Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

Avenger · Nov 5, 2017

yup, there is no mention of what a deficiency or sufficiency is or even what analysis method is to be used to determine said deficiency.

we all know the large discrepancy between Spectrum Analytical and Logan Labs Boron test results.

the way the NOP rule reads changed in 2015
https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/CS Micronutrients Annotation_final rec.pdf

jidoka · Nov 5, 2017

growingcrazy said:
Slow, in your system is it possible to have something close to a water only mix? Minus additions of Ca and K? Or would you say it is completely reliant upon fertilizing through fertigation and/or topdressing on frequent intervals?

Most crops are able to use what is in the field over the season with minimal additions and finish within expected yield and quality. Cannabis seems to be different in this regard... more so using the soil, once balanced as a more or less substrate to apply large quantities of nutrition upon. Your thoughts?

Also, can you explain/show the formula for calculating the amount of K to move 1% of Ca from the base... Just can't seem to find that one anywhere online...

The answer to the question asked is K will never push Ca off Cec sites. +2 v +1.

This system works like hydroponics. You fertigate basically daily a soluble K which will get taken up ahead of the Ca which hangs out on the Cec sites. When you shut off the soluble k then Ca becomes the choice.

In other words unless you have a lot of available Cec sites k sulfate is not going to fill them. It will stay in solution until it leaches

Skill level has to high to do this

prune · Nov 5, 2017

slownickel said:
Now, let's think about this crop. I figure there is a 400-500% premium if you know what you are doing. Greenhouse passing as indoor, can get $2300-2500 on the west coast, sometimes even more, but only for candy.

So why am I telling you this, probably you already know it... Candy sells, can't give garbage away. Gunna get crowded fast.

Don't take shortcuts.

Hope that was clear enough.

Apple holds 20% of the cellphone market but takes home over 90% of the industry profits.
You can make more off great pounds than average tons*. So choose how much trimming you want to do...

slownickel · Nov 5, 2017

jidoka said:
The answer to the question asked is K will never push Ca off Cec sites. +2 v +1.

This system works like hydroponics. You fertigate basically daily a soluble K which will get taken up ahead of the Ca which hangs out on the Cec sites. When you shut off the soluble k then Ca becomes the choice.

In other words unless you have a lot of available Cec sites k sulfate is not going to fill them. It will stay in solution until it leaches

Skill level has to high to do this

How funny. You don't think potassium can push out calcium? Where did you get that idea? What makes you say this?

If sites are not full, the soil pH is acid.

growingcrazy · Nov 5, 2017

jidoka said:
The answer to the question asked is K will never push Ca off Cec sites. +2 v +1.

This system works like hydroponics. You fertigate basically daily a soluble K which will get taken up ahead of the Ca which hangs out on the Cec sites. When you shut off the soluble k then Ca becomes the choice.

In other words unless you have a lot of available Cec sites k sulfate is not going to fill them. It will stay in solution until it leaches

Skill level has to high to do this

This has been my approach so far. Week 6 start jamming K.

Are you keeping feeds in balance at this time or just additional k on top of your base feed?

Week 3 running 100-350-175 w/ ca @ 300. I am winging all of this.

Feeding veg and flower from the same res, just watering down veg after a feed to dilute the solution slightly. Loving having a dedicated irrigation system for feeds and for just pH'd water.

Thanks Slow for the explanation!

jidoka · Nov 6, 2017

slownickel said:
How funny. You don't think potassium can push out calcium? Where did you get that idea? What makes you say this?

If sites are not full, the soil pH is acid.

Well, my dumb ass thought I learned it in high school physics. A principal called entropy

But do tell...go ahead and answer the original question that you ignored in your first answer. How much K do you use to push off Ca?

jidoka · Nov 6, 2017

growingcrazy said:
This has been my approach so far. Week 6 start jamming K.

Are you keeping feeds in balance at this time or just additional k on top of your base feed?

Week 3 running 100-350-175 w/ ca @ 300. I am winging all of this.

Feeding veg and flower from the same res, just watering down veg after a feed to dilute the solution slightly. Loving having a dedicated irrigation system for feeds and for just pH'd water.

Thanks Slow for the explanation!

Just me...but in lighter weight media I spray K somewhere around the end of stretch (varies widely depending on strain) and then again about 2 weeks later. I always monitor with sap meters.

I find if you overdo K...bottom leaf more than 2 times top...you get mites period. If you let bottom leaf fall behind top you get airy buds (high quality but no yield and hard to trim)

Then again, what do I know. Take it for what you think it is worth.

slownickel · Nov 6, 2017

jidoka said:
Well, my dumb ass thought I learned it in high school physics. A principal called entropy

But do tell...go ahead and answer the original question that you ignored in your first answer. How much K do you use to push off Ca?

Figured that you of all people pushing your soil to 22% K would have figured out soil science a bit better.

Limeygreen · Nov 6, 2017

Wouldn't you like to start increasing K and P right around bud sites, or just before budsites, start to define? Akin to how slow is saying to start bumping it up, flowers/fruits start taking a lot of potassium as they grow but without sufficient calcium during this time quality will suffer. I personally don't think it should wait until week 6 nor jam it all at once, gentle and steady would make more sense to me.

EasyGoing · Nov 6, 2017

Well, getting signs of my quality.

Buds are tight, smells are nice. My rosin is dripping gold! Yields are high. Quality isn't where i would like it, but better than most years. Got more work to do, but so far pretty darn happy. Only like 20lbs trimmed, so long way to go. My best work is still hanging, so time will tell how I did, but early signs are positive.

