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Potassium Lockout - Pics included

V

voidpainter

Hello,


Having problems with 2 plants out of 5.


Im guessing K lockout.



Soil mix:
50% potting soil (peat, coir, composted wood fibre & bark)

30% aeration with perlite
20% homemade compost


Added in the mix:
- neem cake
- kelp meal
- local high P guano N 3% -P 12%, K %2, Ca 28%, Mg 1%
- crab meal
- grinded malted barley

- gypsum
- crushed oyster shells
- local zeolite Si 63%, Al 14%, Ca 5%, Fe 4%, K 2%, Na 1%, Mg, 1%



3 gallon pots. Never had serious issues with this mix, maybe on ocassion if my hand was too heavy with ammendments.



Plants are currently 37 days into flower (out of 70).


Symptoms started showing around day 21.


Sometime before day 21 they were accidentally watered with citric acid added in water (can't tell how much).


Did a slurry test and it came out at 6.0 pH but the ph meter was less than 5$ from aliexpress (it stopped working yesterday btw). So the slurry test might have been even less than 6.0 pH.



I now water with un-Ph'd spring water (7.8pH) since day 21 until run-off.


I am not sure if the symptoms are getting worse or not!!


None of the other plants were affected.


What I am thinking is this (please bear with me Im not an expert, I just grow for cancer medicine):


1) could citric acid acidify the medium to the point of K lockout as seen in the pictures?



2) Is this from too much Calcium? I think I might have a lot of Ca in there, maybe something spiked in those 2 pots? Too much gypsum? Or ... Could citric acid chelate stuff or make Ca more available?


3) Do I flush with gypsum and after the pots dry a bit I apply a kelp tea for the K or water with molassess? But in case this is from too much Ca gypsum will only add more Ca right?



4) Do nothing? The bud growth compared to the other plants looks the same and I think the flower leaf growth is nice green.



1 week ago:

picture.php



Today:
picture.php
 
T

Teddybrae

Hello

1: obtain a soil pH test kit. Cheap.

2: Gypsum will not add Ca until your pH is right.

3: If you flush with Gypsum it will carry away water soluble nutrients and you will for sure have a mineral imbalance. THIS MAY ALREADY BE YR TROUBLE IF GYPSUM IS PART OF THE SOIL MIX.
 
J

jaded1

Looks more like a heavy mag def to me.Try giving her some Epsom salts and see if it helps.
 
welldone

welldone

Active member
I would also say mag def and a good flush will not harm them and now you also can come back to check your photos in a few days time to see if theres a difference so at least now your on track to the fix hopefully it gets fixed soon good luck :)
 
h.h.

h.h.

Active member
Veteran
I’ve gotten that by using low pH fermentations. Plants looked normal otherwise. I just let it go. It was only temporary.

I think a lot depends on your soil mix. A well aerated mix is much more forgiving. I’m not completely sure. It may be the aeration amendments (zeolite) themselves serving to buffer. When I add a low pH fermentation to plants already struggling in dense soil, they’ve been known to die. That’s my guess.

With that a little Epsom wouldn’t hurt.
 
f-e

f-e

Well-known member
Mentor
Veteran
From the shop full of additives list, it looks like Mg. While the photo is telling others it's Mg. So it looks a lot like the issue. You can correct that quickly with a foliar spray. Then add it to your soil if it proves to be true. The pics look like zn to, which is also not represented well on your shopping list. So if the foliar Mg does nothing, a foliar of zn would be my next try.
 
V

voidpainter


There is enough magnesium in the mix, I cant see a good argument as to why it would be best to add more stuff in.

If there wasnt why would the other 3 plants and 50 before them turn out with no Mg deficiencies?

The symptoms started on top of plants on the freshest growth and started progressing towards the bottom of the plant.

There was NO interveinal chlorosis, it started with yellow tips, then edges, then the yellowing started to progress from the tips and edges towards the midde of the leaves.

There’s even visible brown necrotics dots close to the leaf tips - Also indicating K lockout.

Why would it be reasonable to add epsom if the medium pH is disrupted? Sorry all but this does not make any sense to me.

I am talking about an obvious LOCKOUT - symptoms on new growth / top plant. How could this be DEFICIENCY. Are we clear on these definitions?

I did another ph test with borrowed meter and its showing 6.1, could be the soil was at 5.8 when shit hit the fan and is now coming back to it - i cant be sure.

Low pH medium will lockout Ca, K, Mg and P.

