organics...soil beds vs. pots?

fatburt · Sep 1, 2014

im thinking about my winter grow already and i have decided to go back to organics.....to me its an easy way to grow..i have never grown in a soilbed indoors,but want to try...what are the pros and cons?

ill be growing in a 4.5 x 4.5' bed,dont know how deep i should go....
1k light in 5.5 ' tent,passive intake 400 cfm fan,ill be growing an nl#5 cross and ill be going sog...how many plants can i do?

dank.frank · Sep 1, 2014

If you are going to keep the bed in place and plan to recycle...I'd say go 15".

Based on advice from Microbeman and the hierarchy of soil bacteria, you need at least 12" to foster proper populations...

If you are just going to toss the soil at the end of each round, then you don't really need it any deeper than the average container depth of 8-10"...depending on how big you want your plants to be...

dank.Frank

ct guy2 · Sep 1, 2014

Beds will outperform containers, hands down.

That being said, I would like to see some research showing optimal depth on beds. I've been discussing with friends about the idea of running shallow beds based on some experiential evidence from a few different people....

dank.frank · Sep 1, 2014

Microbeman said:
Think deep. Soil microorganisms function at heirachical levels, each type functioning within the homeostatic strictures of its given levels (e.g. moisture, oxygen, CO2, porosity) passing on components of degradation/digestion to the adjacent heirarchical level. Myriads of fungal structures and pathways remain inplace. Thus, we have the basis for not tilling. The indigenous peoples of the Terra Preta beds claim that so long as the soil below 20 CM remains intact, fertility will remain or be restored. If it were me I'd go for at least 12 inches depth.

The above quote is the post I based my comment on. Took me a bit to find it.

dank.Frank

EclipseFour20 · Sep 1, 2014

I have beds outdoors and containers inside and I like that setup. Outdoors, the roots can go as deep as they want....as I am about 10' above the natural water table (near a river and 8 miles from the ocean). Indoors, my vote would be containers--primarily due to operational and maintenance concerns--and $$$.

Think harvest time...and time/labor involved to prepare the soil/grow medium for the next run. Think insurance against soil critters...like Root Aphids; with beds--all plants become infected...whereas with containers you can control the migration from container to container. Think feeding time...is it easier to control the amount of fertility/nutrition with your current setup by feeding/watering each plant/container....or does general broadcasting throughout the bed work for you? Think soil after harvest...do you dispose the soil/expired rootball after harvest or recyle/amend the soil for future use?

Of course the hidden question is....do you have more time than money? More time...means you will select the option requiring more work/labor/diy in exchange for $$$ savings....whereas if you have more money than time--then why are we talking? As you already know which path you will take--the one that requires less work (aka "path of least resistance")....lol.

fatburt · Sep 2, 2014

so 12-15" deep,
cant wait to learn more

how often do you use teas?

HidingInTheHaze · Sep 2, 2014

I like the idea but it would really depend on how and where it was set up. I could see a heavy bed wrecking the floor if not on concrete and in a bed room or something.

If you have an issue you just can't move that thing fast enough, at least with pots you can pack up and move a grow easy enough. Leaks, weight, security issues, just a few reasons why I stay away from beds.

VerdantGreen · Sep 2, 2014

i see advantages/disadvantages to both really, each grower needs to weight these up and decide. certainly using plenty of soil volume is a good idea either way.

VG

fatburt · Sep 2, 2014

one drawback is you cant move them...
how do the beds drain?

EclipseFour20 · Sep 2, 2014

And...if the bed is too wide/long--working the middle section is a bitch. My outdoor beds are 6'x12' which--if I were to redo them all over again, I would make them 4'x12'...as my arm reach can easily do 24 inches....36 inches requires a bit of stretching, but using planks makes life a whole lot easier.

Indoors right? Then how will the drainage work? Gotta factor this in, the last thing you want to do is raise the "raised beds".

