Pure ZHO extraction solvent

Kcar · Feb 21, 2014

The weird thing is that they call it Dichloromethane ((Methylene Chloride)CH2CL2)

But if you scroll down to Section 9: Physical and Chemical Properties

It lists it as C2H6O better known as Dimethyl Ether.
And the properties list match Dimethyl Ether.

I think they are still trying to pull one over on us.

SkyHighLer · Feb 21, 2014

You can get the active ingredient, dichloromethane/methylene chloride in various degrees of purity through ebay, $70/gallon for >99.7% paint stripper to $$$ for 100% pure.

BredForMeds · Feb 22, 2014

has anyone used dichloromethane reagent grade to do an extraction??? can u make a shatter or wax type product.. or is it more of a sap?

SkyHighLer · Feb 23, 2014

"Methylene chloride is a known animal carcinogen. It’s toxic if inhaled and can cause severe burns to skin and eyes. Use paint stripper only in a well-ventilated area. Always wear goggles and chemical-resistant PVA or Viton safety gloves. Methylene chloride readily dissolves or penetrates all household gloves and most laboratory gloves.

People with heart disease should not use paint strippers containing methylene chloride. When inhaled, methylene chloride vapor metabolizes to carbon monoxide, which can cause heart attacks in susceptible individuals."

http://www.ehow.com/how_12192251_remove-paint-using-methylene-chloride.html

The only advantage you're probably going to find extracting with dichloromethane is it's less flammable than butane. Used under highly controlled conditions that ensure safety and proper purging it could be used, but I wouldn't and won't. This should be a warning to the authorities to not add odorant/mercaptan to canned butane in the hope of stopping the butane explosions, the results of using alternative solvents could be a much worse mess with long term health consequences.

Kcar · Feb 23, 2014

Dichloromethane has a boiling point of 103.3F so I doubt that
is what is in MZ12X.

Dimethyl Ether boils at -11F

Everything in that MSDS sheet matches Dimethyl Ether and not Dicholomethane.
Right down to the LC50 on rats.

AND Dichloromethane isn't really flammable.

unregistered190 · Feb 23, 2014

Interesting thread,so much info in here it makes my head spin :ying:

SkyHighLer · Feb 24, 2014

Kcar said:
The weird thing is that they call it Dichloromethane ((Methylene Chloride)CH2CL2)

But if you scroll down to Section 9: Physical and Chemical Properties

It lists it as C2H6O better known as Dimethyl Ether.
And the properties list match Dimethyl Ether.

I think they are still trying to pull one over on us.

"I think they are still trying to pull one over on us."

Agreed...dimethyl ether fits.

"Laboratory reagent and solvent,
DME is a low-temperature solvent and extraction agent, applicable to specialised laboratory procedures. Its usefulness is limited by its low boiling point (−23 °C), but the same property facilitates its removal from reaction mixtures."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_ether

Doctor Z, put up a correct and complete MSDS and you might have a chance...

Gray Wolf · Feb 25, 2014

2-24-14
Hello Graywolf,
If you read our MDSD carefully it says dichloromethane formula....not Methylene Chloride.
By US MSDS & CAS guideline when it is trade secret formula we don't have to disclose exact
ingredient once it passes EPA review.
We appreciate the information but you can be rest assure that MZ12X is not Methylene Chloride.
Thanks.
ZHO

$C:\Users\JDELLI~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif$

2-24-14

And MZ12X is not carcinogen gas. Period.
You should have noticed the health hazard guideline on our MSDS as well.
It is proven to be non-carcinogen and no known threat to human health.
ZHO

2-25-14

Ummmmm, Dichloromethane CH2Cl2 is Methylene Chloride.

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9926060
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichloromethane

If you are talking about a different chemical, perhaps you should add the CAS number to alieviate any confusion. Right now, you only show the CAS# for the CO2 propellent and call out Dichloromethane, aka Methylene Chloride.

You are right that you don't have to give the exact proprietary formula, which I most certainly have not asked you to do, but you do have to tell what is in it and so far you have listed Dichloromethane (Methylene Chloride) and CO2.

You are certainly free to play a cat and mouse game with the MSDS sheets, but it only adds to the public skecticism and doubt about you and your product.

GW

paladin420 · Feb 25, 2014

^^^^^ more than just helpful^^^^^

Don't fuck with a Gray Wolf

SkyHighLer · Feb 26, 2014

Just got this from Ron at purezho.com,

"I'm sorry but our chemist posted the wrong paper, I brought it to the owners attention. He had the right paper posted right away . Thank you very much for bringing that to our attention . Anymore questions please contact me thanks.

On Feb 26, 2014, at 12:26 PM, John Schuyler <johnescooter50@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Ron, this is John S....... (SkyHighLer at the forums,) I got your email about availability of MZ12X. It has been pointed out at the forums that the MZ12X MSDS states "Dichloromethane formula & Carbon Dioxide," but the rest of the MSDS is uniquely describing dimethyl ether. Pure dimethyl ether and CO2 would be a great canned solvent I can get behind, but dichloromethane isn't going to fly. Best, John"

The only change in the MZ12X MSDS I see is "Dichloromethane formula & CO2" has been changed to "Formulated Organic Methane & Carbon Dioxide." Liquid methane can only be stored in cryogenic tanks, so they're still BSing around with us...

