adults. This report highlights the toxicity associated with neem oil poisoning in an elderly male. The patient presented with vomiting, seizures, metabolic acidosis, and toxic encephalopathy. The patient recovered completely with symptomatic treatment.

and link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841499/

Encephalopathy is swelling of the brain, possibly fatal. I read of another case where a 35 year old woman consumed 125 ml neem oil for 5 days. Her brain swelled so much she lost her vision. It took a month of treatment to get it back.

There's been widespread cases of a phenomenon called 'scromiting' where long time cannabis users vomit and have seizures after smoking cannabis. There's a thread about it here at IC. The symptoms sound like Neem poisoning. I'll add that it's quite rare but it's been reported widely enough to get press coverage in Colorado.

Neem is is especially dangerous to babies and children. In a study performed in 1982 it was found that neem ingested by children or infants causes swelling of the brain, damage to the liver and other organs and can be potentially fatal. While not usually the consumers of cannabis I'd be very cautious if I was using the stuff around kids.

It's also a contraceptive and causes miscarriages. Pregnant women should never be around the stuff, and it's so ubiquitous in dispensary herb if you're pregnant or looking to get pregnant you shouldn't smoke or ingest it unless they test for it.

A lot of the traditional uses of Neem are topical, brushing your teeth and spitting it out, treating your skin and hair, or as a soap. When it's ingested it's small amounts for a short period of time to cure a disease. I noticed it's only fatal to insects if they ingest the leaves containing the neem. If they're just contacting it they're fine.

I wouldn't recommend smoking buds sprayed with Neem oil for any length of time, or at all if you're allergic. I think people have problems with Neem in large quantities when it saturates their system. There hasn't been testing on long or short term effects of smoking neem oil.

I'm not advocating never using Neem Oil. Like other pesticides I'd limit it's use to a couple of weeks during Veg or maybe very early flowering before the plants have developed white hair clusters. One nice thing about Neem is that it's not a carcinogen like a lot of other pesticides.

Personally I don't like the stuff. Dislike the smell, it makes me slightly nauseous. Wouldn't ever ingest the stuff and wouldn't want it on my skin because of the smell. Hope I never have to use it on my plants..
 
I was using it more but lately just stopped. I'd rather smoke bugs if that's my option.
Last year I had a bad spider mites infestation, and I tried spraying buds that we're about week away from harvest which was a really dumb idea anyway.
I got bad headaches anytime I smoked any of the bud. I gave it away and checked with others and no one else had a problem with it. Even called me crazy saying there is nothing wrong with it.
I'm sensitive to lots of things so maybe it's just that.
Just wanted to put that out there
 

troutman

Seed Whore
I bought some to see what is was about and don't like it.
It smells bad and I figured I would use something else.
It's too greasy for me.
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I was just discussing this with a friend last evening.
He's been diagnosed with CHS (Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome) and has since, more or less, quit smoking weed. He has a bowl occasionally and seems to experience the symptoms just about every time he smokes.


I've another friend that is also sensitive to Aza products. He said that the Peyote Purple I grew last year seems to be clean from Aza products So I gave a bud to my friend mentioned above to try out as a test. We'll see what happens and I'll try and remember to report back what his experience was.


After reading a few anecdotal reports of neem ingestion and reading how insects react to it, I'd say ingestion is a BAD idea, even for adults.
 

Somatek

Active member
I've yet to see anything convincing enough to dissuade me from using it. The incidents of azadirachtin poisoning involved higher dosages then we'd be exposed to if it's used properly. The above article mentions that he ingested 20ml of neem oil directly. Considering we dilute that much into a liter and spray it over a garden, where it then breaks down considerable before it's harvested, dried and smoked. The half life of it is less then 30 days I believe, it's not a stable substance.

I'm not saying it's not a possibility, just that it seems unlikely as it would have to be heavily applied right up to harvest to reach toxic doses based off the articles that are sited which mention toxic reactions at anywhere from 20-250ml of direct neem oil ingestion. Until there's more research done to validate that theory it doesn't seem likely to me, not nearly enough to make me stop using neem oil. We ingest a lot more neem oil residue through the vegetables we eat as a society, if CHS was caused by azadirachtin poisoning we would be seeing it in non-users as well.
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I believe CHS is the result of SMOKING aza not ingesting it through the gut.


I've got 3 friends that suffer similar symptoms. 2 have done something about the issue and stopped using Aza products, the 3rd doesn't care much about his health. He just complains and gets turned down for pain meds at the ER because they think he's a pill popper.
 

Ringodoggie

Well-known member
Premium user
But.... it's ORGANIC so it MUST be good for us. LOL


91PQZcCIojL._SL1500_.jpg



I refuse to spray ANYTHING on my plants. I have used Azamax to spray my empty room after a mite infestation. And, I have sprayed my tools, pots, carpet and walls with it.

But then, I'm not smoking my walls or carpet. LOL It seems to dissipate real fast. Too fast in the light. And, most importantly....... it didn't get rid of the mites. WTF? Why use something that presents potential health dangers but still does not kill the mites. Fucking borg.