One last thing, figure out your cost to build the bed, then divide by # of plants...and compare that to the cost of containers. The difference (premium/discount) is what you will be paying/saving.

ct guy2 · Sep 2, 2014

The guys I'm friends with that are running beds are going 4'x8' because that's easy from a construction perspective. They pull the plants at the end of the cycle and then mix in perlite, oly compost, fungal compost, and 1/4-1 KIS nutrient pack per yard of soil and then plant in it the next day. They are averaging around 1.8 lbs per 1000W light and are on there 10th run in the same soil.

The tables are on a slight angle at the bottom and drain to waste, though when using blumats there is very little water coming out the bottom (or if you water properly).

Yes, there are disadvantages in regards to being able to move your plants around and weight of the beds. The advantages though are happier, healthier plants in regards to soil volume, easier to maintain moisture content, and less labor.

Root aphids are a tough one, though my buddies had some success using predatory mites. That would be reason to start over on soil though if you couldn't eradicate them.

I don't disagree Frank on going with a deeper bed, but have been playing around with the idea of testing shallower and wider beds based on just some experiential evidence from a few grows I've seen. Of course, this plant is a weed and will pretty well in a variety of conditions it seems.

dank.frank · Sep 3, 2014

You can always build elevated beds that have heavy wire mesh and u-nails to hold it in place. Line them with 6mil plastic on the sides and a heavy duty landscaping fabric on the bottom... place a drainage tray under the trays to catch any run off.

BackyardFarmer makes great raised beds - and the above is pretty much his basic design.

Depending on how big you need the bed to be - it's not always practical to have them elevated though - so the key regardless if there is drainage or not - is to know how much to water your plants in the first place.

Even with bags / containers - I never have run off when I water...UNLESS, I've let the soil get too dry in the first place and it becomes slightly hydrophobic.

dank.Frank

FatherEarth · Sep 4, 2014

If you dont have flow through you will have salt build up.. at least with the soil I run if I dont have run off the EC in the bottom of the pot climbs to levels above 1.0 which isnt good for growth. Microbes to the rescue.. Flow through is good IME. Id go w a 200 gallon smart pot on a 48 x 48"plastic pallet sitting in a 4x4 ebb and flow tray ..with is 50" in diameter and 18" deep holds 1 yard. When you fill the pot choke up the extra inches in diameter on the smart pot by using 2 pieces of equal length 2x2 lumber screwed together over the excess fold one inside the pot one outside....

FatherEarth · Sep 4, 2014

draining the bed tray either with a small pump or a shop vac...possibly a sump that kicks on when water levels reach a certain point..

EclipseFour20 · Sep 4, 2014

Regarding "runoff", here is what I posted in a thread about "flushing" that makes a good argument for some runoff when watering. I seek about 10% runoff when I water (3 oz of runoff in the saucer after delivering 32 oz of water)--but not so when I deliver various feedings (bacteria, enzyme, mineral, fertility, etc)...these I shoot for zero to little run-off.

EclipseFour20 said:
Research the term "leaching fraction"...and you will find things like:

When the build-up of soluble salts in the soil becomes or is expected to become excessive, the salts can be leached by applying more water than that needed by the crop during the growing season. This extra water moves at least a portion of the salts below the root zone by deep percolation (leaching). Leaching is the key factor in controlling soluble salts brought in by the irrigation water. Over time, salt removal by leaching must equal or exceed the salt additions from the applied water or salts will build up and eventually reach damaging concentrations. The questions that arise are how much water should be used for leaching and when should leachings be applied?

and....

