greek landrace strains

EddieShoestring said:

the man that you need is Gert Lush. He has a massive theory on Greek/Cretan Landraces-he told me it once a few years ago when i was v stonned-it's got Herodotus in it-Sythians-old Cretan anarchists up in the hills. It's a great theory -but i can't remember what it wasapart from the size. It's a 2hour theory-

hopefully he'll come in and duff us up with it

eddieS

Click to expand...

It's got Herodotus in it?

Hi All -- been off-line for a while...

Not that complicated a theory actually. In fact not even a theory, more of a speculation, but I can't see any reason why it could not be valid:

Just after 900 AD the population of Crete had been absolutely decimated -- by pirate raids, Arab raids and all sorts of assorted other raids, to the extent that it needed settlers just to ensure the viability of the island.
The Byzantine emperor Nicephorus Phocas, who was a great strategist, won the island back from the Arabs, and to address the population problem he send in a few thousand Thracians to up the numbers.

There are two issues here: One is that the Thracians are more than likely to have been dedicated smokers, and would have had the same kind of Balkan weed that the Scythians had. Scythians (a whole society of tokers) were present in the Balkan peninsula at the same time as the Slavs arrived, around 600 AD, so there is no question that the weed was present there at the time. Would these settlers not have brought seeds with them? Would you not have taken seed with you if you were off to a beautiful hot island?

Secondly, they were settled (and remained) in the Anogeia- Mylopotamos areas. These are the very same areas that are renown holdouts of modern Cretan growers. Their presence in the area was recorded in the 16 century by travelers, so it seems they kind of stayed put there. They were mercenaries mainly by profession so they kept themselves to themselves unless called upon.

As an aside, it is quite possible that the famous Cretan "lyra" (bowed instrument) was actually a derivative of the very similar Thracian lyra. Hence some of the similarities of the music of these two fairly distant regions.

Now, would not the already brilliant and electric Balkan strains not have thrived under the baking Cretan sun? You betcha...

And that's it really -- that's why I think Greek sativas are so different from the other Levantine hash plants. Their origin, or a great part of it may lie in the north rather than in the south, though the influence of African strains, perhaps by the Arabs themselves cannot be discounted.

Guess we'll never really know till we do the DNA analysis.

EddieShoestring said:

the man that you need is Gert Lush. He has a massive theory on Greek/Cretan Landraces-he told me it once a few years ago when i was v stonned-it's got Herodotus in it-Sythians-old Cretan anarchists up in the hills. It's a great theory -but i can't remember what it wasapart from the size. It's a 2hour theory-

hopefully he'll come in and duff us up with it

eddieS

Click to expand...

proper speculations gert

Gert Lush said:

Hi All -- been off-line for a while...

Not that complicated a theory actually. In fact not even a theory, more of a speculation, but I can't see any reason why it could not be valid:

Just after 900 AD the population of Crete had been absolutely decimated -- by pirate raids, Arab raids and all sorts of assorted other raids, to the extent that it needed settlers just to ensure the viability of the island.
The Byzantine emperor Nicephorus Phocas, who was a great strategist, won the island back from the Arabs, and to address the population problem he send in a few thousand Thracians to up the numbers.

There are two issues here: One is that the Thracians are more than likely to have been dedicated smokers, and would have had the same kind of Balkan weed that the Scythians had. Scythians (a whole society of tokers) were present in the Balkan peninsula at the same time as the Slavs arrived, around 600 AD, so there is no question that the weed was present there at the time. Would these settlers not have brought seeds with them? Would you not have taken seed with you if you were off to a beautiful hot island?

Secondly, they were settled (and remained) in the Anogeia- Mylopotamos areas. These are the very same areas that are renown holdouts of modern Cretan growers. Their presence in the area was recorded in the 16 century by travelers, so it seems they kind of stayed put there. They were mercenaries mainly by profession so they kept themselves to themselves unless called upon.

As an aside, it is quite possible that the famous Cretan "lyra" (bowed instrument) was actually a derivative of the very similar Thracian lyra. Hence some of the similarities of the music of these two fairly distant regions.

Now, would not the already brilliant and electric Balkan strains not have thrived under the baking Cretan sun? You betcha...

And that's it really -- that's why I think Greek sativas are so different from the other Levantine hash plants. Their origin, or a great part of it may lie in the north rather than in the south, though the influence of African strains, perhaps by the Arabs themselves cannot be discounted.

Guess we'll never really know till we do the DNA analysis.

Click to expand...

Hi Gert!

