5ml gh flora grow + 5ml gh flora micro + 1 gal water:
n-110
p-6
k-86
mg-7
ca-81
n-110
p-6
k-86
mg-7
ca-81
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ShroomDr's Nutrient Formula Elemental NPK parts-per-million List!
- Thread starter ShroomDr
- Start date
C
Carl Carlson
Gen. Hydro labels:
http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/product_labels.html?PHPSESSID=523ec781d9cbf1368e5c3be312266831
Dyna-Gro has full product info:
http://www.dyna-gro.com
http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/product_labels.html?PHPSESSID=523ec781d9cbf1368e5c3be312266831
Dyna-Gro has full product info:
http://www.dyna-gro.com
Added flora grow, floranova, LiquidkoolBloom, and Flora Micro HardWater.
Interesting anecdotes, flora micro hard water has 1/5 the Ca, of flora micro, and other than that product, all other GH mixes are 1:1 N:Ca. I guess they really are general. I am interested in knowing what 'canna specific' products are going for (CES is lower on Ca, Technaflora was higher).
Interesting anecdotes, flora micro hard water has 1/5 the Ca, of flora micro, and other than that product, all other GH mixes are 1:1 N:Ca. I guess they really are general. I am interested in knowing what 'canna specific' products are going for (CES is lower on Ca, Technaflora was higher).
constant cal same % as n good.
feeding cal separately, better. never w/ phosphates or sulfates.
it is primarily immobile, but can be translocated, as long as transpiration occurs @ fast rate. it flows upward in the plant, w/ water. water goes out of plant, cal gets to top - where deficiencies commonly occur 1st... & where blossom end rot make flowers not so nice...
feeding cal separately, better. never w/ phosphates or sulfates.
it is primarily immobile, but can be translocated, as long as transpiration occurs @ fast rate. it flows upward in the plant, w/ water. water goes out of plant, cal gets to top - where deficiencies commonly occur 1st... & where blossom end rot make flowers not so nice...
I.E. If the humidity is too high, the plant cant transpire, they can't move/use Ca.
That is all important information, but i still wonder what these (alleged) canna specific nute lines use as their ratio vs general hydroponics 1:1. (for instance i think ive seen AN literature, or a Big Mike video, recommending a 1:0.8 N:Ca)
Given the fact that most water is an additional source of Ca, it would seem that a nutrient line with a 1:1 N:Ca, may be anticipating a higher Ca than N. IDK.
What type of process is used by FloraNova, CNS17, ect, to bottle the Ca with the P and S? Conventional wisdom says they are better packaged separately, what are the effects/consequence/etc, of using a '1 part' (other than lack of flexibility)?
Anyone want to take a stab at why manufactures add epsom salt to Carb products?
Are all listings of Potassium Phosphate, actually Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4), or might they be using others (Tripotassium_phosphate K3PO4) (Dipotassium Phosphate K3PO4)? I would imagine MKP is probably the cheapest, i would venture to say it is the most abundant/commercially available.
I need more bloom boosters! Awesome Blossoms and Liquid KoolBloom look similar at first, but they only share Potassium Phosphate (albeit this is probably the majority ingredient in both products).
Just trying to start some dialog. That first post is getting real long, i almost want to make some additional posts where i just evaluate the grow formulas, a post about just the bloom formulas, etc.
Last edited:
C
Carl Carlson
FWIW, the CeS carb product is Uncle John's Blend, not Mag Amped.
I just think it's all really ballsy marketing. Let us compare to the market for nutrients aimed at hydroponic growers of food.
On the Cropking.com website, for example, there is a "single fertilizer" section with 50 pound bags of Mag-Sul selling for $35.68.
There is a "micro-nutrient" section with 5 pound bags of Iron chelate for $52.92.
There is a "hydro-gro" section which is a complete, one part, granular fertilizer brand. $126 - 50 pounds. (terrible price compared to what I paid for the Scotts Peters Hydro-Sol)
CeS Mag Amped retails for upwards of $90 / gallon.
I've met those guys and they seemed like nice people, but c'mon, that's a joke. It's sugar water + epsom salts.
I wish i could get a better look at those labels, the CES Master Brochure.pdf is real blurry, but i think i still see Magnesium Sulfate listed in the Uncle John's Blend.
Im pretty sure i see Fe too, making this the only carb product ive seen with Iron (CES seems to have the highest Fe level, by far).
