Is the F22 an Embarassment ?

St. Phatty · Oct 14, 2018

I read about the hurricane hitting Tyndall AFB.

One article said 49% of the F22's were not flight worthy.

Another article said 4 were stuck behind after they flew the flight-worthy F22's out of the way.

So they were stuck at the base, which was Ground Zero when the hurricane came through.

Those pictures of the F22 pieces in the warehouse wreckage ... Jeez.

Could it be a psy-op to make the world think that the F22 is not flight-worthy ?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/us/air-force-hurricane-michael-damage.html

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...maged-after-tyndall-hangars-hit-by-hurricane/

American citizens might be justified to be slightly upset.

$339 million per plane. I remember 20 years ago - it was only supposed to be $100 million.

I was one of the design engineers on the Avionics (radio-computer- EW interface.)

I got the point in 1998. I knew both the lead digital design guy, and the lead software quality guy responsible for testing the very expensive radio.

The lead quality guy was not happy with the test-ability of the design. Probably should not say more than that.

They fired the lead quality guy.

When they fire technical leads for trying to tell the truth, but not providing the desired answers ... it's a problem.

Once I was in between the lead digital guy and the lead quality guy in a yoga class at the gym we all belonged to, surrounded by beautiful women in yoga tights.

Boy that was a unique social situation.

OakyJoe · Oct 14, 2018

Putembk · Oct 14, 2018

Kind of reminds me of the VA Hospital in Denver. Estimated budget 700,000,000 final budget 1.7 billion and counting. I have heard it is obsolete before being finished. Who is in charge of this stuff....The guy in Denver Neil Haglestrom was replaced but got full benefits and living comfortably in retirement.

Good old gov't .... if we go over budget....just raise taxes.....

packerfan79 · Oct 14, 2018

Putembk said:
Kind of reminds me of the VA Hospital in Denver. Estimated budget 700,000,0000 final budget 1.7 billion and counting. I have heard it is obsolete before being finished. Who is in charge of this stuff....The guy in Denver Neil Haglestrom was replaced but got full benefits and living comfortably in retirement.

Good old gov't .... if we go over budget....just raise taxes.....

Only 1 billion over initial estimates, that's actually pretty good for the government. Now, why wouldn't you want the same institution to control every aspect of your health care.

troutman · Oct 14, 2018

I've always wanted to fly a Mig-29 and an F-15E Strike Eagle.

Putembk · Oct 14, 2018

I threw an extra 0 in there.....Seven hundred million......

@ packer....maybe that is why we have some of the most expensive and poorest health care in the civilized world. Don't know if those of us living in the Denver metroplex have noticed all the medical buildings going up around us. Never any cars in the parking lots. I have been wondering how they stay in business.....

Amazing the Denver post ran and article on the subject last week. The just of the matter was.....They don't care...just raise their prices to stay solvent. So....the country has the most expensive and poorest health care in the world and apparently Denver leads the way on escalating prices.....as a non profit they can do that. Thinking that means if you go in for something simple like a cold you bill will be five figures...

Don't get sick.....

Gry · Oct 14, 2018

troutman said:
I've always wanted to fly a Mig-29 and an F-15E Strike Eagle.

Could be content with the two seat trainer config with a dab rig modification.

troutman · Oct 14, 2018

Gry said:
Could be content with the two seat trainer config with a dab rig modification.

No dabbing at 30,000 ft you could get brain damage. :comfort:

St. Phatty · Oct 14, 2018

Putembk said:
So....the country has the most expensive and poorest health care in the world and apparently Denver leads the way on escalating prices.....as a non profit they can do that. Thinking that means if you go in for something simple like a cold you bill will be five figures...

Don't get sick.....

I would bet money that at least a 1/3 of the mass shootings the US has had, have stemmed directly from lack of access to old-fashioned normal medical care.

And that at least another 1/3 are somehow related to health care, e.g. the effects of SSRI anti-depressants, or a patient undergoing a forced withdrawal from SNRI anti-depressants.

Health privacy laws only apply when the patient is living.

I'm pretty sure they're keeping the medical records of the mass shooters secret, because there are embarassing secrets contained therein.

Gry · Oct 14, 2018

troutman said:
No dabbing at 30,000 ft you could get brain damage.

Would never see 3000 ft. Time spent would involve take off's and touch downs , with a reload of the rig each time.