I would say that the survival of a scythian weed strain on the Balkans is HIGHLY speculative.
And my main reason is that the thracians were famous for their cult for wine (god Dionysus), but there are no historic traces of smoking cannabis. Which means that even if some of them did, it was very uncommon.
Later when the slavic tribes came, this eventual smoking of cannabis would have become even more uncommon. And, I believe, in order for a landrace to survive through the millenia, it must have a larger group of supporters, so to say.
Alchohol has been ruling the Balkans for some 3 thousand years

There still is a genetic continuum in the wild races though. Agriculture first arrived to Europe via Greece, these early farmers brought cannabis with them about 7000 years ago, although it may already have been a part of the local flora.

Scythians took a different route upon arriving to Europe, they most likely came from the East, north of the Black Sea and brought their own seeds with them. I have no doubt the present day European ruderalis contains a degree of 'Scythian' genes. Cross pollination with wild strains happens constantly and the southernmost spontanea or ruderalis populations seem to be somewhat mixed with cannabis indica (not afganica!) and vice versa.

Morrocan, Lebanese, Turkish, Afghan...you guys forgot about seeds coming in from Africa. Lots of thin leaves in in Africa that could have possibly been brought up to Greece. I know that there are "landrace" sativas in Sicily and Southern Italy that have roots in Africa...

great thread!!!!

Ive recently acquired some landrace seeds from the Greek island of Ikaria, pretty small, shiny seeds...Apparently theyve been there for a long time.
Homegrowing is essential as very little weed is imported there, Im guessing its a hardy strain as Ikaria is a very mountanous, windy place with minimal rain in summer.

Rinse said:

Ive recently acquired some landrace seeds from the Greek island of Ikaria, pretty small, shiny seeds...Apparently theyve been there for a long time.
Homegrowing is essential as very little weed is imported there, Im guessing its a hardy strain as Ikaria is a very mountanous, windy place with minimal rain in summer.

Click to expand...

And the color? Dark?

Thule said:

And the color? Dark?

Click to expand...

Dark but not black, more sandy brown.

I'm planning a trip back to Greece in the fall, and I still have some buds, shake, and seeds stashed away in my cousin's attic in Athens, hehehe. I'll bring some seed back this time and try to link up with old contacts from when I lived in Greece, see what kind of genetics I can get my hands on!

Great thread, keep the discussion going, it is very interesting and feels like we are tracing back to the ancient origins of drug-bred cannabis.

Hi Yoss!

I will agree with you totally on a few things:
a) The Slavs arriving in the Balkan peninsula would have not have had, nor adopted a cannabis culture.

b) Yes, the Thracians were sometimes associated with Dionysiac cults, but I do not see that as mutually exclusive to ecstatic cults that might have involved herb. If the Thracians picked up a culture from the Scythians I would expect that would be in later antiquity, which might have escaped the attention of Helleno-centric historians.

c) I agree that for a landrace to survive through millenia, it should have a fairly broad (or at least intense) support base. So the question comes back to the Thracians: I am under the impression (while being no expert) that that their association with the Scythians was far more productive and long-lasting that that with the Slavs. I admit need to read up more on this. I do remember seeing a painting posted up somewhere which showed an armed confrontation between Slavs and Scythians. The Scythians were shown as barbarian "Conan" types, while the Slavs where portrayed as "knights in shining armor". Whatever nationalistic mythology had inspired the painter LOL, it does illustrate the point that the Balkans at some time were contested by both groups. I am fairly confident that the allegiances of the Thracians would have lent more on the Scythian side, in this case...

Finally, the point that struck me most, was that the "traditional" growing areas of Crete, which survive to this day (even if in a highly degenerate/criminal form) were precisely those that had become the adopted strongholds of the Thracian immigrants. (Anogeia-Mylopotamos)

Now it could be that these guys just found some African strains, and went with those - I do not discount the possibility of African influence at all as I said earlier (I've got a little Greek sample in my drobe ATM, and it does look a bit African... more on this later! ). After all Crete had been decimated by the Barbary pirates, perhaps they planted something that survived. Point is, Greek weed, either from Rhodope, Peloponese or Crete is not of the Levantine Hashplant family, which was introduced much later (in the brief period of commercial hash production), so it must be soething else.

We simply will not know for sure until some proper DNA/genetic tests get done.

yoss33 said:

I would say that the survival of a scythian weed strain on the Balkans is HIGHLY speculative.
And my main reason is that the thracians were famous for their cult for wine (god Dionysus), but there are no historic traces of smoking cannabis. Which means that even if some of them did, it was very uncommon.
Later when the slavic tribes came, this eventual smoking of cannabis would have become even more uncommon. And, I believe, in order for a landrace to survive through the millenia, it must have a larger group of supporters, so to say.
Alchohol has been ruling the Balkans for some 3 thousand years

Click to expand...

