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Old 08-22-2020, 02:16 PM #111
Montuno
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Originally Posted by tobedetermined View Post
Montuno

Note the last sentence of that FB post:

Fotografia: Pipa del siglo XVIII, que no es la descrita anteriormente

It would seem that they described one pipe & posted an image of a much later one.
You're right!
Anyway, I leave the link for the bibliography
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Old 08-22-2020, 02:18 PM #112
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I can't open this one because it's a PDF:

F. Valdés Fernández :"Mas hachís "

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...-4eWigljw2UZQC
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Old 08-22-2020, 11:22 PM #113
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The pdf is a discussion about the pipes & their relative dating in respect to the controversy over the date smoking started etc. While many of the examples were found in locations that could easily have been tainted by later post-Reconquista occupation, several pipes cannot be as easily explained away.

In other words, they don’t know the exact dates either but they are attributed to the 11th, 12th & 13th Centuries.
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Old 08-23-2020, 06:03 AM #114
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I know a few from Minnesota that did.
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Old 08-23-2020, 09:39 AM #115
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Cannabis and tobacco have longstanding roles in African societies. Despite botanical and pharmacological dissimilarities, it is worthwhile to consider tobacco and cannabis together because they have been for centuries the most commonly and widely smoked drug plants. Cannabis, the source of marijuana and hashish, was introduced to eastern Africa from southern Asia, and dispersed widely within Africa mostly after 1500. In sub-Saharan Africa, cannabis was taken into ethnobotanies that included pipe smoking, a practice invented in Africa; in Asia, it had been consumed orally. Smoking significantly changes the drug pharmacologically, and the African innovation of smoking cannabis initiated the now-global practice. Africans developed diverse cultures of cannabis use, including Central African practices that circulated widely in the Atlantic world via slave trading. Tobacco was introduced to Africa from the Americas in the late 1500s. It gained rapid, widespread popularity, and Africans developed distinctive modes of tobacco production and use. Primary sources on these plants are predominantly from European observers, which limits historical knowledge because Europeans strongly favored tobacco and were mostly ignorant or disdainful of African cannabis uses. Both plants have for centuries been important subsistence crops. Tobacco was traded across the continent beginning in the 1600s; cannabis was less valuable but widely exchanged by the same century, and probably earlier. Both plants became cash crops under colonial regimes. Tobacco helped sustain mercantilist and slave-trade economies, became a focus of colonial and postcolonial economic development efforts, and remains economically important. Cannabis was outlawed across most of the continent by 1920. Africans resisted its prohibition, and cannabis production remains economically significant despite its continued illegality.


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Old 08-24-2020, 03:08 PM #116
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Nice map Mexcurandero, one of the ones I was looking for. I've heard that cannabis reached west Africa at a surprisingly late date, in some areas not until after WW2. If the pipes discovered in Sub-Saharan East Africa that have been dated to the pre-Columbian era prove authentic it wouldn't be that surprising it's went unnoticed. Considering how little interest and $ has been spent exploring the history of that part of the world. Here's a link to a bit in the Canna Chronicles about African earth pipes and smoking. It could be that earth bongs are a truly ancient way of smoking, considering all you need is a hole to burn the cannabis in and a hole to suck it out of. Very simple. The problem as always is lack of ancient documentation.

https://www.thecannachronicles.com/drinking-smoke-1921/

Those latest links from Montuno clear up quite a bit about cannabis in the Muslim period in Spain. It looks like the pipes come from the Calle Plateria in Murica.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calle_...C3%ADa_(Murcia)

They found the pipes digging through rubble under the streets and dredging the harbor, the same way this early collection of tobacco pipes I posted about earlier was found in Venice. The simplest and most likely solution was that they came from a later time then they estimated, since dating a pipe you pulled up from the bottom of a bay isn't easy. You get more interest and $ the older you can claim something is.

The bit about Muhammed IV is great, it's certainly 20th century drug war hyperbole.

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Even Ibn Jatib tells an anecdote of the Nasrid period. 'In it Sahib al-Surta, a police lieutenant of Muhammad IV, boasted of having extirpated the vices of the capital before the sovereign, before which he indicated all precision the places and times in which the smokers of hashish, because he went every night to smoke with them.
Apparently there was a Drug War in medieval Spain. The evil cannabis users were smoked out by the Muslim version of the DEA, the cops following their villainous ruler and boss as he spent his nights travelling around the secret places the nefarious drug addicts gathered. It sounds like modern drug war propaganda, were there really laws against hashish in medieval Spain? It shows that cannabis users were looked down on by the average Spanish Moor, much like they've been looked down on throughout history. They're using it to smear a hated ruler, whether he really was a hashish eater is probably debatable. It's like saying Trump's a cokehead. There's also sources that say he was crazy, dressed poorly.

The poet mentioned, Ibn Jatid, is the most famous poet to come out of Al Andalus. His poetry was full of satire, verging on the licentious, aimed at religious experts and it looks like people in power. I'm thinking the original toned down the drug war stuff, was more about what a stoned incompetent loser the king was.

It's interesting to contrast the two differing viewpoints throughout history, the sketchy narcotic and the common friendly hemp. As I mentioned earlier hemp was a huge crop in medieval Spain, of huge economic importance. The earliest evidence of hemp cultivation in Spain comes from 3000-2200 BCE, supported by textile remains from Murcia at Abrigo de los Carboneros or 'shelter of the coal miners'. As well as deposits in the ancient necropolis site of Coll del Moro, about 6 km west of Tarragona in NE Spain dated to the Iberian Iron Age. (800 BCE-50 CE) In the case of the textiles from the coal miners' site, it is described as an elaborate bandage of woven 'canamo' (cannabis hemp) wrapped around the head of a female corpse found laid on planks of walnut wood and a mat of esparto grass. The strongest archeobotanial evidence of cannabis in ancient Iberia from northern Spain where a recent multidisciplinary study of aquatic sediments was undertaken at Lake Estanya and two other nearby lakes in the external range of the Mediterranean pre-Pyrenees. This research provides evidence of ancient hemp retting to extract fibers and indicates hemp cultivation started in this region in the 5th and lasted until the 9th century CE.

I got another message from the museum. It's good news, they want to help me.

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Don't worry, as I consider this to be a very interesting topic, so I'm happy to help you.

I inform you that I have transferred the information from your last email to the competent personnel. Once said staff provide me with an answer, I will write to you again.
I'll check out your link later Montuno it looks like interesting stuff. I've seen that title in most of the bibliographies so it's nice to finally have the source. The problem with much of what we're discussing is that it's conjecture, the actual records are quite slim. It's a big problem with cannabis history in general, the people who write the books have never been cannabis users and they rarely mention it unless it's for titillation, humor, or fear. It's colored by the expectations that the author's audience will have. The bit about the King and his drug czar is typical, I'm guessing the original poem is only a line or two.

At least hemp wasn't censored from the books until recently, but it was so common in ancient times as to be invisible. Still, for every reference to drug cannabis you get a hundred references to hemp cultivation. I don't hold out much hope for evidence of a drug crop of any great size materializing for medieval Spain, it would likely be like it is today. Individuals or small groups cultivating along with an import trade from Africa. Real history is made up of people doing stuff and it usually doesn't get recorded, how many Sufis grew how many plants in what years doesn't make a best-seller or good propaganda.
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Old 09-18-2020, 10:18 PM #117
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Not sure how historically correct History Channels "Vikings" show is, but in Season 1 Episode 8, they all get shitfaced on ale and eat shrooms, most like Psilocybe Semilanceata aka liberty caps.
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