Sure would have enjoyed filling ashtrays on the Concorde though.

gaiusmarius · Oct 14, 2018

holy smoke, did you guys follow the link? it's incredible. a whole air force base was just destroyed by storm! weather weapons anyone?

how can a military installation not be ready to cope with any storm? how can Russians build bases in the arctic that stand up to anything nature can throw at them? when the US can't even protect her best planes from a storm with 3 days warning time?

was this corrupt contractors doing shoddy work, or are they skimping on the hangars and buildings? seems incredible to me. maybe it was those same halliburton contractors who built this base as the ones that installed 100 000 dollar lavatories and electric shock showers for the occupying forces in Iraq, lol.

personally, i would have those hangars under mounds of earth like the Syrians, a military base needing to be evacuated for a bit of rain and wind is fucking hilarious. you make the best planes in the world, but can't make a weather proof building to store it in? if even one f22 got destroyed by this storm thats so pathetic, they had days of time to evacuate those machines.

so we have the f35 grounded because of faulty fuel lines and we have the f22 at 49% flight readiness and still, they let some of them get fucked by a storm? roflmao. i bet the Chinese and Russians are laughing. unless its a cy op and they will be attacking Syria any second with all the ready f35's and f22's, but i don't think so, no competent military will believe such news to the point of letting their guard down, hehe.

St. Phatty · Oct 14, 2018

gaiusmarius said:
holy smoke, did you guys follow the link? it's incredible. a whole air force base was just destroyed by storm! weather weapons anyone?

how can a military installation not be ready to cope with any storm? how can Russians build bases in the arctic that stand up to anything nature can throw at them? when the US can't even protect her best planes from a storm with 3 days warning time?

I would use that wind to generate electricity.

Which obviously then has to be stored.

Pumped water is a common form of energy storage.

Where would they get the water ?

Oh yeah, guess there's enough of that.

First article I read said they lost about 1/2 of the F22's at the base.

Now the AF is putting spin on the news articles.

Not being able to fly a $300+ Million airplane to move it out of the way of a hurricane ?

That's how empires collapse. I bet Putin got a laugh and a face palm out of that news.

gaiusmarius · Oct 15, 2018

17 of the F22 were not able to be evacuated, 17! like i said why didnt that base have hurricane proof hangars for those 300 million dollar machines? are they retarded? why would you not spend enough to have a 100% full proof hangar? it's an air force base for Christ sake, what if it's attacked? i really can't believe what im reading here, how can a military bases be so flimsy that a hurricane will wipe it out? we are talking a military installation, it will get attacked with bombs in case of real war, so why the hell isnt it prepared. all you do is pile a few tones of earth over the top, have blast proof doors, like you would expect to protect the best plane in the airforce.at least some hangars like that should be available in case of war or directed weather weapons, or general increase of bad weather phenomenon connected to climate change. i suppose the US air force thinks no enemy planes will ever get close enough and if they do there are air defense systems, but still, the first rule seems to me would be make you base hard, protect your assets with infrastructure. i really wonder if the work was up to code, or if some contractors got filthy rich and made a flimsy base that can be destroyed by hurricane, while cashing in for a real weather proof base, lol. remember the 100k Iraqi toilet bowls that haliburton invoiced the government of the US for? seems the same shady shit happened with the building of this base.

Hurricane Michael Mangled at Least 17 F-22 Raptors That Failed to Flee Their Base

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hurricane-michael-mangled-least-17-183700816.html

From Popular Mechanics

The U.S. Air Force is assessing what damage more than a dozen F-22 Raptor fighters suffered when Tyndall Air Force Base sustained a direct hit from Hurricane Michael. Up to $2 billion in fighter jets were trapped on the ground because of maintenance issues and forced to ride out the Category 4 hurricane. Photographs show the hangars where F-22s were parked suffered severe damage.

First, the good news: Although Tyndall Air Force Base took a hard hit from the hurricane, all 3,600 military personnel and their families living on the base were successfully evacuated beforehand. The 93 Air Force personnel who stayed behind to keep an eye on the base are all safe and accounted for.

On the other hand: Up to 17 of Tyndall’s F-22s might have sustained damage or been destroyed during the storm. The aircraft, each of which cost $150 million, were unable to escape with the rest of the base’s F-22 fleet to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. The jets left behind were parked inside hangars and officials hoped for the best.