Avenger · Nov 6, 2017

Also, can you explain/show the formula for calculating the amount of K to move 1% of Ca from the base... Just can't seem to find that one anywhere online...

It always takes 1 mole of charge to replace 1 mole of charge regardless of the ion carrying the charge.

slownickel · Nov 6, 2017

Limeygreen said:
Wouldn't you like to start increasing K and P right around bud sites, or just before budsites, start to define? Akin to how slow is saying to start bumping it up, flowers/fruits start taking a lot of potassium as they grow but without sufficient calcium during this time quality will suffer. I personally don't think it should wait until week 6 nor jam it all at once, gentle and steady would make more sense to me.

One never wants a K deficiency, EVER. Unlike a Ca deficiency, one can catch up to a K deficiency, but the issue is why? Why these nutty strategies? In an annual like corn, if you missed K early, you get nothing or very little. Same with this crop. There is no reason to have a K deficiency unless of course you are so crazy trying to get your Ca up you have nothing else that worked. But that is just someone that doesn't know how to make numbers or their mix is so wet, that they never can get Ca uptake. Which is probably a much bigger issue than most realize. There is a definite strategy of bringing up K to mature during veg and then again as you get further into flowering. Real clear.

Same issues with B. Folks stuck on one lab that has a notorious history of reporting low B in the soil and toxic B at the same time in foliar samples. That is not science, that is a bad lab. There are lots of them. The result? Folks want to start guessing. Yeah, let me know how that works out.

I am realizing that most people don't want to or maybe plain and simple don't know how to make their numbers, much less a strategy on how to achieve it. Easier to come in a talk their "simpleton" approach based on no science other than maybe using a K meter (which it is clear that most using have no idea what drives it or makes it move).

Agriculture is not linear thinking, there is cause and effect. Can't figure out the real results of the effect if you don't know what caused you to get there.

reppin2c · Nov 6, 2017

prune said:
Apple holds 20% of the cellphone market but takes home over 90% of the industry profits.
You can make more off great pounds than average tons*. So choose how much trimming you want to do...

How much did Wal-Mart make last year? People want cheap. And these same people are ignorant. You should see when you show someone deps. After finally just giving up "yes it's indoor"

On a good weather year even average growers have good product. On a shit year the strong will prevail.

Limeygreen · Nov 6, 2017

I am glad you ignored my question completely, who was talking about deficiencies? I simply asked about timing of increasing the K not being low on it but thank you for talking down to me, I guess with your advice I should go buy a K metre.

jidoka · Nov 6, 2017

Avenger said:
It always takes 1 mole of charge to replace 1 mole of charge regardless of the ion carrying the charge.

True. But K ain’t pushing Ca off cec sites. You get 22% K by a) having room for it or b) having a fuckton in soln that you have not leached yet.

What Slow always leaves out of that story is where my K was at the start of the grow. 1.5%. In fact he told me I did not have enough K to grow a crop when I posted the Logan test (aea thread).

All I had to do to drop K was run water through that soil. so I learned that lesson.

This yr I let the K def happen. The result was the bcd plants I posted pics of. Did it hurt em? Maybe but not damn much. In fact not one person called K def...I did

I am not a perfect grower. I wanna know which side to err on

I love me meters

Avenger · Nov 6, 2017

But K ain’t pushing Ca off cec sites.

It will if it is high enough concentration in the soil solution and comes in close enough proximity to the actual exchange site.

For example, look at how ammonium is used in the lab to knock off any and all cations and saturate the exchange sites with ammonium.

Use enough solution, with high enough concentration of potassium ions and you can exchange potassium for calcium.

Look at ion exchange water softeners, they exchange sodium or potassium (depending on the salt used to regenerate the resin) for calcium and/or magnesium.

In theory, it is simple charge balance. In practice in the FIELD, it may not be so easy to accomplish, but the laws of thermodynamics do say it is possible.

In reality it may be a short lived reality, depending on the soil solid minerals and what ions they contribute to the soil solution naturally. I mean if the solid phase of the soil is constantly supplying more calcium than potassium, our corrective drench probably will not make a lasting difference.

jidoka · Nov 6, 2017

Fair enough. That is why I always ask you questions.

Makes me believe in foliar K even more

reppin2c · Nov 7, 2017

Maybe I shouldn't say somethings

EasyGoing · Nov 7, 2017

Edit: crap, me too.

slownickel · Nov 7, 2017

Limeygreen said:
I am glad you ignored my question completely, who was talking about deficiencies? I simply asked about timing of increasing the K not being low on it but thank you for talking down to me, I guess with your advice I should go buy a K metre.

Limey,

Tried to answer a couple of folks at once. Did not mean to talk down to you. Potassium timing is of course, critical.

Start with K at about 3 to 4% of your bases early on. I have seen guys show up with 1.5% up to 15% starting up. Not good. As you go further and further into veg, no problem pushing K to 8% or so. K early needs to be slow and calculated. Going overboard on K early will have grave repercussions later as it blocks and PUSHES off Ca (regardless of what Jidoka wants to believe)

Prior to flowering, we push more Ca to get Ca high again, say 83-85% Ca. At that point, we lower K applications greatly, but DO NOT STOP them unless you went way over board.

Once you are two weeks into flowering, time to push K hard again, slowly increasing K to eventually finish up at 7 or
8% K.

You can push K and not get K uptake, this is for several reasons. One is P and another is Mn.

K meters in the hands of the wrong people are worthless. I guess it might be good for those that refuse to use a soil analysis and want to see when they finally are getting K uptake.

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