I am in total agreement with what someone above said.... I rather smoke the mites (as gross as that sounds).

I am fighting a mite problem right now so this hits home.





.
 

Somatek

Active member
I believe CHS is the result of SMOKING aza not ingesting it through the gut.


I've got 3 friends that suffer similar symptoms. 2 have done something about the issue and stopped using Aza products, the 3rd doesn't care much about his health. He just complains and gets turned down for pain meds at the ER because they think he's a pill popper.

That's a possibility but there's no science to support it as this point so it's just an assumption. Generally combustion destroys complex molecules like azadirachtin, so again it doesn't seem likely to me when the dosage is significantly lower then the recognised toxicity.

@Ringodoggie: It has nothing to do with it being organic, it has to do with the dosage needed to achieve toxicity. Arsenic is organic but has a much lower LD50, so that's an absurdly simplistic reductionist argument. The issue is can neem create a toxic effect when diluted at 15-30ml/l and sprayed over a garden months before ingestion when recognised cases involve direct ingestion of 20-250ml+. Taking it as fact is a big leap of faith that currently isn't supported with science.

Azamax isn't a contact spray, so spraying it on walls/carpets/etc is using it incorrectly which is why it didn't work for you.
 

Ringodoggie

Well-known member
Premium user
@Ringodoggie: It has nothing to do with it being organic, it has to do with the dosage needed to achieve toxicity. Arsenic is organic but has a much lower LD50, so that's an absurdly simplistic reductionist argument

As Foghorn Leghorn says, "That was a joke, son. A joke. Get it. Boy ain't got no sense of humor." LOL


300116_1.jpg










.
 
M

metsäkana

how many people out of million get these symptoms? or is it like few out of hundreds of millions

with smoking or dabbing or eating cannabis
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
I've noticed all the people with CHS I've come across (who have very bad symptoms), are also suffering from overblown H.Pylori infections in their gut. This is much more common in places with poor quality food like the USA.

Those who are not sensitive, you'll still hear them bitch about football injuries and such flaring up... within a couple days of beginning to use cannabis with neem/aza on it. It causes muscle tension all over your body. Just not a lot for those non-sensitive. Digestion issues you'd attribute to 2 days of too many chips and such, it's rather subtle.

Had I not suffered from H.Pylori AND CHS from aza, I never would have connected the two. It was only after I spontaneously vomited one day, after spraying an aza product, I started to do some research.

I'll lay dollars to doughnuts, aza is definitely an issue when combined with cannabis. My theory? The cannabis plant uses hyper/dynamic accumulator functions to bind the aza molecule intact to new tissue. Some folks have found aza tainted cannabis to be easier for them to handle, if they break up the flowers and expose it to flourescent light for 12-24hrs. This jives with how aza is supposed to break down under light, with breaking up the flowers allowing light penetration to more of the plant tissue.

So, if you're having really bad issues with it be sure to get tested and treated for H.Pylori. You'll feel amazingly better within 2 weeks. Especially if you've suffered from it for a decade like I have.
:tiphat:
 

therevverend

Well-known member
Veteran
One thing I find interesting is that it's so toxic to children but not adults. Humans are relatively large animals and can take a lot of toxins. Otherwise most of us would be dead. I found this interesting:

In other countries, neem oil has been used on cats for flea control. Some adverse reactions have been reported. Symptoms include feeling sluggish, excessive salivation, impaired movement, trembling, twitching, and convulsions. Some of the cats died. However, most of them recovered within 1 to 5 days.

My cat had a nasty growth on his forehead. My grandma put some neem oil on it and it healed up after a couple weeks. She believed it was the neem oil but I don't believe it was. The reason it wouldn't heal, he kept scratching off the scab and making it worse. The neem is bitter, one taste of it on his paws cured him of scratching at it. Gives an idea for curing bad pet habits.

The problem here is a lack of research. There needs to be studies into cannabis and neem oil considering how common it is. Otherwise all the talk for and against it is interesting but not enough science behind it. As an earlier poster stated I'd love to see stats on what % of the population is allergic. Once again it shows how little regulation really goes into insecticides, not so much that I'm worrying about the Neem (but of course I am), but all the other nasty shit they approve.

As for the argument that it's in our foodstuff but we don't get sick. I do get sick, no idea if it's from neem oil. Once a month, give or take a few months, sometimes several times a month. I'll get a horrible migraine headache and lay in bed puking my guts out for a day or two. Feel like my brain is pushing against my skull. I'm not the only person I know who suffers from this affliction. I doubt it's from neem oil but it's one of the dozens of possibilities and we don't know how common Neem allergies are.

One thing I found annoying when I was looking for information on Neem Oil. There's anti-pseudo science websites out there that trash fake medicine. I checked a couple out they were saying this woman peddling skin care products had contaminated her stuff with a INSECTICIDE! Commonly used on fruits and vegetables. Guess what it was.