U.S.
Hurricane Michael Mangled at Least 17 F-22 Raptors That Failed to Flee Their Base
Popular Mechanics Kyle Mizokami,Popular Mechanics 3 hours ago
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From Popular Mechanics

The U.S. Air Force is assessing what damage more than a dozen F-22 Raptor fighters suffered when Tyndall Air Force Base sustained a direct hit from Hurricane Michael. Up to $2 billion in fighter jets were trapped on the ground because of maintenance issues and forced to ride out the Category 4 hurricane. Photographs show the hangars where F-22s were parked suffered severe damage.

First, the good news: Although Tyndall Air Force Base took a hard hit from the hurricane, all 3,600 military personnel and their families living on the base were successfully evacuated beforehand. The 93 Air Force personnel who stayed behind to keep an eye on the base are all safe and accounted for.

On the other hand: Up to 17 of Tyndall’s F-22s might have sustained damage or been destroyed during the storm. The aircraft, each of which cost $150 million, were unable to escape with the rest of the base’s F-22 fleet to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. The jets left behind were parked inside hangars and officials hoped for the best.

Photo credit: U.S. Air Force photo by Airman 1st Class Delaney Gonzales
Post-hurricane photos showed extensive damage to the hangars, with at least one F-22 Raptor visible inside. Another photo showed a QF-16 target drone (a F-16 modified to act as an unmanned practice target) with the aircraft nose cone broken off.

The U.S. Air Force operates 186 F-22 Raptor fighters, of which only 123 are “combat coded”-that is, they have the full suite of hardware and software to make them fully operational combat-ready fighters. The rest of the F-22 fleet lacks the full range of combat capability and is largely relegated to training duties.

Tyndall is home to the 325th Fighter Wing which operates 55 F-22s split between the 43rd and 95th Fighter Squadrons. As The Diplomat explains, “The 95th Fighter Squadron’s 24 F-22s are combat-coded and operational. The 43rd Fighter Squadron’s 31 F-22s comprise the primary training unit for the Raptor.”

The Air Force has yet to reveal exactly how many F-22s were left behind, how many of those were damaged, and the extent of the damage. We also don’t know how many of the damaged jets, if any, were combat-coded models.

Initial estimates of the damage were troubling, but Foreign Policy’s Lara Seligman later tweeted that “all aircraft are intact and initial indications are ‘promising’.” It’s worth noting that the F-22 Raptor is built tough, designed to fly twice as fast as the speed of sound and in all weather conditions. That said, falling or wind-whipped debris from the hangar structure is another matter entirely. Hurricane-force winds might also pick up a fighter jet, which is built to be lifted into the air, after all, and plunk it down hard.

Why were the jets unable to fly clear of the hurricane’s path? They were simply down for maintenance and could not be readied in time. The Air Force had just a few days’ warning, making disassembling them and flying or trucking the parts to safety impractical.

In 2017, the Air Force’s F-22 fleet had the lowest readiness rate of all Air Force combat aircraft, with just 49 percent of aircraft flyable. Even if the Raptors at Tyndall had a 90 percent readiness rate, a very good number in peacetime, that means five aircraft from a fleet of 55 would have been left behind on the ground.

If the number of planes left behind is correct at 17, then that means the service was able to get more than two-thirds of the base’s jets into the air, a challenge especially when one considers the maintainers that struggled to get them flyable had to be evacuated themselves. While we don’t know the extent of the damage to the jets, it’s pretty safe to say that if the readiness rate for the F-22 was higher we’d be worrying about the fate of fewer planes.

According to Combat Aircraft the base was decimated. “The flight line is devastated. Every building has severe damage. Many buildings are a complete loss.” But why was an Air Force base in the heart of America’s hurricane country so badly prepared for a big storm, especially protecting billions of dollars’ worth of fighter jets? Could the Air Force not foresee the possibility of having to evacuate the base and being forced to protect grounded jets from a hurricane?

The Air Force continues to survey damage at Tyndall, with Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson, Air Force Chief of Staff David Goldfein, and Chief Master Sgt. of the Air Force Kaleth Wright visiting the base on Sunday. Air Force RED HORSE engineering units, trained to re-open damaged air bases in wartime, are on the ground cleaning up hurricane debris while Air Force special operations forces reopened the airfield so supplies could be flown in.