This post after this line might trigger some people and is considered a rant
————————-

Was my post even read in full? I mean, I appreciate replies but if you’re gonna half ass it then don’t even bother wasting YOUR time nor MY time.

I thought posting this in the organic section will steer away from cal/mag preachers for every problem people post up here. I know how a mag deficiency looks like and how it starts but unfortunately this isnt it. And its not even a deficiency as i clearly stated stuff was watered with an acid solution.

 How is this mag issue? Maybe its not clear on these pics, the bottom and mid leaves of the plants are dark green, typical for this strain I’ve been growing for 3 years. All 5 clones from same mother, only 2 affected - the closest to reach with a water bottle too while we are at it - could have been watered with that acid solution more than the 3 further back.

----------------------



reposted, lost access on pc for that acc. nevermind..
 
V

voidpainter

f-e said:
From the shop full of additives list, it looks like Mg. While the photo is telling others it's Mg. So it looks a lot like the issue. You can correct that quickly with a foliar spray. Then add it to your soil if it proves to be true. The pics look like zn to, which is also not represented well on your shopping list. So if the foliar Mg does nothing, a foliar of zn would be my next try.
Click to expand...


I emphasize again, why hasn't the issue presented itself in the previous 50 grows of the same cut with the same mix?


Why is it only after watered with a low pH solution?


Why only 2 out of 5 plants?


What would you recommend for a viable Mg and Zn organic amendment then?


(i apologize for ranting but i'm pent up with not being able to access stuff due to shit isolation)



:tiphat:
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
You're correct, it is definitely not a mag issue. Mag deficiency is the number one def I've dealt with over the years, and this is not it. Wish I could be more helpful, but I'm pretty much :lurk:
 
Fitzera

Fitzera

Active member
Did you give the soil time to cook before this run? Are you adding microbes? It seems to me you're doing a super soil...do you consider it living soil? Is that your goal?
I ask because I dont even check the ph of my soil or inputs, I let the soil do the work. And a proper living soil shouldnt give you issues with a 6ph imo.
It seems odd to me that it's only these pots out of the whole batch, and only a problem now. It could be due to the citric acid i suppose, I would give it a week with a proper ph water and see what happens. If it continues then i would start looking at options other than ph.



On further reading, how much calcium did you add by volume? You definitely could have too much calcium in ratio to the other elements, but it's hard to come to that conclusion without knowing volumes.

Also you didnt really elaborate on the citric acid. Was it fully dissolved and mixed in? If not, it is possible that those pots got a higher concentration and that is exacerbating the problem.
 
Last edited:
V

voidpainter

Yes i let it rest for a month, the whole batch is generally thriving in it.

Like I said, only 2 plants out of 5 of the same cut. I have other strains in there too and some selectively seeded cuts too, no problems with them.

As I have said I spotted symptoms around day 21 of Flowering, these have been in the same pot since the cuttings rooted, all together around 55 days now.

Not a single issue prior to the citric acid accident.

My GUESS is these 2 were more thoroughly watered with citric acid as they are easier and closer to reach in the tent.

I don’t consider it true living soil, I think 3 gallon pots arent sufficient for a proper living soil.

I dont measure pH either, I did it as the symptoms started to see where I am at. And i posted the pH as people trying to help always want to know these values.
 
V

voidpainter

More pics of earlier/mid stages of symptoms, tell me how this is a Mg DEFICIENCY again and not LOCKOUT of K? Maybe lockout of K, Mg and P?


picture.php



picture.php




picture.php



How EXACTLY will epsom solve this? I really want to understand. Help me understand. I just don't see it as a solution.


I have watered plain water since and before the accident.


I just want to know if cholorosis and necrosis on affected leaves DUE TO LOCKOUT will run it's course no matter what, even though if the problem might have been corrected with "normal" watering till run-off?


I emphasize again, 2 out of 5 plants! There is no visible difference in bud growth nor size!!
 
V

voidpainter

Fitzera said:
Did you give the soil time to cook before this run? Are you adding microbes? It seems to me you're doing a super soil...do you consider it living soil? Is that your goal?
I ask because I dont even check the ph of my soil or inputs, I let the soil do the work. And a proper living soil shouldnt give you issues with a 6ph imo.
It seems odd to me that it's only these pots out of the whole batch, and only a problem now. It could be due to the citric acid i suppose, I would give it a week with a proper ph water and see what happens. If it continues then i would start looking at options other than ph.



On further reading, how much calcium did you add by volume? You definitely could have too much calcium in ratio to the other elements, but it's hard to come to that conclusion without knowing volumes.

