No till 20 gallon

lotus710 said:

yeah ive been here for a year and i love it soo much! i havnt ran into any assholes its nice

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Allow me to introduce myself.

Weird can handle his own introduction.

I would speculate that no-till is a step backwards in cultivation actually. You are limiting your ability to work the soil and creating a closed loop system actually requires a closed loop. It's not a closed loop though because you're pulling out nutrients and organic matter every time you harvest.

I've stated my reasons why I believe it better to work the soil and lightly till in new ingredients. We don't have to see eye to eye on this. I wouldn't call what I do "primitive" like Weird did, but to each their own.

Regardless, both are better options than the traditional hydro store/bottled nutrient route.

My suggestion would be to at least test the soil every couple runs so you can see what excesses and deficiencies may be accumulating over time because you are potentially compounding the problem if you're not bringing in new sources of minerals (see the chapter on compost in The Intelligent Gardener for a lengthier explanation).

KIS said:

I would speculate that no-till is a step backwards in cultivation actually. You are limiting your ability to work the soil and creating a closed loop system actually requires a closed loop. It's not a closed loop though because you're pulling out nutrients and organic matter every time you harvest.

I've stated my reasons why I believe it better to work the soil and lightly till in new ingredients. We don't have to see eye to eye on this. I wouldn't call what I do "primitive" like Weird did, but to each their own.

Regardless, both are better options than the traditional hydro store/bottled nutrient route.

My suggestion would be to at least test the soil every couple runs so you can see what excesses and deficiencies may be accumulating over time because you are potentially compounding the problem if you're not bringing in new sources of minerals (see the chapter on compost in The Intelligent Gardener for a lengthier explanation).

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So far I'm loving my no till set up way better then my rxgreen solutions bottles! How do I find this chapter on compost?

Mikell said:

Allow me to introduce myself.

Weird can handle his own introduction.

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haha mikell beat me to it

hope ya don't mind one more opinionated PITA grabbin a seat qball

i'll start rollin some joints for everyone

qball520 said:

So far I'm loving my no till set up way better then my rxgreen solutions bottles! How do I find this chapter on compost?

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It's a book by Steve Solomon. He wrote Gardening West of the Cascades and founded Territorial Seed. His premise is that if you are composting your plant material and eating off your land and then re-applying the composted material, you're compounding any mineral deficiencies or excesses you may have. Hence the importance of a soil test. $25 with Logan Labs. Easy enough to do.

And then it's a matter of managing the soil to increase what he's calling "nutrient density" in your plants.

Again, this is just my opinion based on the research and experience I've done. No-till does work.

KIS said:

It's a book by Steve Solomon. He wrote Gardening West of the Cascades and founded Territorial Seed. His premise is that if you are composting your plant material and eating off your land and then re-applying the composted material, you're compounding any mineral deficiencies or excesses you may have. Hence the importance of a soil test. $25 with Logan Labs. Easy enough to do.

And then it's a matter of managing the soil to increase what he's calling "nutrient density" in your plants.

Again, this is just my opinion based on the research and experience I've done. No-till does work.

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Thanks for the info! Imma check out that book for sure!

Steve has graced us with his presence before and I'm sure he will be back again.

Fantastic book. I keep those things in mind when building my soil and what I add as far a mineral components.

There are a whole bunch of great soil agronomist S out there preaching their version of mineral balancing. Steve Soloman has his, John Kempf has his, Gramme Sait is a little different, Dr Arden Anderson is still a little different and Hugh Lovel has his own biodynamic spin.

They all have a core idea of the Ca:Mg:k ratios And some go further. They all work great but they rarely ever hit the mark Dead on and many soils are transitioning and still do great with minimally balanced soil.

I have personally spoke to a few of them and all have said humus and life are the key and the more you have the more imbalance the soil can stand. Not saying that is something you want but if you don't over do it on mineral amendments and follow some guidelines you should be fine.

A soil test now and then would be great. I know there was some ideas being thrown around here that soil tests might not be that accurate. Each lab is different number 1 and the it is known they go buy volume not weight. This leads to drastic differences in readings and recommendations.

I was a avid believer in soil testing/ mineral balanceing and still think it has its place as a guideline. To worry about the minerals before you consider a happy soil food Web is just doing a form of hydroponics where the plant relays on the small.amount of soluable nutrients slowly being released.

When you make sure you have a sound microbe populations via good compost and sound management of the soil. you can make sure you account for the extra k you have introduced by adding a little bit of gypsum to keep the Ca up.

Not a completely closed loop for sure. I will always add a little.something to keep the worms happy. Maybe some veggie scraps, kelp maybe, some alfalfa if is kicking around, oh and my favorite comfrey and I always have a thick layer of horsetail.

They never go on all at once and only in small amounts. The horse tail goes on whole, it takes a minute to breakdown but it give the mulch nice structure.

I have had soil for 5 + years. Never a soil test and not always approached in the best maner. With 3 years of proper management and follow the steps I just described, I can say I can't be happier.

All the teas and yadda yadda I was doing. Really all the want is a mulch some worm food and a shit load of worms. Keep it moist and you will be rewarded. Not saying I don't do a sprout tea, humics or any other goodings from time to time. 95% of the time just water.

Always follow a tried and true recipe for getting it going. The first run will be good. Maintain a living/dead mulch and get the life up durring the first run and your post become little composters of all you gardening scraps.

Huh? where am I. I don't know who's thread I just spewed all over but I am sorry. God damn fresh Williams wonder/haze/thai x big sur holy weed, its a mental rocket ship to bliss land. Or it could have been the Zazen?

I jave been trimming like a man man the past few days and have time to think.

KIS- now way trying to discredit what you think or do. Just my observations and conclusion from the information presented to me.