St. Phatty · Oct 16, 2018

gaiusmarius said:
17 of the F22 were not able to be evacuated, 17! like i said why didnt that base have hurricane proof hangars for those 300 million dollar machines? are they retarded? why would you not spend enough to have a 100% full proof hangar? it's an air force base for Christ sake, what if it's attacked? i really can't believe what im reading here, how can a military bases be so flimsy that a hurricane will wipe it out?

That's exactly how I feel.

Thank you, very much, for digging up that article. So $5 Billion in the BEST American airplanes could not be moved - because they couldn't fly ?!?!?!?!?!

Orville and Wilbur Wright, it doesn't matter if they're dead. That rumbling sound is the force of Face Palm Ness wrenching their long dead bones out of the ground, so they can do one final bony Face Palm.

I don't think their Kitty Hawk or whatever it was called, cost more than $100.

I can share a short story from one of the prime F22 contractors.

In 2002, I was invited to a meeting in one of the Copper Wallpaper rooms, in the F22 building. The copper wallpaper is to contain radiated emissions that might occur during a meeting. They are literally concerned about someone sitting outside in a car with an HP antenna, attached to some specialized RF sniffing equipment, to listen in on technical meetings.

Bear in mind, this is one of the rooms where the $330 million plane-that-couldn't-fly was designed.

I was told that I was part of a Tiger Team. Oooooh !!!

They invited a senior materials guy, some manufacturing engineers, my boss, myself as a more mechanical design type, etc. to work on a serious problem.

The F22 needs liquid cooling for the electronics. But, when the plane is parked somewhere humid, that means that humid air is condensing on the cold-plates inside the electronics.

So they go to this big effort to supposedly inspire our best problem solving skills.

I took them at their word, and thought about it while I was at the gym, as always. I knew that it was not a new problem, so I looked at how this problem was addressed in other industries.

BINGO !!! Problem solved. Dielelectric Grease from the auto industry, it is used to keep moisture out of connectors.

I walked into a meeting the next morning and put a tube of $7.29 Pep Boys dielectric grease on the table.

It was, completely, Problem Solved. The connectors that had the condensation were low-frequency connectors.

You can't fill an RF connector with dielectric grease and expect it to work - but I was asked to solve a problem for power and low-frequency connectors.

And I did solve it.

And my solution was immediately vetoed.

And I was told, I would be terminated or "something bad" if I went so far as to simple test my solution in the lab. (That's the Stick part.)

The carrot part - I had experience using expensive gasketed connectors, made by a company named Airborne.
and they knew it.

They told me to write a proposal for a $5 Million re-design (20 man-years.) Had I written the proposal, I would have been, first in line for the Program Manager position.

Of course, it would have helped if I paid attention to personal grooming, trimmed my nose-hairs, wore shoes instead of sandals to work, etc. :woohoo:

At that point I should have been used to the "we're here to maximize revenues" approach to engineering that my employer had.

The problem with the re-design management wanted is not so much that it added money. The problem was, it added complexity to the physical design.

Now imagine the same approach is used - everywhere in the plane. Over and over, 1000's of times. ALWAYS picking the solutions that allowed them to maximize billings.

That's why it's a $330 million airplane.

That gross unnecessary technical complexity is why those 17 planes aren't flying.

I would bet the pinky finger on my left hand that some of those planes were grounded because the avionics didn't work.

Also, there is nothing illegal about a prime contractor behaving as they did - literally nixing a reliable & basically free solution, ordering a technical lead to pursue a far more complex solution.

troutman · Oct 16, 2018

You would think valuable planes like that would be kept in underground bunkers when not flying.

Elmer Bud · Oct 16, 2018

St. Phatty said:
I read about the hurricane hitting Tyndall AFB.

One article said 49% of the F22's were not flight worthy.

Another article said 4 were stuck behind after they flew the flight-worthy F22's out of the way.

So they were stuck at the base, which was Ground Zero when the hurricane came through.

Those pictures of the F22 pieces in the warehouse wreckage ... Jeez.

Could it be a psy-op to make the world think that the F22 is not flight-worthy ?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/us/air-force-hurricane-michael-damage.html

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...maged-after-tyndall-hangars-hit-by-hurricane/

American citizens might be justified to be slightly upset.