(FWIW this guy says Humboldt Hydro Honey is 10% Ca. The thread starter only has a handful of posts, and i cant find a gma or picture)
only imaginary tomatoes... never read their techs. no nute is specific. ea cultivar has its own profile.
most water is not additional calcium... the calcium has to be in soluble form to be assimilated by the pl@nt. the calcium in tap may/may not be available. there may also be copper, lead, nitrates, etc that alter final profile.
slurry
see https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3534395&postcount=27
small amounts
if the 1 part shaken well (fnb) warm water and agitating to dissolve may help. most have low cal content. fnb have higher cal & work well for 1-part @ 1-3 tsp gal.
Y
YosemiteSam
Thanks Shroom Dr. Hope harvest and the transplant went well for you.
I am far from an expert in water quality/analysis. However, to say that tap water is not a source of Calcium seems incorrect. What % of Ca, in tap water, do you think will not be usable to the plant?
Again, i am not a water quality expert, (wiki's not a great source), nor do i understand all the intricacies of water chemistry, however calcium carbonate (CES Plant AMP), and dolomite are both used here by growers.
I dont see how someone could say that tap water is not a source of Ca (Given that 85% of homes in the US have 'hard water').
(I have not looked hard, but i have never seen a 'hose-attachment-having garden fertilizer' that lists Ca anywhere near the N levels in the GMA).
calcium sulfate is basically gypsum & not that soluble for plants. only partially solble, added to soils to leach over tyme...
calcium carbonate is basically limestone. depending on particle size, may also not be available to plants. also added to leach over tyme...
both may react w/ other chems to form insoluble solids (precipitates).
depending on how the water is treated & other chemicals added, the calcium may not be available @ all... each muni has its own ph water must be kept @... mostly over 7.0, as humans prefer a 7.0+ ph... this also may affect solubility of the calcium & ability of plant to uptake...
water report of specific water used should give type of cal & mag in water & other elements that may be present...
maybe, not rely on hard water for cal until find form of cal in water, & other elements added to water to make & keep ph over 7.0... muni water is adjusted for humans, not pl@nts...
most simply use ca-n03- or ca-cl- for cal... soluble & immediately available to plants. no need to be converted to other forms for solubility...
cal-nit usually 15%n-19%ca... fnb is 4%n-4%ca.... most of the h!dr0-type ferts (pre-mixed liquids liquids) can only mix small amounts of cal to their mix, or precipitates may form.... dry ferts usually have cal separate. if not, in small amounts...fnb is 'slurry' type that keeps cal suspended in bottom of bottle, to be shaken vigorously (as bottle state) - to get cal into solution, maybe...
what is 'hose-attachmen-having'?
ca is macro-nutrient & needed in large amounts. if not, maybe dont get best final fruit. simpler when just added soluble cal seprately...
calcium carbonate is basically limestone. depending on particle size, may also not be available to plants. also added to leach over tyme...
both may react w/ other chems to form insoluble solids (precipitates).
depending on how the water is treated & other chemicals added, the calcium may not be available @ all... each muni has its own ph water must be kept @... mostly over 7.0, as humans prefer a 7.0+ ph... this also may affect solubility of the calcium & ability of plant to uptake...
water report of specific water used should give type of cal & mag in water & other elements that may be present...
can03-, or cacl far more effective for application as water soluble fert. maybe...
maybe, not rely on hard water for cal until find form of cal in water, & other elements added to water to make & keep ph over 7.0... muni water is adjusted for humans, not pl@nts...
most simply use ca-n03- or ca-cl- for cal... soluble & immediately available to plants. no need to be converted to other forms for solubility...
gma?ShroomDr said:
cal-nit usually 15%n-19%ca... fnb is 4%n-4%ca.... most of the h!dr0-type ferts (pre-mixed liquids liquids) can only mix small amounts of cal to their mix, or precipitates may form.... dry ferts usually have cal separate. if not, in small amounts...fnb is 'slurry' type that keeps cal suspended in bottom of bottle, to be shaken vigorously (as bottle state) - to get cal into solution, maybe...
what is 'hose-attachmen-having'?
ca is macro-nutrient & needed in large amounts. if not, maybe dont get best final fruit. simpler when just added soluble cal seprately...
gma?
GMA = Guaranteed Minimum Analysis
what is 'hose-attachment-having (garden fertilizer)'?
I have added Advanced Nutrients Sensi Bloom (old and new) to the list, and tried to format it for easier reading!
All Ca in tap water, may not be available to the plant, but the fact that GH makes a Flora Micro HardWater, with 1/5 the Ca of Flora Micro, has to mean they are considering the tap water as a major source of Ca.
