PSA on Eagle 20 fungicide

ganjourno · Jan 16, 2016

Hello,
I have been growing personally on and off for about 5 years. Historically, I have used Eagle20 fungicide to cure PM on plants in VEG and to inoculate new mothers or clones from outside sources. Systemic fungicides have an advantage over contact treatments because they can completely rid the plant of PM, keeping the strain "clean" going forward.

The logic behind it being safe for use in veg is that such a small amount is present in the harvested plant that smoking or ingesting it would have no detrimental health effects.

HOWEVER, recently I learned that for Eagle 20 (myclobutanil), and other fungicides that end in the "il" or "yl" suffix, such as chlorothalonil (daconil brand name), the danger is not in the trace amounts but it what happens during combustion! These specific compounds have a nitrile group which is a nitrogen atom triple bonded to a carbon atom. Well when you combust this via smoking, that group breaks off, joins with a free hydrogen atom, and becomes hydrogen cyanide! Myclobutanil is labeled for use on some edible crops, so many growers think it's safe to use on cannabis during veg. But since cannabis is combusted, and grapes are not, myclobutanil can be far for dangerous when used with cannabis!

See: http://www.coloradogreenlab.com/blo...ntext-of-cannabis-cultivation-and-consumption

and: http://www.alternet.org/drugs/there-cyanide-your-marijuana

I know how widely used eagle is for PM, so if you use it, please switch to something else!

I am currently looking into Pageant by BASF to treat incoming genetics (pre-moms). Pageant contains a mix of Pyraclostrobin and boscalid, neither of which are very toxic and they do NOT have the cyanide combustion risk of Eagle20/myclobutanil.

Pyraclostrobin: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profile...-sulfur/pyraclostrobin/pyraclos_let_1204.html

Boscalid: http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+7499

Note: I do not advocate using any unlabeled pesticides or fungicides on your plants! But if you do decide to use such products, please remember this research and avoid Eagle20, and never apply in flower! The best way to avoid PM is to start from seed or get clones only from a trusted, clean source, keep your air moving and your humidity below 60%, and keep your shit clean.

Weird · Jan 16, 2016

cough

told you so

cough

Razzurrection · Jan 16, 2016

you're weird

Chuck E. Kush · Jan 16, 2016

A friend gave me a bottle of eagle20.
I've never had PM..Tossing the bottle tomorrow.
Thanks for the info :tiphat:

Weird · Jan 16, 2016

One of the things concerns I have that I was never able to share because of the ye ol' lowering of the intellectual bar in the eagle 20 threads is this:

They do not test the myriad of combinations of trace pesticides and fungicides for their co-mingled toxicities, nor do they test them in health compromised peoples, nor do they they test them on majority of soil microbiology, some of which are necessary to prevent pests and disease problems.

This is above and beyond the fact that none of these factors where tested in a model of combustion.

Let us not bring into the matter logic, which dictates that a company like Dow wants as much product penetration as possible and if there was any way they could offer that product other segments of the agricultural market they would, which they do, under different names using different companion chemicals.

Bottom line is some under educated and uncaring someone started using it and promoted its use until it became inappropriately prevalent, and people followed him hook like and sinker like conscienceless sheep, in a landscape where the economic potential is so great anyone can afford to do it right.

FeltchWyzard · Jan 17, 2016

You know what? You guys ain't bad! Personally, I dig on actinovate or ogbw. Bio, baby! Then again, I hear you can get false positives when testing for mold with bennies.

ganjourno · Jan 18, 2016

I think another issue is that for so long, there has been no concerted scientific effort behind analysis of pesticide/fungicide compounds for use on cannabis because of the federal illegality thereof. So growers are forces to gamble; PM is a reality of the ecosystem, and a perfectly dialed room can still be compromised by intaking contaminated genetics; and unfortunate reality that growers face as hype and branding drives the market.

So a grower will need to make a choice:
1. Grow the infected strain and harvest/distribute with obvious PM contamination. There are known health effects to consuming cannabis contaminated with PM.
2. Use an organic or benign topical control method which will reduce the expression of PM, but does not eradicate it from the plant. This is better than just letting PM happen, but imposes a long term losing strategy that is not tenable for many producers.
3. Use a unlabeled systemic based on the advice from the growing community to completely rid the plant of PM. This option is where Eagle20 comes into play.

So the resulting issue is that many growers think the Eagle20 route is the lesser of all evils, because it allows them to completely rid their garden of pathogens. Because the trace amount is very low, provided it is applied in veg, and because available data shows that it is relatively non-toxic, and also labeled for use an many edible crops, that its use is preferable to producing medicine potentially contaminated with mold. Based on available data, many see using Eagle as a lesser harm option.

But of course, there is no data on combustion products, because such research up until very recently, would have been illegal to conduct. There needs to be a national referendum on cannabis research, so that pesticide companies can provide labeling advice for cannabis the same as they do for other edible crops. The economic footprint of the cannabis industry definitely warrants the future inclusion on pesticide and fungicide labeling. I feel that the majority of growers act responsibly, but unfortunately there is must conjecture and missing data in this area. I hope that the recent legalization efforts of several states will help in jump starting better research that will inform growers of best practices regarding the safe and effective use of pesticides and fungicides.

