Ca-, Mg, RA? Pics inside

I started with 10 Lemon Skunk seeds, ran them twice in Coco before picking one for a keeper. I grew that into a mother and started running all clones of this one plant/pheno in coco, and it always worked great. I recently switched to DWC and have been getting a constant, from putting them into the veg tent, until harvest, Ca or Mg def. (I think).

The DWC mix for veg is

RO water 0-5ppm
CalMag+ 2ml/Gal
FloraDuo A 2ml/Gal
FloraDuo B 6ml/Gal
Aquashield 10ml/Gal
Floralicious Plus .5ml/Gal
GH RapidStart 1ml/Gal

That mix comes out to around 1.0EC, with 200ppm of that from the CalMag+ (if it IS a Ca/Mg def why doesn't this fix it?)

I've tried swinging the pH from 5.2 to 6.3, from 6.3 to 5.2, tried to hold it steady at 5.2, 5.8, 6.2, they do this no matter what pH I try, so I don't think it's a pH issue. As it is when I mix the solution it comes out to 5.3 and floats up to 6.0 without any pH additives which is pretty much optimal for DWC.

I checked the hydroton and root mass for over 30 minutes with a 60x scope for root aphids or other pests in the root area, and have also ruled out spider mites. The 50g of solution in veg has over 80lpm of air going into it along with a 10GPM pump creating a waterfall with the return water into the system...so I don't think its a D.O. problem, and the roots are pearl white, so I know it's not a rot issue.

I think I covered everything I know you guys would want to ask....so I'm at a loss here. I feel bad for my plants actually, like a doctor and I just don't know what's wrong with them .

The Flower mix, which doesn't help or hurt the problem is

RO water
2ml/Gal CalMag+
3ml/Gal FloraDuo A
9ml/Gal FloraDuo B
2ml/Gal Liquid Koolbloom
1ml/Gal Floralicious Plus
10ml/Gal Aquashield

That comes out to around 1.2EC.....I would think to raise the EC of the solution to "lucas" numbers which with FloraDuo would be 5ml/Gal A and 15ml/Gal B to get around 1.9 EC or 947ppm....but when I even get NEAR 1.4EC the tips burn, leaves turn dark green and curl under with obvious N overdose. That's why I started using the CalMag+ but it doesn't seem to help.

Have any of you guys ever had a plant that just plain didn't like hydro even if the parameters were perfect? I've run a few DWC systems before a never had issues like this...I'm wondering if it could just be that this strain or pheno is just not hydro compatible.

The pics look 100% like a ca/mg def, OR Root Aphid damage...but as I've said I've checked the roots/lower stem under the hydroton...and as I've also said I've ran every pH possible and added calmag+...to no avail. Feel like I covered all my bases but still failed here Maybe I should take another look at the roots for RA's?

Thanks for any opinions/help.

Is the hydroton new?

I always have to add more calcium when using new hydroton to avoid the calcium rust. That's what it looks like to me.

Yes...I never reuse hydroton, always buy a new bag when starting a new batch...none of the hydroton is in the water though, just holding the plant up...not many roots in it either just a few since they all hang below so not sure what you mean?'

If I got all of the product labels inserted correctly into my nutrient calculator (man, you use a lot of stuff!), you are way low on both Ca & Mg. I just checked the veg formula, but you get 31ppm of Mg and 33ppm of Ca with your recipe. Most strains seem to like to be up about 50ppm for Mg, and Ca should be 2-3x the Mg. These values are for soil/soil-less/coco, not hydro. I'll check again in the morning!

That even with the 2ml/Gal CalMag+?!? I get around 180-200ppm of JUST the CalMag+ so your telling me only 64ppm of the 200 is actually Ca and Mg? I have a bone to pick with Botanicare if thats the case!

Thanks for trying it out in your calculator

New hydroton sucks. It's great after it's been seasoned though.

rives said:

If I got all of the product labels inserted correctly into my nutrient calculator (man, you use a lot of stuff!), you are way low on both Ca & Mg. I just checked the veg formula, but you get 31ppm of Mg and 33ppm of Ca with your recipe. Most strains seem to like to be up about 50ppm for Mg, and Ca should be 2-3x the Mg. These values are for soil/soil-less/coco, not hydro. I'll check again in the morning!

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Not to mention that a 1:1 ratio of Ca:Mg is bound to throw things off. I don't use a calculator but I absolutely agree with you, except for those Ca numbers, IMO I think the Ca:Mg ratio needs to be a bit higher, with 3:1 being a minimum, not a maximum.


OP, I see a Ca-, a N+ (dark green leaves? If not so dark green, then it may be a N-) and, barring N-, then P-. What suggests this to me are those reddened petioles. You've also got curling at the leaf tip, may indicate Mg- but IME you usually observe chlorosis on the lowers first.