Also you didnt really elaborate on the citric acid. Was it fully dissolved and mixed in? If not, it is possible that those pots got a higher concentration and that is exacerbating the problem.
Click to expand...


Hi,


the mix per cubic feet:


1 cup gypsum
1 cup crushed oyster shells
2 cups zeolite


1 cup neem
1 cup kelp
1 cup crab

1 cup malted barley
half cup bat guano


Regarding your edit: it's completely possible the citric wasn't dissolved properly but I have no clue at all.



In case this is from too much Ca, how would you proceed?
 
Fitzera

Fitzera

Active member
voidpainter said:
Hi,


the mix per cubic feet:


1 cup gypsum
1 cup crushed oyster shells
2 cups zeolite


1 cup neem
1 cup kelp
1 cup crab

1 cup malted barley
half cup bat guano


Regarding your edit: it's completely possible the citric wasn't dissolved properly but I have no clue at all.



In case this is from too much Ca, how would you proceed?
Click to expand...

I'm definitely no expert, I'm pretty much winging it all the time. Dank.frank would be the guy.
But for me, I have been purposely adding more calcium in my mix and throughout the grow, aiming to reach 80% give or take. But I also increase other amendments to keep a balance. Here again, I'm no expert, and am winging it by feel more than anything else.
I know in a solution, sulphur reacts with calcium and precipitates out...I dont know if this works in soil in the same regard. Whenever I have questions like this I go back to threads on the subject.

All that said, I'm leaning towards it being the citric acid more than anything else. You might be on the verge of too much calcium and the ph shift then made it an issue...but I cant make that conclusion. In the past, I'm guilty of adding more things to try and fix the issue, but less is always more. I would address it as a ph issue first. Rule that out and go from there.
 
V

voidpainter

Fitzera said:
I'm definitely no expert, I'm pretty much winging it all the time. Dank.frank would be the guy.
But for me, I have been purposely adding more calcium in my mix and throughout the grow, aiming to reach 80% give or take. But I also increase other amendments to keep a balance. Here again, I'm no expert, and am winging it by feel more than anything else.
I know in a solution, sulphur reacts with calcium and precipitates out...I dont know if this works in soil in the same regard. Whenever I have questions like this I go back to threads on the subject.

All that said, I'm leaning towards it being the citric acid more than anything else. You might be on the verge of too much calcium and the ph shift then made it an issue...but I cant make that conclusion. In the past, I'm guilty of adding more things to try and fix the issue, but less is always more. I would address it as a ph issue first. Rule that out and go from there.
Click to expand...


Having read around 200 pages of slownickel's thread and TonyGreen adding gypsum by the pounds to lower his EC, I doubt it's Ca myself and I am also not an expert, just trying to grow medicine for the family.


Like I said, they have been watered with spring water (7.4pH as measured with a borrowed meter) for 2 weeks now from the accident.


Having almost no experience with defficiencies since I ,I am not sure whether the afflicted leaves will cannibalize themselves even if the problem is fixed. I am looking at the bud growth and the leaves of the bud growth and to me they seem fine.


Let me rephrase that into a question:


Will chlorosis / necrosis / symptoms persist for a certain amount of time ( a week or more?) even after the problem was addressed and corrected?
 
superpedro

superpedro

Member
Veteran
Sure looks like K lockout to me.
If you never experienced this before. Used the same soil mix. Had a mishap with acid..
Low pH = K lockout.
Smoking gun?

They are growing fast in this stage of flowering and that means high nutrient demand. Lockouts at this stage, even if corrected fast, can in my experience cause problems.

I don't know enough about organic acids, their effect on heavy metals and soil biology to say if any of this would be effected. But to me it looks like a rather simple low-pH problem.

Leaves will not recover, but the yellowing should stop.
Look for green tips in new growth, to see if problem is fixed.

I would do no such thing as flushing or cutting down on nutrients. Your plants needs their food at this stage.
Often a nutrient solution is a stonger pH buffer.
Evidence from your previous grow and those plants not effected tells me what you do normally works. Back to plan A.
Would be very careful NOT to add extra Ca or Mg.

I would myself go a bit heavy on nutes in a case like yours.
Lack of nutrients often shop up as one element at first. At your stage this is often K.
If you have a small lockout, and cut the feeding of the very element you need. You could be making the problem worse.

2 out of 5. Then it is probably a matter of the pH being just low enough to trigger problems to some. May be down to a minute difference in amount of acid they each recieved, or how well the soil is mixed.
Again this is a "back to plan A" piece of evidence for me.
 
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