Mikell · Jan 18, 2016

Concerned about inhaling hydrogen cyanide?

Better stop smoking cannabis.

Shit, where'd my herd go? The shepherd will know. He does my thinking for me.

Never a concern raised over spraying repackaged Chinese microbial inoculants. I suppose they are above reproach on product quality.

This is all old hat. What actually is rarely mentioned is the fate of degraded chemicals and their own half lives, toxicity, etc.

But that's usually too in depth for a community that typically spurns science and logic in favour of subjective opinion.

FeltchWyzard · Jan 19, 2016

What's your anti-PM method?

Weird · Jan 19, 2016

Using fungicides like myclobutanil is that even if they were completely safe, they don't encourage proper horticultural skills that prevent and eliminate PM so chemicals aren't necessary.

Why would this still matter? because organisms rapidly adapt to thrive in light of these substances.

There are proven horticultural practices that use methods that organisms do not adapt to so their efficiency remains constant.

Neem oil, horticultural (stylet) oil and/or need meal are great places to start

Mikell · Jan 19, 2016

FeltchWyzard said:
What's your anti-PM method?

Jack shite. I like fans and environment control too much to have PM. At least up until now. The neighbours were breeding it in their flower gardens no less.

Can't even recall the last time I sprayed anything, let alone broad spectrum fungicidal oils like neem, stylet, etc.

I feel like I have some comeuppance down the road. Maybe those root aphids I found on the ornamental cedars will move inside.

I do like arguing though. Not so much with Weird, as his go to response is "ura noob". I am, but I think that's more a general comment here. Does post some damn interesting information though.

Million ways to crack an egg, ego makes one think theirs is the only way.

Some posters here are performing residue testing. While I doubt their methods would hold up to rigourous scrutiny, it will provide more insight than the usual conjecture that drives threads like this.

Weird · Jan 19, 2016

Mikell said:
Jack shite. I like fans and environment control too much to have PM. At least up until now. The neighbours were breeding it in their flower gardens no less.

Can't even recall the last time I sprayed anything, let alone broad spectrum fungicidal oils like neem, stylet, etc.

I feel like I have some comeuppance down the road. Maybe those root aphids I found on the ornamental cedars will move inside.

I do like arguing though. Not so much with Weird, as his go to response is "ura noob". Does post some damn interesting information though.

Some posters here are performing residue testing. While I doubt their methods would hold up to rigourous scrutiny, it will provide more insight than the usual conjecture that drives threads like this.

So you evolved from noob to someone who argues against the healthy techniques in support of science measuring ones known to be dangerous.

When your pot heals you of your lack of social conscious (performing actions that have no social benefit like posting in support of arguing for eagle20 STILL) then I will no longer consider you a noob.

and FWIW if you need to control your environment to keep your plants PM free your not seasoned, that is for sure.

mendo420 · Jan 19, 2016

Post that in the Eagle-20 thread!
I double dog dare you.

frostqueen · Jan 19, 2016

I think some people are simply here to try to make themselves out to be above others. Not really how I choose to roll. People need to be educated, not belittled.

There are excellent points made elsewhere about how myclobutanyl turns into hydrogen cyanide upon immolation. IOW, science indicates that Eagle20 might very well be a total non-option at any level. Research is ongoing about that. Don't use it until that is fully quantified. I am also going to do some testing to find out what sort of residuals we can actually expect after 10 weeks or so, so we at least know what we are facing.

The argument about clean and preventative strategies (having your environment and garden dialed) is such a no-brainer I'm at a loss why that's being offered as a 'solution'. One would hope people dealt with that basic shit in the first months of being a grower.

Mikell · Jan 20, 2016

Weird said:
So you evolved from noob to someone who argues against the healthy techniques in support of science measuring ones known to be dangerous.

When your pot heals you of your lack of social conscious (performing actions that have no social benefit like posting in support of arguing for eagle20 STILL) then I will no longer consider you a noob.

and FWIW if you need to control your environment to keep your plants PM free your not seasoned, that is for sure.

Arguing against? You'll have to reference that, not entirely sure what you're talking about unless you're refering to the bold lettering in the quote.

In which case, your interpretation is wrong. I've run out of neem. I would have bought more but this bottle of stylet oil will last years. I haven't cracked it since I brought the peppers inside 5 monthes ago.

What I find is that if you don't tow the party line, you're "against us". There was an infamous statesman who used similar logic in the last decade.

Maybe if I spray predator mites with neem the cool kids will let me in their club again.

When I started, I believed all conventional methods of control were wrong and dangerous. But after reading objectively (such as I can), all I find are bogeymen created by fanatics that refuse to accept anything other than their own narrow opinions.

There are many that have no place in gardening or growing cannabis. Imidicloprid for example.

And many others that can be used safely.

I play devils advocate to get people to think about their choices. I also try to avoid judging them based on what they choose to do (contrary to the first rule of organic growing).