Also I know our high peat base soils behave differently then clay/sand/loam soils.

I has been said by some of the mineral.balancing crew here who do both outdoor soil and indoor peat base mixes.

Mineral balancing our types of soils is in charted territory. A few are jumping in and hamering out numbers as best as they can. Labs are just starting to figure it out them self's.

Not many places in nature do you find soils above 7-10 % organic matter. Most agronomist reccomend about 5%.

"95% of the time just water"

Amen.

Vortex,

Good posts. I think we have similar thoughts on the subject. I agree that all the "experts" have slightly different opinions and recommendations. I treat them as "guidelines" as well and consider soil tests to fall into that same category. Just FYI, I confirmed with MM last week that Logan Labs uses ICP on their Meilich 3 test (standard soil test). I've got tests on our soil going back 4-5 years now and it allows me to see where excesses and deficiencies may be starting to occur so I can correct for them. Our tests always come back high K, which I've worked on reducing somewhat but I'm not convinced that cannabis doesn't like/use K. I'm happy to share these tests if anyone wants to see them.

Keep in mind, I'm not a mineral guy. I didn't start looking into mineralization very heavily until Solomon's book came out. Prior to that I was coming from the "Soil Food Web" camp with a heavy focus on ACT and other microbial inputs. My father was one of the first SFI advisors and worked with Dr. Ingham in establishing industry standards for brew length, micron size on mesh bags, e. coli testing, etc...must have spent close to 100K with SFI and Earthfort at one point. Then I met MM and he taught me microscopy and we've done the majority of biological testing in-house since then.

I'll keep an eye on this.

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Thank you kis and vortex for both of your guys knowledge! Looks like I might have to do some reading to make sure I get the no till down 100%!

tag

Avinash.miles said:

tag

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What's up bro? You do no till too?

Looking good, qball. Have you check out Adam Dunn's podcast? He had Coot on a couple weeks ago and they were talking about soil. If you haven't checked it out yet, you should.

I have 20s myself and I'll be running them outdoors again with the same untilled soil from last year. Got some cover crop seeds from build-a-soil in the containers now and I'll be adding compost in another few weeks. I think I found a local source for Malibu compost, just gotta drive south a bit to get it.

Good luck with your grow, man.

HB.

Robrites said:

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Thanks bro!

Hemphrey Bogart said:

Looking good, qball. Have you check out Adam Dunn's podcast? He had Coot on a couple weeks ago and they were talking about soil. If you haven't checked it out yet, you should.

I have 20s myself and I'll be running them outdoors again with the same untilled soil from last year. Got some cover crop seeds from build-a-soil in the containers now and I'll be adding compost in another few weeks. I think I found a local source for Malibu compost, just gotta drive south a bit to get it.

Good luck with your grow, man.
HB.

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Thank you HB! I here the Adam Dunn show ever now and again but haven't checked out the one about the soil. Do you know what episode it Is? I'm going to run this same smart pots out door this year too! I heard good things about the Malibu compost let me know how it goes bro!

I'll throw a shoulder behind no-till. We grew indoors in bins, last time we grew indoors.

[BTW I do believe it was me who started a good share, if not the whole, no-till indoor 'thing' Jaykush too... then those other guys jumped on the bandwagon. Maybe there were others before us...3Little Birds?]

(along with living soil)

Our bins were 12" wide x 14" deep by 36" long which is 26 gallons so not that different than the 20 gallon containers the OP is using. Our oldest set of bins were 7 years old running no-till. > same soil.

First of all lets define no-till in the terms which we used it. We did disturb up to 2 inches of the top as we worked in topdressed organic matter. This is permitted by the ramial chip advocates as well, as one works the chips 'slightly' into the soil.

If you read my article on living soil you will see this area is known as the detritusphere, an area where detritus or organic matter falls. The microbes in this region are fast growing and accustomed to change as soil becomes dry or saturated, etc.

The microbes [bacteria, archaea and fungi] in this region utilize the oxygen, nitrogen and even light available as fuel to rapidly degrade organic matter into a form utilized by roots and other microbes at the next level down.

So no-till can mean 'light till' if that is indeed what KIS meant. [2 inches]

As we progress into the depths of the soil microbes are arranged hierarchically and in a large container it may take close to a year for these to become so established. (this is explained in my article)

It is these microorganisms that should not be disturbed and this is exactly what reamended soils do.

As defined, seemingly, by Coot and Gas a reamended soil is dumped and remixed (AFAIK).

Now to define living soil for the millionth time. Living soil is not a damn mix. It is LIVING.

It is not a recipe which supports a plant. If you wish to grow that way, go for it but don't call it living soil. It is commercially acceptably defined organics.

Living soil supports worms, microorganisms and arthropods. That is what living is. The one drawback to living soil is that it may take a season to come to life but it will reward you by getting better as it grows.

Is there a time limit in containers? I'm not sure. I had to shut down at 7 years (authorities).

The authority speaks!! Thanks MM.

I don't know if I trust this guy though. With 4000 posts he could be full of crap.

KIS- my man sound like you know whats going on. Great to have another dirt nerd amongst us.

Qball- keep an open mind and steer clear of most people trying to sell you things and you be good. I have some great recommendations if your interested.

The first concept to grasp is how to build and maintain and healthy microbe population

Second thing which will help everything to fall into place is cation exchange and how that works. Understanding how nutrients are absorbed and held in the humus or clay for future use and how a plant can access it.

There is two worlds at play both chemical and biological. I have found understanding how the soil works helps me to help feed and nuture it. It is increadbly complex.

If all else fails just follow the path layed out by Microbeman, the rols crew, 3rdeye and others on this noble path. The know personally I want to shout from the hills, "there's a better way to grow your meds". We will all help where we can.