How else could someone explain the 80% drop in Ca, the plants must be getting it from somewhere...
dont want to feed pl@nts mg/hose attachment type anyway... usually has urea & lots of ammonium nitrogen - which h!dro type grown tomato dont prefer.
form(chem compound) of calcium most important variable.
limestone & gypsum are not immediately available, like cal chloride or cal nit, which gh may also consider some gardeners would use, instead of tap for cal.
often, other chemicals are also placed into muni tap, which may alter cal availability.
most dry fert dont contain any cal... but not due to tap having some, but because tomato, basil, pepper etc greenhouse gardeners just ca-n03-....
as for n & ca being equal ppm, they will likey that @ end of flowering... mg for general hobby gardneing, not for intensive fruit/flower cr0pping.
see maxi-b & fnb. they both have same % of n:ca, although even those may precipitate if not shaken/mixed very well...
if really want to provide cal & mag in carbonate form, maybe try gh's camg++, fromtheir gen org line... it is 5:1 cal:mag (0-0-0-5-1), w/ molasses (sugars tend to chelate & buffer solution & keep stable), & no nitrogen... works well though alternating form of cal applied also seem good rotation...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3534395&postcount=27
it can be explained by fact that most dry type ferts dont contain any cal - it is generallyt always fed separately to make sure it get thru w/out antagonisms or precipitation or reactions w/ other chems...
form(chem compound) of calcium most important variable.
limestone & gypsum are not immediately available, like cal chloride or cal nit, which gh may also consider some gardeners would use, instead of tap for cal.
often, other chemicals are also placed into muni tap, which may alter cal availability.
most dry fert dont contain any cal... but not due to tap having some, but because tomato, basil, pepper etc greenhouse gardeners just ca-n03-....
as for n & ca being equal ppm, they will likey that @ end of flowering... mg for general hobby gardneing, not for intensive fruit/flower cr0pping.
see maxi-b & fnb. they both have same % of n:ca, although even those may precipitate if not shaken/mixed very well...
if really want to provide cal & mag in carbonate form, maybe try gh's camg++, fromtheir gen org line... it is 5:1 cal:mag (0-0-0-5-1), w/ molasses (sugars tend to chelate & buffer solution & keep stable), & no nitrogen... works well
though alternating form of cal applied also seem good rotation...https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3534395&postcount=27
Not trying to get into an argument , but the explanation doesn't really fit the hypothesis.The GH Flora Series is liquid, i dont see why your 'dry type ferts' explanation would even be relevant (The very reason they these liquids are separated into 'two parts' is specifically because of your explanation [antagonisms, precipitation, reactions between molecules]).
Flora Micro is the only bottle that has Ca. There is none in Flora Grow or Flora Bloom, so there is no other source of Ca in the General Hydroponics Flora Series.
1.) The Flora Series has two versions of Micro, everything is identical except one has 80% less calcium.
2.) This version with the lower Ca is labeled the HardWater formula.
3.) Hard water insinuates Ca in the water (among other things).
I agree with all of this, its not in contention, however i feel you may be OVERSELLING the 'may alter cal availability'.
Again, I dont know much about water analysis, but if hard water is an excess of Ca...
And the formula suggested for hard water has 80% less Ca than the regular formula....
It seems pretty easy to me; 2 and 2 is generally 4.
Huh? You lost me here and the ellipsis are yours. It seems like you are saying there is no calcium in the formula CaNO3?
Or was it, as it reads 'ca-n zero three-'?
If so, I dont know what "greenhouse gardeners just ca-n03-" is suppose to mean.
Perhaps you mean greenhouse gardeners foliar feed with calcium nitrate (preventing Blossom End Rot), but i am making inferences based on my own knowledge of calnitrate and BER; the blurb posted wasn't too clear (and greenhouse [high] humidity conditions cause Ca issues [necessitating a fix]).
No one is suggesting using miracle grow for MJ (or those hose sprayers), just pointing out N:Ca ratios, in other fertilizers. Whether they had lower Ca levels could have been coincidence, totally unrelated, and/or just not listed in the guaranteed minimum analysis.
The whole thing was an anecdote, i thought could be related and should be noted.
Is Maxibloom 1:1 N:Ca too? FNB is made by General Hydroponics, so they stay with the general ratio of 1:1. That doesn't surprise me, in fact if they used a different ratio, i would say that would be noteworthy.
(Both of these assume equal parts A+B, ive never actually used AN)
The old AN Sensi Bloom A+B seemed to be 1:0.3 and the new Sensi Bloom A+B is 1:0.52.
These are the lowest N:Ca ratios ive seen (Im not sure what Ca is in the rest of their line up, lord knows they have enough products, but im not aware of a Ca specific product).
