Is there a standard of ethics in plant breeding?

sbeanonnamellow · Oct 7, 2020

If not, what should it be?

I've been wanting to make a post about breeding ethics for a while now but didn't want to force it. Wanted it to feel natural and earlier today I saw myself express some negative views towards a breeder and their tactics and I felt bad about it because I usually don't like to criticize others but then I thought, wait a minute. It said on the pack one thing, and the plants produced another.

They weren't hay or anything, they were actually very enjoyable in their own way, but they weren't as advertised in my opinion.

There's a lot of talk across the boards about lines being used that were shared as gifts or trades with the understanding that they wouldn't be released pure or released in certain ways and of course they were. Feelings hurt, bridges burnt, ect.

Theres a disclaimer on some seedpacks for sale that say not permitted for commercial reproductions without permission. I found it kind of appaling but maybe theres an angle or perspective that I'm not considering so I'd like to ask and know what does breeding ethics mean to you?

In any form, fashion, or sense or the words. What would be standards of ethics in plant breeding, or what aspects are important to you?

I don't like feeling negative towards someone so I'm kinda hoping someone will pop in to change my opinion. Much love

GMT · Oct 7, 2020

Hey, if you buy something that someone else has sourced the genes for, then spent time breeding, to simply knock out your own seeds from it, is considered "not on".
When selling something, you can't say how it will turn out, just a probability. So long as you list the genetics, that's fair play.
If someone shares their work on the condition it is shared freely, and not charged for, then to charge for knock offs of that line is not on. Thinking of ndn guy in particular there.
Basically, don't steal, don't misrepresent and you're good to go.

That's just my take

sbeanonnamellow · Oct 7, 2020

I'd never straight up knock off someone's IBL, errr IL...ummm you know what I mean. lol

It was just weird seeing it in print like that.

sbeanonnamellow · Oct 7, 2020

I just wanna make some homeade bomb ass hybrids to share joints with people and have them licking their lips going what the fuck that's delicious and either go eat the refrigerator, fall on their ass, or catch a case of the laughs and have an incredible social time. The last one being preferred

eyesdownchronic · Oct 7, 2020

Regardless of ones personal opinion on the ethics behind the issue, reality is that cannabis genetics are an unregulated market, so whatever you release or give out is truly at the discretion of whomever got the seeds. With that in mind its really the responsibility of the breeder to only release genetics which they are comfortable with others using. This doesnt imply that proper inbreeding is worthless as well bred individuals can be used as parental selections.

My own take though is that anyone who just uses anothers genetics isnt a breeder and why bother purchasing seeds from them. Only instances where this is understandable is with dead lines.

OldSSSCGuy · Oct 7, 2020

There aren't many ethics left many of the new current breeders. Lots of bag seed growers who then make up a silly name and claim all manner of lineage which they have never even seen. Sadly, many more of new "breeders" in the seed bank biz now than there are the honest, ethical breeders of old.

SuperBadGrower · Oct 7, 2020

Ethics in a black market?
Just kidding but maybe not... This is freedom, perhaps the alternative is also not attractive. ("intellectual property", lawsuits, Original Glue, copyrights, etc)
Try typing gorilla glue on this forum and watch as it gets corrected

El Timbo · Oct 7, 2020

eyesdownchronic said:
My own take though is that anyone who just uses anothers genetics isnt a breeder

Are you suggesting that "real" breeders should start with wild cannabis? Where else can someone start unless by using another breeder's work?

regseeds · Oct 7, 2020

eyesdownchronic said:
Regardless of ones personal opinion on the ethics behind the issue, reality is that cannabis genetics are an unregulated market, so whatever you release or give out is truly at the discretion of whomever got the seeds. With that in mind its really the responsibility of the breeder to only release genetics which they are comfortable with others using. This doesnt imply that proper inbreeding is worthless as well bred individuals can be used as parental selections.

My own take though is that anyone who just uses anothers genetics isnt a breeder and why bother purchasing seeds from them. Only instances where this is understandable is with dead lines.