Kcar · Feb 26, 2014

I guess since Dimethyl Ether is also known as methoxymethane, they
feel its okay to call their product "Formulated Organic Methane & Carbon Dioxide".

They missed one 'Dichloromethane' in their MSDS sheet, though...

SkyHighLer · Feb 26, 2014

I just sent Ron at purezho.com an email basically begging them to come clean with the truth before GW eats them alive.... if they've got dimethyl ether in a can, they should be able to unload it all before the copycats appear, why they can't see this, I don't know.....

Gray Wolf · Feb 27, 2014

Dimethyl ether would be a completely different story than Methylene Chloride. Dimethyl ether is acually a butane molecule split in half, with the oxygen in the middle, instead of on one end like butyl alcohol. No flourine or chlorine atoms attached.

It would be called butyl ether, but the four carbon butane molecule split into two carbon atom chains, makes them two methyl segments, or di methyl.

At any rate, it is just carbon and hydrogen, with no known health risks at low concentrations. Lethal concentration for rats inhaling dimethyl ether was 309 ppm for 8 hours and 82,000 ppm for 1 hour.

Not a known carcinogen, teratogen, or mutagen.

Not in ready supply, and on the watch list, because it is used to make illegal drugs.

If that is what they have, they should say so. Not intended to disparage, but no chemist I know would make the mistake of posting a Methyl Chloride MSDS, with the CAS# missing and the verbiage scrubbed of critical health data, when they actually meant Dimethyl Ether.

I would vet information from such a "professional" very carefully in the future.

For instance, they switched the MSDS and it now shows 90% methane and 10% C02, yet Methane has a boiling point of -162C and can't be liquified at any pressure above about -87C and at -87C, it still takes about 46 bar pressure, or 666 psi, which is a little high for a spray can.

Ummmmm, what's wrong with this picture?

goldenequity · Feb 28, 2014

whoa...

whoa...

GW.. you nailed it.

dimethyl ether msds
http://www.airgas.com/documents/pdf/001021.pdf
MZ12X Organic Degreaser
http://purezho.com/mz12x_msds.pdf

a cut/copy/paste job 2 B sure...

Why all the nonsense and subterfuge?
If you've got something people want... just sell it.. straight up.

more to the point.. what would be the downside to this extractant?
Is there one? Would it capture the turpenes as well/better than bho?

[YOUTUBEIF]http://youtu.be/l0uMTGwjiZw[/YOUTUBEIF]

Gray Wolf · Feb 28, 2014

goldenequity said:
GW.. you nailed it.

Why all the nonsense and subterfuge?

more to the point.. what would be the downside to this extractant?

I would have to go back and research it, but I think it was Skyhighler who first nailed it. I just expounded and elaborated.

I think the subterfuge is their efforts to thwart competition.

At 4.33, DE has a higher dielectric constant with the extra oxygen atom, than n-Butane at 1.4, so it will pick up more polar elements. It is also more water soluble and hygroscopic.

With a 34.6C/94.3F boiling point, versus n-Butane's -.5C/31.5F boiling point, it takes more energy (heat) to evaporate it away, and would take more monoterpenes with it as it left.

http://depts.washington.edu/eooptic/linkfiles/dielectric_chart[1].pdf

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/liquid-dielectric-constants-d_1263.html

A frozen dimethyl ether extraction would extract less water and polar elements than a QWISO or a QWET, and should produce better aromatics, because of its high vapor pressure and lower boiling point.

If it is dimethyl ether, then it is another tool in the tool box, but not the great panacea. Easier to use than alcohol for extractions, but not better than other available methods and certainly not the answer to the maiden's prayer.

The trick to making aromatic extractions isn't extracting the terpenes, it is holding onto them in their natural form while purging the solvent.

Until the contents of the ZHO cans are properly identified, I recommend against using any for extractions, or even wall cleaning without proper respirator and protective gear. At this point, they are blowing smoke and we are guessing.

As to what I would do if I had a high purity diethyl ether supply, knowing that a MSDS is required to sell to the public, I would list the contents and establish premier brand name recognition.

"This isn't just some cheap industrial grade degreaser, this is THE ORIGINAL ZHO, which is pharma grade and certified to be as pure as mother's milk and the driven snow."

From a practical standpoint, its ~100F boiling point, makes it as easy as n-Pentane to purge an to recycle using a simple water cooled condenser.

Highly flammable and an almost invisible flame.

The other thought of course, is that diethlyl ether is used for enough other purposes that are illegal, that its sale and distribution will no doubt attract the attention of the DEA, if not the ATF.

Anyone using a lot, will most likely attract a lot of attention, so discretion might suggest keeping your affairs transparent, as well as your cards and hands on the table and visible at all times, so as to not even suggest any malfeasance.