All water is not created equal, some sources are obviously better than others, and some people with (very) hard water will not be able to get away with using Flora Micro Hardwater (their water is just too poor quality), but i do not believe this 'unusable Ca' problem effects most people, and that their plants are sourcing Ca from the water. (If this were not the case Epsom Salt [Mg and S] would be suggested for RO users not Cal-Mag [RO users generally complain about low Mg levels].)
Im no expert, i am just piecing together what appear to be simple 'logistical facts' (once all the information is presented). I may be wrong, i implore my correction, but what i feel has been presented seems more cautionary tail, and scientific possibilities, not average growers probabilities. One could tell a grower they need a RO system and CalMag, but this is not always (or normally) necessary. Hell, there are some users who claim they like the pH buffering abilities of the tap water (i think these were all recirculating systems) and switched back.
Again not trying to argue, just asking for clarity, I dont disagree with the principles you have laid out, just possibly/probability of their application, and I will happily say i am incorrect if there is another reason for an 80% drop in Ca with a formula for hard water (other than the excess Ca in hard water).
C
Carl Carlson
I've never heard of anything causing calcium bicarbonate in tap water to be unavailable to plants. I have read that too much can lock out Iron.
G
Guest 18340
This is a great thread!
liquid ferts were once dry ferts. the precipitation can still occur, even if the elements/compounds are dissolved. it is the mixing of certain chems in high concentrations that causes new compounds to form, which may.may not be available to pl@nt.
the point is to have a separate source of calcium, ideally held in its own tank. if ShroomDr permits tap water to e the source of cal - go ahead.
again, maybe check w/ water report for form of cal in the tap...
not selling anything. if tap-cal works for gardeners, use it. only found that separately feeding cal work well...
cal is not the pnly element in tap. there can be lead, copper, nitrates, uranium, etc, etc... depending on what is used to raise ph over 7.0 for human use, can affect final cal availability. the cal in tap is not added by muni's it is variable.
can03- is calcium nitrate. check 'derived from' on most any fert bottle... what is commonly used for cal & nitrogen in h!dr0 type ferts.
cal required by plant may be +/- of n%, but it works better. whatever makes your plants happy.
yes, mabi-b is 5%n, 5%ca...
because most greenhouse gardeners supply cal separately...
Again not trying to argue, just asking for clarity, I dont disagree with the principles you have laid out, just possibly/probability of their application, and I will happily say i am incorrect if there is another reason for an 80% drop in Ca with a formula for hard water (other than the excess Ca in hard water).
greentrich
Member
Fuck ya it is. Wish I could contribute, just been lurkin' and learnin'. Chemistry is fun.
Shroom, Mistress...keep going plz. All this knowledge is exciting me. Might have to dance a jig
Thanks for the great contributions!
I would rather not, but apparently its necessary.
I think i have stated my hypothesis enough times; it hasnt been addressed, only skirted with things that are unrelated to the actual hypothesis. I dont disagree with the science presented, just its relevance to the hypothesis.
For those who need a recap
Your response seems to have softened to
ShroomDr is not 'permitting anything' GH is contouring the lineup to accommodate for the Ca in a 'hard water' supply. GH Flora Mirco Hardwater lists the EXACT same Guaranteed Minimum Analysis as GH Flora Micro except an 80% drop in listed Ca.
The question is why a hard water formula would have less Ca. Explaining why they separate Ca from other elements is irrelevant to the question.
I will continue to address your responses, although they did not address my hypothesis. A few dont make sense, and i would prefer as little nonsense as possible in this thread.
IF this applied to the point being made, it would insinuate that most greenhouse gardeners are using RO water. I do not believe this to be the case. Not any greenhouse around here.
I guess if your contention is there is no Ca in the water, this would be true, (although still not addressing the hypothesis). I contend that most greenhouse gardeners add additional Ca separately (and this is only because of poor transpiration in the greenhouse).
No its not. can 03- is nothing (i am aware of). A Zero instead of a O is a major error, one you continue to make.
Generally information presented about chemical compounds (the usability of Ca) is going to carry A LOT more weight from someone who cares about the difference between Oxygen and a Zero.
This 'discussion' is getting tiresome, and it is not why i started the thread. You seem to have backed yourself into a corner, and are looking for way out. I thought ive given you multiple outs, but you continue to dig, and grasp. The only useful thing brought up, is how Ca 'may react w/ other chems'. This is not a concern for the average grower, and not effecting most of the Ca present in the water.
Here is a great thread
He doesnt seem too concerned about unusable Ca or other compounds; perhaps thats a better place to discuss what 'ShroomDr permits tap water to (do).'BigToke said:
