Silica in flowering?

Douglas.Curtis · Jan 21, 2017

DocTim420 said:
exactly how much Si does a cannabis plant "want" as opposed to "require" or "need".

Good question...

At the end of the day, it comes down to how much Si "I" care to have in the plant, cannabis will easily absorb a hell of a lot more than I care for.

Having run the gamut of zero Si, all the way to waaay too much, I'll stick with using it the first week of flower, in my flowering reservoir. There seems to be plenty for stretch, leaving the remainder to be absorbed during the remaining weeks. (Haven't dumped a res, mid-flower, in nearly 15 years)

It's interesting, I rarely run across 'frangible' cannabis these days, not since a couple years after Si hit the cannabis boards. Certainly nothing as frangible as mine. I've also noticed the average cannabis user/grower be surprised when they see my bud crush so easily.

Apparently the frangibility I enjoy is usually only seen with over-dried cannabis. *shrug*

DocTim420 · Jan 22, 2017

Doug,

I subscribe to the philosophy that a plant will pick and choose what it wants when root feeding (ala smorgasbord)--but when it comes to foliar feeding, it is akin to force feeding corn to a duck or goose for the production foie gras (damn good stuff too).

So when a plant is sprayed with a Potassium Silicate solution--it is being forced fed (whether it wants/need/requires it or not) with large doses of Silica and Potassium.

But when "Si fertilizers" are mixed in the grow medium, the plant decides when and how much Si to uptake via roots. Unfortunately, there are many, many sources of Si "fertility"--but all are not equal. Some are "natural" others are "processed", and some take a bit longer to become "plant available" (but remain active in the grow medium for years) while others are almost instantly available (but dissipate incredibly fast--now you see it and now you don't).

Obviously I am in the "smorgasbord" camp.

Douglas.Curtis · Jan 22, 2017

DocTim420 said:
Doug,

I subscribe to the philosophy that a plant will pick and choose what it wants when root feeding (ala smorgasbord)

Again...

This statement is true for NON hyper/dynamic accumulators, like cucumbers and tomatoes. Cannabis enjoys more pathways of uptake than the passive ionic uptake you're thinking of. Check out the alternate pathways of absorption dynamic/hyper accumulators use.

They're capable of absorbing (and permanently packing away) elements they have zero need for.

neverforget4/20 · Jan 22, 2017

DocTim420 said:
Let's try it this way--are you saying my "Si assertions" are false? And that cannabis is exempt from enjoying the benefits of Si applications? As that seems to be your position---since you are disagreeing with me.

Like I said, second best is better than nothing--not preaching anything, not stirring shit up, just applying a simple skill called "critical thinking" to a situation where there appears to be no "definitive conclusion".

Such as this query--exactly how much Si does a cannabis plant "want" as opposed to "require" or "need". Very different concepts (or are we stuck on that reading comprehension thing again?). As most of us know, amount of Si detected in a plant tissue--is not the same as the amount required for the plant to "grow" (amount of Si available in the grow medium).

And then we have the "Plant Available Si" arguments.....lol.

Witlessly repeating "reading comprehension" and posturing as if you're presenting a well thought out argument only highlights childlike insecurities.

What you're calling "critical thinking" is nothing of the sort. Youve dumbed down "my position" into a idiotic statement that you're comfortable grappling with. Youve confused critical thought with compulsive gas-bagging. Stoner sites are clotted with folks who feel that an ability to grow flowers confers powers of biological insight. It doesn't.

I stated from the get go that Ive used several Si inputs. I stated that I've read some of the academic literature on Si applications in corn and turf. I stated that read through some of the links suggested by clown baby. I'm not disputing the role of Si in plant health.

My point is that no one here has any solid science relating to mj and silica. No one has shown a soil analysis, sap analysis or tissue analysis showing validated measurements and comparisons. Those would be called facts. You claim to to be using "facts" yet you admit there are none, "critical thinking" !

The state of understanding Si inputs on mj crops is purely anecdotal. The biological dynamics of Si application haven't even been mentioned. My observation is that the thread in general lacks credibility and that more than a few of the posts suffer from the tiresome need for many stoners to know-it-all. I mentioned the very first misleading response where the responder knows the answer without even understanding the question.

neverforget4/20 · Jan 22, 2017

Douglas.Curtis said:
First week of flower only.

Otherwise you need to use a grinder or scissors to break the bud up.

You dont know a thing about the OP's situation, conditions, current Si levels, length of flowering yet you offer a expert like pronouncement.

DocTim420 · Jan 22, 2017

Never...then I guess you will admit my original "assertion" is true--

DocTim420 said:
...That said, I do know that Si applications (both foliar and root applications) will thicken the cell walls of plants (measured by higher concentrations of Si and metal cations found in treated plants) and thicker walls make it harder for a plant to fall prey to disease and vector attacks. This bit of info we all should should know and accept as fact....