Not true anymore, they're lawyers who offer IP protection for strains. You can publish your IP on pyhlos or medical genomics. If you directly use the same name same sequence you can expect to be sued. For those that know you sign MTA's to buy cbd hemp or cbg hemp i.e. you can't use the lines to re-create your own variety.

Commercial variety's don't need IP protection as 90% of it is rehashed lines or selected phenotypes feminized to be flavor of the month < These seeds don't have a shelf life for longer than 1 year, here today gone tomorrow. It's a simple game and nobody want's to make their lawyer rich for no reason.

As they say, If you want loyalty.......... buy a dog

regseeds · Oct 7, 2020

El Timbo said:
Are you suggesting that "real" breeders should start with wild cannabis? Where else can someone start unless by using another breeder's work?

Case and point. Look at the bloodstock industry, if you want to use see the stars set's you back $200,000 and the odds are still stacked against you. Always stack the odds in your favour *if possible

Breeding is a numbers game.

If your feminising seed, you don't have to do the grunt work of progeny testing.

Lester Beans · Oct 7, 2020

If you pay money for seeds then you can do whatever you want with them. Once the breeder releases them to the public for sale, they are free game. That's the blunt truth.

Now I do not support ripping off other people's work, profiting from it, etc. That's just a personal thing. If someone gives me a tester pack, I'm not going to let pollen fly, out of respect for the kind soul who gave them to me. But that's just personal beliefs.

I was given tomato seeds from a gentleman in Russia, he asked I do not share them with anyone else. Heirloom seeds. Well this guy didn't do anything but increase the stock. The genetics had been around for a hundred years. Does he have the right to throw down regulations?? I think not.

Cannabis strains today are built off decades old strains and many breeders going back through the lineage. I don't see how someone crosses a few strains and suddenly becomes in control of it. If that were the case everyone would be asking Sam, Nevil, Shanti permission for everything. Bah

Do what you want but give credit where credit is due, and be a good human being along the way and that's the best ethics get in the cannabis world imo.

art.spliff · Oct 7, 2020

Seeds are more trustworthy with collectively agreed standards. Say a minimum of one hundred seeds in ten identical packages with 90%+ germination and no prevalence of hermaphrodites. If ten seeds grow into five or ten different looking plants, feminized seed or not those are not stable seeds more of a freebie or do it yourself project. There are (way too) many people with a single grow tent taking cell phone pictures advertising seeds. It reminds me of Craig and Carolyn with their heirloom tomato books and seed catalogs. The guy grew tomatoes all in plastic bags on a concrete driveway and must have practically named each plant with a photograph and catalog description. When instead a person can plant a field like KC Brains. Who do you think will have more stable seeds a person cultivating 50-100+ kg of cannabis under the sun or someone photographing and cataloging seeds from each individual plant? The likelihood that someone gets upset or decides to ignore any standards or rules approaches one. There has to be verification from a second person in public view like a germination test and grow by someone who is not affiliated with the seed supplier/vendor/advertiser. Otherwise the same person is the referee salesperson judge and everything. This is starting to become redundant, there are some humans who work towards improving cannabis and its experience. Then there are others more like obnoxious auto or insurance salespeople without much to offer in the way of meaningful contribution to cannabis. Instead they speak loud and repeat themselves how they are here to stay, how you should still buy their seeds something or other along those lines. At least two personality and/or character types cultivators and clowns.

art.spliff · Oct 7, 2020

It would not be the same as with tomatoes but imagine if I (self-)pollinated every plant I have now from clones and seeds and gave each group of seeds a new name. So a matter of weeks or a few months maybe one year or two and I 'release' a catalog of varieties. If you ask that basic question about any seed vendor they may fall into one of two categories. I think that is ridiculous and the only way I'd do it is to give seeds away for the server fund. Another person on the other hand may feel that is their right and that is what they have been working on for weeks or months making copies to sell for profit. Everyone knows cookies for years now. But if an unknown person unrelated to cookies has all seeds for sale that are cookies, why would I buy that name brand knock off? Some people have their own lines which they have been working on and others have something copied.