In other words, you've got a whole lot more going on than just a 'Cal-Mag' problem. It also seems that you're mixing up symptoms of Ca- vs Mg-. Since you didn't depict the whole plant we can't really tell, but I'm going to say that Mg- is not an issue here, only Ca-. Like the guy who said above about the Ca rust, I agree.

Can you get up pix of the whole plant? It's important for diagnosis.

SeaMaiden said:

IMO I think the Ca:Mg ratio needs to be a bit higher, with 3:1 being a minimum, not a maximum.

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I would tend to agree with you. I was trying to go with "conventional wisdom" rather than what I run. After reading both Yosemite Sam's and your thoughts on the subject, I changed to running 3:1 and my plants are way happier.

Hydrolized said:

That even with the 2ml/Gal CalMag+?!? I get around 180-200ppm of JUST the CalMag+ so your telling me only 64ppm of the 200 is actually Ca and Mg?

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The percentage of Ca & Mg is actually fairly low in CalMag+. My tap water is very near RO, with virtually no Ca or Mg. For my bonsai moms I use 8ml/gallon of CalMag+ along with a nutrient designed for tap water, and it's been working well for about 1-1/2 years.

I think that perhaps your meter is reading high. I just double-checked what I get with CalMag+ this morning, and 2ml/gallon gives me an EC of .3 or 140ppm on the .5 scale with a near-new BlueLab EC pen. Additionally, the calculator shows that you are much lower in nutrient strength (based off of ingredient concentrations) than my nutrients are when I am running at an EC of 1.2.

It looks to me as though your plants are both hungry and way too low on Ca & Mg. Below is the link for the calculator that I use. It is kind of a pain to get all of the base information in, but once you get it set up, I have found it extremely helpful. This would probably be a good spot to put in a plug for Veg+Bloom RO formula - I think that you could do away with 6 or 7 bottles of stuff and have some happy girls if you tried it out.





http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/premixppm3b.zip

Thanks for the replies.

Shafto....I triple rinse my hydroton until no "dust" comes out in the runoff...and like I said the hydroton sits 3-4" above the water line and just holds the plants, although the bubbles wet the bottom few inches so maybe that is doing something. Thanks for the information.

SeaMaiden...I put up some overall pics in this post...the ones under the screen are day 5 flower...the lights off pics are another tent on day 46 flower...and the little sad looking one is in the veg tent...you will notice the ones on day 46 are all have the claw and tip burn, looks like either a P- or N+...I'm betting on N+ since the PPM in that tent always climbs if I mix anything over 1.2EC.

I think that's the problem with this strain/pheno...I think it's very N sensitive so when I mix the solution using the FloraDuo to make it low enough in N, its TOO low in all the other elements...is that a possibility?

Rives...thanks for the link but it 404's for some reason. I was using old numbers when I posted that so today I did some testing..

I use EC but ill use PPM @ .5 to make it easier to read...

1 gallon of my RODI water came to 0ppm.

1ml of CM+ brought it to 60ppm
1ml of FloraDuo A added 80ppm
1ml of FloraDuo B added 40ppm

So when I mixed my 2ml CM+, 2ml FDA, 6ml FDB mix it came to 520ppm. Like I said earlier if I try mixing any more FloraDuo the tips burn, claw. I read that messing with the 1:3 ratio of FloraDuo A/B shouldn't be done, and that 1:3 will keep you at lucas ratios. Maybe I just need to try more CalMag? Ill try mixing 5ml/gal CalMag on the next res change.

If SeaMaiden is right about the ratio, if my CalMag+ has a 1:1 ratio how would I go about mixing a 3:1 using what I have? I'm not liking this strain/pheno for all this nonsense...I think it's just a sensitive strain.

Thanks a lot for all the help so far.

You can't, you need an additional Ca product. Many folks go with Calplex, but the product bothers me in that it's only like 3% Ca, whereas BioLink makes an organic (certified) 6% Ca product.

So if it were me I would use Epsom salt as the Mg and S, and BioLink for the Ca. Doing it that way I can alternate using them in feedings, which allows me a lot more leeway in terms of strength.

Looking at this second group of pix, IMO you do have a slight Mg- beginning. However, if you use the Cal-Mag product you already have, it may not be providing sufficient Ca in relation to Mg, so the Ca may need additional supplementation. You do know that you can give it as a foliar, yes? In fact, that's my current recommendation while you decide if you're going to nurse this along or go ahead and get the separate Ca product--foliar feed the Cal-Mag at 5ml/gal.

There are definitely sensitive strains, but for a few years I ran one that I thought was worth it--The White. Lost her last year post-op, so starting from scratch this year. The White is known as a Ca/Mg whore, but in my opinion she's ok with the Mg she gets, it's bunches of Ca that she seems to need.

The only component besides CalMag+ that you are using that is high in Ca is the FluoroDua A, which is also going to take your N much higher. You are having the same problem that I had with my water - most nutrients seem to be compounded for tap water, which normally carries quite a bit of Ca & Mg. That is why I suggested the V+B - it has a 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio, with the N being slightly lower than the Ca.