We should be discussing everything. People don't post because they know the same old tired reactions. This breeds ignorance of the products they're using.

Open discussion leads to wider information. As a result of an unbiased (some what) debate in the myclobutanil thread, two posters are willing to pay out of pocket to see the results of applying at different stages.

This never would have happened with the culture you and others have forced upon us.

And now in the future, others can look at what they've done and make more informed choices.

I would rather:

"If I spray now, this level of residual will remain at harvest. Maybe I should find a better option."

Than

"I'm going to spray now and hope it's good."

From a total lack of information, the result of a lack of discussion.

The environment you and others in the crowd have created is incredibly hostile to anything the herd does not accept as organic enough.

And yet some how this attitude is perceived as innovative.

Funny that.

If hydrogen cyanide (a chemical produced by combusting cannabis) is the best argument against myclobutanil, head back to the drawing board.

If I wanted your approval I'm sure I'd be acting much differently.

I'll keep on controlling RH and trying to grow healthy plants for now. Seems to work great.

frostqueen · Jan 20, 2016

Mikell said:
Arguing against? You'll have to reference that, not entirely sure what you're talking about unless you're refering to the bold lettering in the quote.

In which case, your interpretation is wrong. I've run out of neem. I would have bought more but this bottle of stylet oil will last years. I haven't cracked it since I brought the peppers inside 5 monthes ago.

What I find is that if you don't tow the party line, you're "against us". There was an infamous statesman who used similar logic in the last decade.

Maybe if I spray predator mites with neem the cool kids will let me in their club again.

When I started, I believed all conventional methods of control were wrong and dangerous. But after reading objectively (such as I can), all I find are bogeymen created by fanatics that refuse to accept anything other than their own narrow opinions.

There are many that have no place in gardening or growing cannabis. Imidicloprid for example.

And many others that can be used safely.

I play devils advocate to get people to think about their choices. I also try to avoid judging them based on what they choose to do (contrary to the first rule of organic growing).

We should be discussing everything. People don't post because they know the same old tired reactions. This breeds ignorance of the products they're using.

Open discussion leads to wider information. As a result of an unbiased (some what) debate in the myclobutanil thread, two posters are willing to pay out of pocket to see the results of applying at different stages.

This never would have happened with the culture you and others have forced upon us.

And now in the future, others can look at what they've done and make more informed choices.

I would rather:

"If I spray now, this level of residual will remain at harvest. Maybe I should find a better option."

Than

"I'm going to spray now and hope it's good."

From a total lack of information, the result of a lack of discussion.

The environment you and others in the crowd have created is incredibly hostile to anything the herd does not accept as organic enough.

And yet some how this attitude is perceived as innovative.

Funny that.

If hydrogen cyanide (a chemical produced by combusting cannabis) is the best argument against myclobutanil, head back to the drawing board.

If I wanted your approval I'm sure I'd be acting much differently.

I'll keep on controlling RH and trying to grow healthy plants for now. Seems to work great.

Well, you have my approval. :tip hat: I don't think anyone can really successfully argue that sufficient data isn't the best way to make decisions about this stuff. Separating real quantified risks from 'initial emotional responses to feared but as-yet undocumented risks' is obviously key here.

The bit about hydrogen cyanide already being created by the smoking process itself is pretty important. If you create 100 times more hydrogen cyanide smoking perfectly clean cannabis than by burning an additional .2ppm of myclobutanyl, that argument ends up being pretty damned weak. This is just a hypothetical, since we don't have actual numbers at this point.

I've honestly used Eagle20 so rarely that this isn't a huge deal to me, but as a consultant, after seeing some of the super-powdery we've been experiencing here in the PNW (happening to seasoned professional gardeners who have had their environments and plants dialed in for many years now), I start to wonder if this product needs to be abandoned entirely when faced with those new pressures.

I brought in some of this 'super-powdery' on a club cut I didn't quarantine properly, and it spread like wildfire in my veg area. I treated with Ea20 and it still took a couple more treatments to kill totally it off. And this was on healthy plants in 45% humidity.

Speaking of alternatives. Anybody had any experience with Flint? This name came up in a discussion with a warehouse grower friend; an alternative to Eagle20 with (apparently) less toxicity. It is hella expensive. Haven't researched it yet.

Some old dude · Dec 2, 2017

Eagle 20

Eagle 20

I have used eagle 20 once with 1 ml per gallon. Normally would never use it but I needed to .Used it on mother plants one month before clones put into flower room. Anyways ,Hello everyone its been a while since I been back here. And now the "HUGE SURPRISE" I was surprised no one just googled "Tobacco and hydrogen Cyanide" Do it...SURPRISE,..My wife and I have been smoking hydrogen Cyanide for 45 years as it tuns out. We quit cigs about 9 months ago though ,..was time. But this is an example of what people think they know, >all the best peeps.

Mikell · Dec 2, 2017

Hyup. Inhaling smoke isn't very good for you.

But it does have drugs in it.

Weird · Oct 8, 2019

Razzurrection said:
you're weird

ahh yeah

PSA on Eagle 20 fungicide

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