Since you are unable to prove it wrong...then what the hell is the "disagreement"? I think you want to "argue" for "argument sake".

DocTim420 · Jan 22, 2017

Douglas.Curtis said:
Again...

This statement is true for NON hyper/dynamic accumulators, like cucumbers and tomatoes. Cannabis enjoys more pathways of uptake than the passive ionic uptake you're thinking of. Check out the alternate pathways of absorption dynamic/hyper accumulators use.

They're capable of absorbing (and permanently packing away) elements they have zero need for.

Of course cannabis is an accumulator (especially heavy metals)--but aren't we discussing Si? Isn't the process to convert Si from the grow medium to "Plant Available Si" (PAS) rather unique? Not all sources of Si are "equal". And not all plants uptake Si at the same levels/amounts.

Now when it comes to Cannabis--lots of stoner logic out there--but from everything that I have read indicates cannabis accumulates very little Si. One study of (735 plant species from 125 studies) determined that percent of Si concentration found in plant tissues (dry weight basis) of Cannabis sativa was 0.089%...now compare that to Triticum aestivum (wheat) at 11.3%.

So it appears Cannabis does select which element it accumulate--and not accumulate. Strange huh!

On edit--here is the link to the study and the excel spreadsheet sent to me from the author lists the Si percentages I cited above.
https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/96/6/1027/216512/Phylogenetic-Variation-in-the-Silicon-Composition#2377388

Dioni · Jan 23, 2017

DocTim420 said:
Of course cannabis is an accumulator (especially heavy metals)--but aren't we discussing Si? Isn't the process to convert Si from the grow medium to "Plant Available Si" (PAS) rather unique? Not all sources of Si are "equal". And not all plants uptake Si at the same levels/amounts.

Now when it comes to Cannabis--lots of stoner logic out there--but from everything that I have read indicates cannabis accumulates very little Si. One study of (735 plant species from 125 studies) determined that percent of Si concentration found in plant tissues (dry weight basis) of Cannabis sativa was 0.089%...now compare that to Triticum aestivum (wheat) at 11.3%.

So it appears Cannabis does select which element it accumulate--and not accumulate. Strange huh!

On edit--here is the link to the study and the excel spreadsheet sent to me from the author lists the Si percentages I cited above.
https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/96/6/1027/216512/Phylogenetic-Variation-in-the-Silicon-Composition#2377388

We all understand that and thanks for reiterating what I said previously...when viewing dry flower testing of ALL minerals and compounds, outdoor with NONE added and indoor with SOME added the percentages were very similar!

But can your flowers be gently crushed in your bowl with the quick painless removal of a bud core? I know I have been doing it for about 25 years and I give my plants indoor Si to week 6 sometimes longer if I need a ph up. :biggrin:

Douglas.Curtis · Jan 23, 2017

DocTim420 said:
On edit--here is the link to the study and the excel spreadsheet sent to me from the author lists the Si percentages I cited above.
https://academic.oup.com/aob/articl...-Variation-in-the-Silicon-Composition#2377388

Does the author happen to mention the testing including the flowers? I see zero information on that in the abstract, just references to leaf and shoot. What was the author's main method of hydro for this experiment? What was their Si source? How was it applied to the soil/res and in what concentrations?

Dioni, your buds sound like mine. Congrats

DocTim420 · Jan 23, 2017

Douglas.Curtis said:
Does the author happen to mention the testing including the flowers? I see zero information on that in the abstract, just references to leaf and shoot. What was the author's main method of hydro for this experiment? What was their Si source? How was it applied to the soil/res and in what concentrations?

Dioni, your buds sound like mine. Congrats

Following is from the header of the excel spreadsheet:

Supplementary Information: Raw shoot/leaf Si concentration on a dry weight basis of 735 plant species sampled from 125 studies, contained in 54 papers in the primary literature (full references in Appendix), in which Si concentrations of leaf or non-woody shoot tissue were reported.

Each study included at least two plant species growing in the same environment, and each study contained at least one species in common with another study. A silica to Si conversion factor of 0.4674 was used. A residual maximum likelihood procedure on the 1066 linked data - using number codes (given in adjacent columns) - allowed the mean relative shoot Si concentration of species to be estimated, adjusted for differences between studies. Subsequent analyses were conducted using the same number codes.

And the detail in the excel spreadsheet indicate the Cannabis Sativa information came from Study 93.

I don't know if any of the studies were "hydro"--since this was probably "hemp" variety of "Cannabis sativa" (as we know is primarily grown for fiber...not flowers). But it did state: "Raw shoot/leaf Si concentration on a dry weight basis...in which Si concentrations of leaf or non-woody shoot tissue were reported."

I anticipate if the study included the "woody" portion (stems/branches) the Si concentration would be greater than what was reported from "leaf and raw shoots".