El Timbo · Oct 7, 2020

I think there are 3 areas to be considered with this topic:

1. Ethical behaviour between breeders

2. Ethical behaviour in the breeder/consumer relationship

3. Ethical behaviour in terms of the plant species itself.

TakenByTheSky · Oct 7, 2020

There is no honor among theives

eyesdownchronic · Oct 7, 2020

El Timbo said:
Are you suggesting that "real" breeders should start with wild cannabis? Where else can someone start unless by using another breeder's work?

Of course I didnt mean to that extreme. Im referring to individuals buying a pack of seeds, finding a male and then using that individual to "breed." Thats the lowest level of breeding. Now if someone buys a pack of seeds, inbreeds it out a couple generations to select a specific pheno in the line thats ok, or if they cross it to something else to create an actually better cross and then use that as a parent, thats respectable too. More or less if you use someone elses genetics without making a change or selection before you use it youre just stealing someone elses work. It seems that this has become common place though.

eyesdownchronic · Oct 7, 2020

regseeds said:
Not true anymore, they're lawyers who offer IP protection for strains. You can publish your IP on pyhlos or medical genomics. If you directly use the same name same sequence you can expect to be sued. For those that know you sign MTA's to buy cbd hemp or cbg hemp i.e. you can't use the lines to re-create your own variety.

Commercial variety's don't need IP protection as 90% of it is rehashed lines or selected phenotypes feminized to be flavor of the month < These seeds don't have a shelf life for longer than 1 year, here today gone tomorrow. It's a simple game and nobody want's to make their lawyer rich for no reason.

As they say, If you want loyalty.......... buy a dog

Youre not wrong.

But only a tiny portion of the industry have access to the things needed to actually get IP. Getting a plant sequenced either requires infrastructure and legit molecular plant breeding and molecular bio knowledge. Or, you have to be in a place where you can send in material to a lab to be tested and trust they wont jack your new found strain. Plus since most growers/ breeders are still in the black market anyways there is very little recourse if some individuals uses your genetics.

OldSSSCGuy · Oct 7, 2020

regseeds said:
Not true anymore, they're lawyers who offer IP protection for strains. You can publish your IP on pyhlos or medical genomics. If you directly use the same name same sequence you can expect to be sued. For those that know you sign MTA's to buy cbd hemp or cbg hemp i.e. you can't use the lines to re-create your own variety.

There are people fighting that in CA, and odds are the lawyers' will spend most of their time chasing trademarks more than genetic patents. When they start allowing patents on cannabis genetics it will be Monsanto doom for true breeders. Patented genetics has not really turned out too well for American farmers.

Benny106 · Oct 7, 2020

Cant steal shit if you dont release it, you either want people to grow your stuff or not. If you're holding out to wait for the money, thats on you..to each they own.

Sadly there are no ethics involved.

OldSSSCGuy · Oct 7, 2020

eyesdownchronic said:
My own take though is that anyone who just uses anothers genetics isnt a breeder and why bother purchasing seeds from them. Only instances where this is understandable is with dead lines.

But that is almost impossible at the current time. Even "landrace" strains in the wild are mixed strains because so much strain pollution. It's one of the few things illustrated fairly by that 'Seed Hunter' video series. Try to find pure landrace Malawi ->IN<- Malawi - you can't as they found. Same with many of the original Mexican sativa strains. I remember pure Oaxacan, pure Sinoloan, and pure Michoacan from the 1980's which flooded the south and southwest USA. Each was unique and offered its own tasty profile (although Sinoloan swag always seemed to suck) All are now bastardized cross-breeds from the mass of wild pollen circulating for 30+ years now.

There are very, very few strains out there now which are -not- genetically based on the work of breeders in the 1970's-1980's. The point for me is whether the current breeder acknowledges that heritage and credits the (sometimes a total guess) original source. Instead we have a flood of pseudo-breeders taking bag seed and claiming all manner of fake heritage.

Personally I think that its one reason so many breeders have taken on (gag) automatics; because they are much harder for amateurs to propagate.

Is there a standard of ethics in plant breeding?

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