Hi CalcioErba2004

No I don't think we forgot the African strains , read my post #22 four posts above yours!

In fact, I agree that a more "sensible", conservative view would definitely see those as candidates, just like you say. Certainly a lot of the Greek sativas carry African-looking traits.

However, I was following a bit more of a speculative thread of thought, as Yoss said, due to the peculiar coincidences of the locations where Cretan herb is grown.

Hi Rinse,

Wow, I'm surprised anything grows in Ikaria!
When the "Meltemi" winds hit those barren Aegean islands in mid-summer you can have a job just staying on your feet - I pity any exposed cannabis bush. Must be in a walled garden!

Should be an interesting grow, though!

Rinse said:

Ive recently acquired some landrace seeds from the Greek island of Ikaria, pretty small, shiny seeds...Apparently theyve been there for a long time.
Homegrowing is essential as very little weed is imported there, Im guessing its a hardy strain as Ikaria is a very mountanous, windy place with minimal rain in summer.

Click to expand...

Gert Lush said:

Hi Rinse,

Wow, I'm surprised anything grows in Ikaria!
When the "Meltemi" winds hit those barren Aegean islands in mid-summer you can have a job just staying on your feet - I pity any exposed cannabis bush. Must be in a walled garden!

Should be an interesting grow, though!

Click to expand...

Guerrilla growing is almost impossible there as Ive found.
Hungry goats, hiking tourists and perhaps worst of all curious locals, quiet place, perhaps too quiet for me.

Greek sativa

Greek sativa

Hi, the following link has a pic of a Greek Sativa.

It is 8 weeks into flower, I guess it needs another 4.
The smells are hard to describe, definitely sativa though, myrtle, pine and a hint of flowery frankincense.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/members/...kalamata-female-progeny-2009-pic-p2-then.html
(Would you say that looks african? Quite a few fan leaves have been removed btw, because of tight space)

I'll let you know more as it happens

Isn't most of Greece fairly hot and dry? Must be some tough plants but wouldn't they be more indica leaning?

michael68 said:

Isn't most of Greece fairly hot and dry? Must be some tough plants but wouldn't they be more indica leaning?

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the point, mate.
You might have expected them to be indica leaning, but they're not!
The indigenous weed of Greece, whether from the Rhodope Balkans in the North, from the Peloponese-Kalamata or from Crete is pretty much sativa to electric sativa. That's why we're debating the source.

There was a short period in the late 19th century when indicas were imported and grown legally for hashish (mainly as a cash crop to counter Egyptian prohibition) but that is well-documented as an import, the "knowledge" of which was brought in by Levantines (from the Lebanon, Asia Minor, etc)

However that's another story altogether, and had little to do with the indigenous Greek weed, which was never put into large scale production, just kept as a tradition in the villages by the old-timers.

hi Gert

good to see you back on the boards

one of these days you are going to e-mail me that Greek farmers pamphlet... right?

the Thracians were definitely smokers (the classical sources support this), and I believe would have brought cannabis with them when they migrated west from C. Asia across the Pontic Caspian steppe... sure, nobody is 100% certain that they were from there, but I think it is obvious they were

as for the Ancient Greeks using cannabis - yes, I think the same influences that brought the Dionysian rites into their culture from the Thracians would have seen a bit of the herb making its way into the more "barbaric" sections of the Greek populace

there is evidence from Greek and Roman sources that cannabis was used recreationally and medicinally by the elite, but very infequently I think

but I think you would struggle to extricate any mainland genetics from the kind of thing grown commercially in the Balkans and neighbouring regions from the early 20th cent. on

yoss33 said:

Hi Gert!

the thracians were famous for their cult for wine (god Dionysus), but there are no historic traces of smoking cannabis. [...] Alchohol has been ruling the Balkans for some 3 thousand years

Click to expand...

The Thracians certainly grew cannabis, as Herodotus himself tells us

I know of at least two other classical sources that refer to them smoking, one ritually and the other recreationally

also, the Balkans were home to large scale commercial cultivation of cannabis from at the latest the early 20th cent. when eradication efforts were stepped up in the Eastern med

archaeological cannabis finds in nearby regions date back to the mid third millenium BCE

I would say cannabis has given alcohol a run for its money as the Balkan's drug of choice