Kcar · Feb 28, 2014

Dimethyl Ether boils at -11F or -24C

Diethyl Ether boils at 94.3F or 34.6C

Gray Wolf · Feb 28, 2014

Kcar said:
Dimethyl Ether boils at -11F or -24C

Diethyl Ether boils at 94.3F or 34.6C

True, I meant the ~100F to read "about 100F", so as to point out it is in the ballpark with Pentane at 36.1C/97F.

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927164

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927384

http://www.airgas.com/documents/pdf/001021.pdf

Dimethyl ether, is based on the ethane molecule split in half with and oxygen molecule, leaving one methyl leg on either side and is also relatively non toxic.

It should be easier to purge than butane, but is more water soluble.

goldenequity · Feb 28, 2014

purge...

purge...

I don't mean to be a proponent nor opponent..
but a simple question:

If, as you say, it is 'relatively' non-toxic, being 1 benefit over butane..
then
my question would be 2 fold:
1. Is it necessary then to purge it at all?
and
2. If not, then could you hold ON to those turpenes captured by NOT having to (heat) purge?

thx ahead 4 thoughts on this.
G.

SkyHighLer · Feb 28, 2014

Kcar said:
The weird thing is that they call it Dichloromethane ((Methylene Chloride)CH2CL2)

But if you scroll down to Section 9: Physical and Chemical Properties

It lists it as C2H6O better known as Dimethyl Ether.
And the properties list match Dimethyl Ether.

I think they are still trying to pull one over on us.

Gray Wolf said:
I would have to go back and research it, but I think it was Skyhighler who first nailed it. I just expounded and elaborated.

I think the subterfuge is their efforts to thwart competition.

At 4.33, DE has a higher dielectric constant with the extra oxygen atom, than n-Butane at 1.4, so it will pick up more polar elements. It is also more water soluble and hygroscopic.

With a 34.6C/94.3F boiling point, versus n-Butane's -.5C/31.5F boiling point, it takes more energy (heat) to evaporate it away, and would take more monoterpenes with it as it left.

http://depts.washington.edu/eooptic/linkfiles/dielectric_chart[1].pdf

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/liquid-dielectric-constants-d_1263.html

A frozen dimethyl ether extraction would extract less water and polar elements than a QWISO or a QWET, and should produce better aromatics, because of its high vapor pressure and lower boiling point.

If it is dimethyl ether, then it is another tool in the tool box, but not the great panacea. Easier to use than alcohol for extractions, but not better than other available methods and certainly not the answer to the maiden's prayer.

The trick to making aromatic extractions isn't extracting the terpenes, it is holding onto them in their natural form while purging the solvent.

Until the contents of the ZHO cans are properly identified, I recommend against using any for extractions, or even wall cleaning without proper respirator and protective gear. At this point, they are blowing smoke and we are guessing.

As to what I would do if I had a high purity diethyl ether supply, knowing that a MSDS is required to sell to the public, I would list the contents and establish premier brand name recognition.

"This isn't just some cheap industrial grade degreaser, this is THE ORIGINAL ZHO, which is pharma grade and certified to be as pure as mother's milk and the driven snow."

From a practical standpoint, its ~100F boiling point, makes it as easy as n-Pentane to purge an to recycle using a simple water cooled condenser.

Highly flammable and an almost invisible flame.

The other thought of course, is that diethlyl ether is used for enough other purposes that are illegal, that its sale and distribution will no doubt attract the attention of the DEA, if not the ATF.

Anyone using a lot, will most likely attract a lot of attention, so discretion might suggest keeping your affairs transparent, as well as your cards and hands on the table and visible at all times, so as to not even suggest any malfeasance.

The credit for seeing the obvious discrepancy in the MZ12X MSDS, and identifying dimethyl ether as the real solvent goes to Kcar.

GW and I got into it yesterday with Ron and I believe Doctor Z, it's dimethyl ether, but they're going to withhold publishing the rest of the formula to avoid Chinese copycats until they've established a distribution network.

Ron's offered GW and I each six cans of MX12X, and I immediately sent him my address. I'll pay for the composition analysis if GW can find a lab.

Hair spray is made with dimethyl ether,

"These polymers are carried in a base of water and alcohol (usually denatured), and the liquified gas dimethyl ether which acts as the propellant. The dimethyl ether boils away as a gas when the spray head is pushed down, propelling the rest of the ingredients out in a fine mist."
http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/hair_spray.html

Best I can do...peace.

goldenequity · Feb 28, 2014

further thoughts...

further thoughts...

goldenequity said:
I don't mean to be a proponent nor opponent..
but a simple question:

If, as you say, it is 'relatively' non-toxic, being 1 benefit over butane..
then
my question would be 2 fold:
1. Is it necessary then to purge it at all?
and
2. If not, then could you hold ON to those turpenes captured by NOT having to (heat) purge?

thx ahead 4 thoughts on this.
G.

thx sky, kcar and GW for all the detective work

my further thoughts/questions...
I just cleaned the pool for a spring cleanup here in Phoenix
and had time to ponder...

if, then, your didn't have to purge...
I guess you wouldn't really have an 'absolute' extraction
because of the water content...
but
the upside as far as medicine, would be that you get to keep more canabinoids and turpenes???

Do I have this right?

Pure ZHO extraction solvent

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