There was another dentist guy saying he could keep your teeth from rotting with a magical ingredient. Once again the pseudo-science de-bunker was horrified to learn an INSECTICIDE was involved. If he'd done his research he would have known that neem oil has been used on skin and teeth for thousands of years and it's relatively safe.
https://badsciencedebunked.com/tag/neem-oil/

There's also lots of websites saying Neem oil is perfectly safe for children and babies. That the toxic amount is huge and there's no way a baby could eat that much of their product. This one says their diluted mixture is good for pregnant women as well. Some of their links site rubbing neem oil mixes on teething babies gums.
https://www.bebebalm.com/single-pos...afe-for-the-skin-of-babies-and-pregnant-women
I looked into baby toxicity studies and 5 ml, a teaspoon, is enough to poison a baby. Crazy.

I'll stick to what I said earlier. I'd use the stuff for a small period of time in Veg, if I needed it. I wouldn't ever use the stuff in flowering and I wouldn't give it to my plants as a preventative, dousing them with it to keep them from getting a problem.

I know growers love preventative spraying but it's a bad idea for another reason. Insects, microbes, or whatever get resistant if constantly exposed to a substance. I'm sure it's a matter of time before we get neem resistant insects as much as the agricultural industry uses is.
 

GGNo2

Member
I've always got a bottle of neem incase I need it. I've been using it since I first started growing. I honestly have never had any negative effect from using in my plants.
 

DTOM420

Member
Hey, if it worries you....definitely don’t use it. You gotta reply on your own “gut” feelings to know what’s safe for you. Personally, I haven’t had any issues nor known anyone with CHS. Thankfully, because it sounds awful. For me, though, Neem works great and I haven’t seen a single shred of valid scientific evidence that it’s dangerous or causes issues. So, until I see something more that internet chatter and stoner science, I’m going to continue to use Neem products; in my normal moderation. If I ever meet someone with CHS I’ll make sure to let them know my flower was grown with some Neem products.
 

Raho

Active member
Veteran
I agree 100% with therevv's conclusions. Couldn't have put it better myself.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
No thanks...not in my lungs. Cough, cough.
LOL good point! :D


I've been researching russet mites, and finding sulfur is the probably the most economical and useful tools for dealing with them and regular mites. FYI: You can't use sulfur on plants which have oil on them, they need at least 30 days. :tiphat:
 

chronic82

Member
I've noticed all the people with CHS I've come across (who have very bad symptoms), are also suffering from overblown H.Pylori infections in their gut. This is much more common in places with poor quality food like the USA.

Those who are not sensitive, you'll still hear them bitch about football injuries and such flaring up... within a couple days of beginning to use cannabis with neem/aza on it. It causes muscle tension all over your body. Just not a lot for those non-sensitive. Digestion issues you'd attribute to 2 days of too many chips and such, it's rather subtle.

Had I not suffered from H.Pylori AND CHS from aza, I never would have connected the two. It was only after I spontaneously vomited one day, after spraying an aza product, I started to do some research.

I'll lay dollars to doughnuts, aza is definitely an issue when combined with cannabis. My theory? The cannabis plant uses hyper/dynamic accumulator functions to bind the aza molecule intact to new tissue. Some folks have found aza tainted cannabis to be easier for them to handle, if they break up the flowers and expose it to flourescent light for 12-24hrs. This jives with how aza is supposed to break down under light, with breaking up the flowers allowing light penetration to more of the plant tissue.

So, if you're having really bad issues with it be sure to get tested and treated for H.Pylori. You'll feel amazingly better within 2 weeks. Especially if you've suffered from it for a decade like I have.
:tiphat:

Do you think a pure neem oil product like Einstein oil would have the same bad effects as the aza products ? Or worse?
 

chronic82

Member
LOL good point! :D


I've been researching russet mites, and finding sulfur is the probably the most economical and useful tools for dealing with them and regular mites. FYI: You can't use sulfur on plants which have oil on them, they need at least 30 days. :tiphat:

Have you tried any of the citric acid based products? If so what are your thoughts on them? You seem to know a lot about pesticides
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Do you think a pure neem oil product like Einstein oil would have the same bad effects as the aza products ? Or worse?
The higher the quality of the neem oil, the higher the azadirachtin content will be. I would say it's worse, since (as far as I'm aware) it's a quality product and works very well.

Have you tried any of the citric acid based products? If so what are your thoughts on them? You seem to know a lot about pesticides
I have not tried citric acid, sorry. I don't see the need. I've definitely looked up a lot of info on pesticides, yes. :)

Potassium based soaps and sulfur will completely eliminate any indoor infestation. If it doesn't, you need to increase your awareness of your methods and fix the gaps you're leaving.

I've never picked up mites from the environment, even though I've lived and grown in several states and several properties now. So far, they've always come from other growers, or on cuts from other growers.

I have eliminated them 100% of the time, and in 15+ years they have only made it to my flower room once. I haven't used anything but soap and water, or alcohol and water, for about 7 years now.

100% elimination, every time. Even the 'resistant' mites some of these growers have been fighting for over a decade. Yes, I've run across growers (and their mites) who've been poisoning their cannabis with worse than neem, for well over 10 years. Some of these guys had/have ridiculously toxic regimens to "keep them at bay." Damn you prohibition and your effect on the flow of correct information!

There is zero need for neem oil in any cannabis garden, ever. :tiphat:
 
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