I don't know why the calculator link isn't working for you, it works find for me. If you are interested in using it, Google "Cannastats Downloads", and the top file on the page (premixppm3b.zip) is the one that you want. It is the only way that I've found to see what you are getting, particularly when you are using a variety of products. You can also input your source water parameters and have it include that information in the calculations.

Free sample of V+B - http://www.hydroponic-research.com/request.html

youre using RO WATER. as well as cal mag. BOTANICARE recommends at least 4mls of calmag per gallon when using RO. I start at 2..get to eight usually.. then back down eventually. double the dose to 4mls..it should help.

Thanks for the replies guys. I upped the CM+ to 5ml/gal so it came out to 280ppm...hopefully that helps.

Rives....I checked out the V+B but it looks just like Maxibloom powder that people use @ 7 grams/gallon (KISS). I tried that before using Duo and kept having problems with it bubbling out of solution and coating the roots bright pink with powder....you have any issues like this?

I have never liked foliar feeding but I'll give it a try this run...is there a best time to do it in relation to the light cycle?

Hydrolized said:

Rives....I checked out the V+B but it looks just like Maxibloom powder that people use @ 7 grams/gallon (KISS). I tried that before using Duo and kept having problems with it bubbling out of solution and coating the roots bright pink with powder....you have any issues like this?

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The strongest that I've run the V+B is an EC of 1.6, which took just over 4 grams/gallon. I've never run it with anything besides Drip Clean (I use Blumats), so I can't really speak to whether or not there would be precipitation problems when combined with other nutrients. The good part is that it doesn't seem to need any other nutrients! For me, it dissolved quickly and cleanly, and stayed that way.

The only problem that I had with it was when I was trying to hard - I initially tried to dissolve it in a jar full of warm water so that I could shake it up, and it didn't work worth a damn. I contacted Chris, the owner of HR, and he said not to do the premixing as it would cause problems. Now I just slowly sift it into the reservoir (dumping in a large amount all at once takes longer to dissolve) and it seems to dissolve before it hits bottom. I do have a stir pump in my main reservoir, but it appears to be unnecessary after the initial mixing.

Purple crack at 60 days with V+B, Botanicare Aeromix (screen has 2" openings) -

Looks like it works good! I assume you are running some type of soil-less or coco since your using blumats? That's the issue I have....since running DWC it's easy for things to "bubble out"...Ill email HR and ask about this.

Yes, I'm using coco, but I think it was really designed for full hydro. In one of my emails to Chris (the owner of HR), I was asking about not changing out the reservoir as recommended because my system is non-recycling and how long I could reasonably expect the premixed nutrients to stay good. He said "Veg+Bloom is 100% soluble and will stay suspended in your mixed solution however you may want to stir your reservoir to prevent algae growth and homogenize your feed solution."

I'm awaiting an Email back. Also something else I noticed....the buds on these plants since switching to hydro are not nearly as dense...they are very airy and looks like the yield will not be nearly as good...aside from the factors I always know about that causes airy buds (high temps, low light) which are not a problem in my setup...leads me to believe it's the nutrients again. Are there nutrient deficiencies that directly relate to airy buds...could it be coming from my Ca problem? Kind of disappointed with this strain now.

In general bottled nutes have a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio. In pure hydro, hydroton, etc...stuff with no cec...you would be far better off with a 3:1 ratio.

The second problem comes cause everyone mis
diagnoses the resulting Ca deficiency (and possible shortage of N) for a "CalMag" deficiency. But then you add CalMag which mostly either a) still has the fucked up 2:1 ratio or has a better ratio but gets it from Ca and Mg carbonate which then fucks with pH.

The third gate of hydro hell is then entered when you still believe you have a CalMag deficiency and add even more til some point when your EC is so high it burns your leaves.

And just to make it even more fun bottled nutes use way too much K which tends to lock out the Mg in the first place.

Here is the easy way out of the vicious cycle. Throw that fucking bottle of CalMag in the trash and buy you some CaNO3 (calcium nitrate)...replace the N in the Cal Mag with the N in CaNO3. That right there will improve your Ca:Mg ratio and fix your real problem...well except the excess K.

Why don't bottle nute companies do that? I have a theory. If they had a one ingredient nute people would start to see just how fucked their prices really are.

Better yet, mix your own.

And while I am bashing nute companies why do they use MgNO3 or KNO3? Leave those out entirely and hitting that 3:1 ratio would become a piece of cake...oh yea, cause they like to sell you more ridiculously priced K in the form of a PK booster...are they trying to help you grow healthy plants or trying to improve their bottom line...enquiring minds want to know.

How many CalMag threads are there on the net? A million people having exactly the same problem and these guys telling us CalMag is the answer...don't think so.