$339 million per plane. I remember 20 years ago - it was only supposed to be $100 million.

I was one of the design engineers on the Avionics (radio-computer- EW interface.)

I got the point in 1998. I knew both the lead digital design guy, and the lead software quality guy responsible for testing the very expensive radio.

The lead quality guy was not happy with the test-ability of the design. Probably should not say more than that.

They fired the lead quality guy.

When they fire technical leads for trying to tell the truth, but not providing the desired answers ... it's a problem.

Once I was in between the lead digital guy and the lead quality guy in a yoga class at the gym we all belonged to, surrounded by beautiful women in yoga tights.

Boy that was a unique social situation.

G `day St Phat

I saw an interview with a Russian fighter pilot who had been on an exchange program .
He said the US fighters were very good . But need lots of maintenance and pre flight takes a long time .
He said Russian tech is lower maintenance and ready to go at a moments notice .
Big advantages .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

Lester Beans · Oct 16, 2018

Right but ready to go and capable of beating an American fighting airplane is two different stories. Of course they need more maintenance and long preflight inspection. They are bristling with technology, where the Russians are still using mechanical gauges and such.

Also that storm was brutal, picked up a lot of power when it entered the warm waters of the gulf.

It is kind of hard to wrap my mind around not having a hurricane proof facility though. The south gets many hurricanes a year.

packerfan79 · Oct 16, 2018

Lester Beans said:
Right but ready to go and capable of beating an American fighting airplane is two different stories. Of course they need more maintenance and long preflight inspection. They are bristling with technology, where the Russians are still using mechanical gauges and such.

Also that storm was brutal, picked up a lot of power when it entered the warm waters of the gulf.

It is kind of hard to wrap my mind around not having a hurricane proof facility though. The south gets many hurricanes a year.

Is their such a thing as a hurricane proof building?

From what I hear from a person who is their, it wasn't your average hurricane. Whole towns were completely destroyed.

It sucks we lost so many planes, but at least the military members and families were safely evacuated.

Elmer Bud · Oct 16, 2018

Lester Beans said:
Right but ready to go and capable of beating an American fighting airplane is two different stories. Of course they need more maintenance and long preflight inspection. They are bristling with technology, where the Russians are still using mechanical gauges and such.

Also that storm was brutal, picked up a lot of power when it entered the warm waters of the gulf.

It is kind of hard to wrap my mind around not having a hurricane proof facility though. The south gets many hurricanes a year.

G `day LB

They gotta be up in the air to have that advantage I would expect ?

If they need hours to prepare to fly and then extensive maintenance before they can fly again . They might not get the chance to exploit their advantages . No ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

St. Phatty · Oct 16, 2018

Lester Beans said:
They are bristling with technology, where the Russians are still using mechanical gauges and such.

The implication is that grossly mis-managed new technology somehow outperforms old technology with a much higher reliability record.

Obviously, it does not.

The F22 has become like a puss-filled wound that has turned gangrenous in places, covered up with a 1001 band-aids.

That it cost $339 million is not impressive, or maybe we should say, it impresses on the Down-side - impressively bad. Although that did help pay for my own salary for a while. :tiphat:

Stealth technology is not super-complicated. Mix iron powder in an epoxy resin, and you have exactly what microwave instrumentation companies use to absorb RF energy for calibration (sort of like, table-top Stealth.) Make it lightweight, and add some heat-resistance, and you have a version that you can sell for a higher price tag.

Virtually the entire town of San Diego is dependent on that Illusion. SAIC, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman - they all do what we employees call, Powerpoint Engineering.

If you can stand up and make a coherent presentation to one of the top US gov Air Force or Navy or Army purchasing managers, you get to participate in the money stream coming from the US gov.

An instinct for Excellence, or for delivering equipment that works, is strangely absent. The contrast with the private sector is marked.

It is so dis-orienting that I often found it necessary to dis-embark from my desk for a Virtual 4:20 in the manufacturing cafeteria with my similarly dis-illusioned (F22) co-workers.

One of the manufacturing guys was quite gifted at singing snippets of Rasta songs, so he would open each meeting with a Rasta song.

We all carried folders, and if a higher manager walked by, could always explain the meetings as, important conferrals with our manufacturing co-workers.

That insane-ness of military organizations concept is not new. I think it was part of the point of the old movie Catch22.

Is the F22 an Embarassment ?

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