Leaching is the application of water or fertilizer
solution beyond what can be held by the substrate.
Applying extra water is recommended to thoroughly
wet the substrate, and to remove excess salts from the
substrate. The leaching fraction is the volume of water
that drains from the substrate relative to the volume of
water applied. For example, if you apply 15 fluid
ounces (0.44 liters) of water, and 3 fluid ounces (0.08
liters) comes out of the bottom of the pot then 3 divided
by 15, then times 100 equals a 20% leaching fraction.
In other words, 20% of the water applied to the plant
came out of the bottom of the pot.
It is generally taught that you should have
between a 10% and 20% leaching fraction with every
watering. However, research has shown that leaching is
not necessary for long periods of time if you have a
good water source (RO or rain water is ideal) and the
fertilizer you use does not contain any harmful salts like
sodium or chloride. There are reasons to leach pots,
usually because the fertilizer concentration that is
applied to the crop is too high for the growth rate, or the
water quality is poor, and unused salts (like calcium,
magnesium, or sodium) build up in the substrate. In
general, whether or not you leach should be based on
soil test information showing salt levels actually
building up in the substrate, rather than because
somebody tells you too.
Leaching rates also affect the optimal fertilizer
concentration for your crop. Research has shown that
the same nutrient levels could be maintained in a peat
based substrate if a solution containing 400 ppm
nitrogen were applied with 50% leaching or a solution
containing 100 ppm nitrogen were applied with 0%
leaching. This research also showed that applying a
solution containing 400 ppm nitrogen with 0% leaching
rapidly lead to salts building up in the substrate to
unacceptable levels, while applying a solution
containing 100 ppm nitrogen with 50% leaching lead to
nutrient deficiencies because there wasn’t enough of the
fertilizer remaining in the pot because of the excess
leaching.

Source: staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPASubstrates.pdf

Moral of the story: If you normally water with little to zero runoff (dry saucer...no leaching), then big mighty flush(es) before harvest is a must; ahhh, but not necessarily true if your practice is to water with a leaching fraction of 10-20%--something that most organic growers seem to do. You might say, that 10-20% is our "flushing".

BTW, calcium, magnesium & sodium are "organic" salts of sorts.

Yep, some sage advice..."In general, whether or not you leach should be based on soil test information showing salt levels actually building up in the substrate, rather than because somebody tells you too." I learned a lot about my soil when I tested my "used" soil after harvest. Google "leaching fraction"...lots out there.

dank.frank · Sep 4, 2014

I spent years refining my personal soil mix - and it took more soil tests than you'd imagine. But if that is your focal point year after year, cycle after cycle - then you get to a point where you know it's right - "dialed" in...

I don't need runoff - because my plants aren't overfed to begin with...

I don't mean that as a slam - but merely as a statement of having put in the time and resources to achieve balance as opposed to making corrective measures during the grow - such as trying to leach out excessive salts.

dank.Frank

EclipseFour20 · Sep 4, 2014

dank.frank said:
I spent years refining my personal soil mix - and it took more soil tests than you'd imagine. But if that is your focal point year after year, cycle after cycle - then you get to a point where you know it's right - "dialed" in...

I don't need runoff - because my plants aren't overfed to begin with...

I don't mean that as a slam - but merely as a statement of having put in the time and resources to achieve balance as opposed to making corrective measures during the grow - such as trying to leach out excessive salts.

dank.Frank

No slam. I am sure almost everyone here has worked years in perfecting their cultivation game--so you are not alone in that camp. My true meaning rests in the last lines of my post (in bold below)--where I tried to suggest: Do something--not because somebody tells you...but because your soil needs/wants it.

Yep, some sage advice..."In general, whether or not you leach should be based on soil test information showing salt levels actually building up in the substrate, rather than because somebody tells you too." I learned a lot about my soil when I tested my "used" soil after harvest. Google "leaching fraction"...lots out there.

Guessed you missed that. Its all good!

fatburt · Sep 4, 2014

i thought you didnt have to flush organics...i have nver ph'd or flushed my organic grows

EclipseFour20 · Sep 4, 2014

fatburt said:
i thought you didnt have to flush organics...i have nver ph'd or flushed my organic grows

Going organics does not mean "salt free". Many organic inputs breakdown to a "salt-like substance", an unintended byproduct of sorts, while others start and finish as salts (ie, magnesium sulfate). Too much (perhaps due to correcting an earlier deficiency) or excess buildup (funky grow medium) and the salt build up in root area occurs--which translates to "no bueno". But do a soil test to confirm/verify your salt content--they can cost as little as $10 each. IMHO, a little runoff when watering is good insurance.

Photosynthesis · Sep 4, 2014

No one ever addresses "stratification" when soil beds get brought up.

I won't run beds until I can find a way to ensure it is not an issue.

Until that time I will mix all of my amendments back into the soil with a soil mixer.

Doesn't mean you can't run some big ass pots though.

organics...soil beds vs. pots?

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