I can email the spreadsheet to anyone that wants it...just ask. The title of the spreadsheet is: "supp_mci255_mci255SuppMat".

Dioni · Jan 23, 2017

Douglas.Curtis said:
Dioni, your buds sound like mine. Congrats

Just for the record there are some genetics that accomplish what you are describing as...."easy to crush fresh buds" much easier than others...bud structure and grow STYLES play a big part in accomplishing what you claim to be a lack of the use of Si. :tiphat:

Douglas.Curtis · Jan 23, 2017

Dioni said:
Just for the record there are some genetics that accomplish what you are describing as...."easy to crush fresh buds" much easier than others...

Interesting, please go on?

Dioni said:
bud structure and grow STYLES play a big part in accomplishing what you claim to be a lack of the use of Si.

My research was conducted on the same strain, same style. Only difference was the variable of Si addition strengths.

Anecdotally, I mentioned the use of Pro-Tekt to one of the local growers outside Fairplay. One of the suppliers of the local dispensary there. I explained the branch strength and vascular system advantages, for when the plant goes into stretch and for feeding flower development.

2-3 months later, you nearly needed scissors to hack up some of their flowers for smoking. Different strains had different shearing strengths for sure, and later the Si "Toughness" faded away. It took about 6 months for them to dial it back.

DocTim420 · Jan 23, 2017

Of course this assumes...that the plants in question had an extraordinary uptake of plant available Si...and it accumulated mostly in the plant tissue of the flowers (hmm, how could this be?).

IMO, anecdotal observations are just that, "observations" and are not "definitive" of anything.

DocTim420 · Jan 23, 2017

I know this is not a Cannabis study--but it does compare Si concentration of a Helianthus annuus ‘Ring of Fire’ (sunflower) leaf, flower and stem after these treatments: KSiO3 five weekly drenches, Hydrous KSiO3 substrate incorporation, and Rice husk ash substrate incorporation.

Table 2 on page 6 has the detail.
http://www.nutricaodeplantas.agr.br/site/downloads/unesp_jaboticabal/Si_girassol2.pdf

Comparing Si concentration in the flower of the control and treated plants, there is very little difference between Rice husk ash treated plant and the control. But not so with both KSiO3 treatments since all flower #s are greater than the control, and of course all 3 treatments increased Si concentrations in both leaf and stem (as we would expect). So the flowers is where we have a disparity.

Since all 3 treatments reacted similar when measuring Si concentrations for leaf and stem, but not so when it came to flower Si concentration, then perhaps this creates another argument that comparing "passive Si" with synthetically produced Potassium Silicate is not comparing "apples to apples"?

But in all 3 treatments, stem Si concentration always exceeded the amount in found in flowers (hmmm, does that mean flowers may not be big Si accumulators as some think?).

Douglas.Curtis · Jan 24, 2017

So you don't know. It's ok. No, really, I swear you're fine.

Keep doing what you do, I'll keep doing what I do.

LostTribe · Jan 25, 2017

I have used Botanicare Silica Blast for many years and love it. Feel like it give better results than without.

Nichead · Jan 25, 2017

I use silica all the way through. My buds break up and burn fine, after a good cure. Before the cure, they are so dense that I've found myself using a grinder to get a good smoke, so I understand the sentiment. Stems as dry as can be, but the buds have to be cured, because of the density. I think that's a good problem though?

Doesn't Si have a dramatic effect on PH? There are so many factors...

DocTim420 · Jan 25, 2017

Aqueous silica products DO effect pH (as they are alkaline based and have a start pH of 10+)--but most other "passive" Si sources do not effect the grow medium's pH....at least that is the takeaway from my research.

And it also works the other way too--effectiveness of aqueous silica products are pH dependent (if the grow medium and/or liquid solution is at the wrong pH--then diminished effectiveness is almost a certainty).

LostTribe · Jan 26, 2017

DocTim420 said:
Aqueous silica products DO effect pH (as they are alkaline based and have a start pH of 10+)--but most other "passive" Si sources do not effect the grow medium's pH....at least that is the takeaway from my research.

And it also works the other way too--effectiveness of aqueous silica products are pH dependent (if the grow medium and/or liquid solution is at the wrong pH--then diminished effectiveness is almost a certainty).

Silica Blast does not effect my Ph.

seeded · Jan 26, 2017

The silica I use increases the pH considerably and makes quite the difference to the flowers depending on when it's used too. A little at the start makes for larger buds but the biggest difference I've seen is that the leaves and flowers are much thicker and denser feeling when it's used later in flower. To me it seemed like the plant material swelled up like mad without adding any trichomes so there was a harsher more chlorophyll like taste to the buds but they didn't seem to suffer too much in the smell or high department. The biggest issue I really had was that the buds were far more prone to bud rot than usual so now I just use a little while the plants are in vege and then once while they're stretching in flower which keeps them as tasty and happy as ever.

Silica in flowering?

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