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No Till 2nd time and beyond?

I am having trouble finding the procedure for using my no till soil the second time and beyond. What are the procedures for amending your no till soil?
 

MedResearcher

Member
Veteran
Many ways to skin a cat.

Cut stalks. Fresh layer of amendments. Replant, Compost tea.

If your replants are not quite ready, compost tea anyways. Can plant some cover crop and water in the tea.

Worms sort of complete the circle, they do the tilling for you. So if you don't have worms, add worms.

Last thing I can think of, when adding your new layer of amendments, mix the amendments with a little fresh compost/peat/aeration.

Tricky part is figuring out what you consumed, what you need to add back. So you don't run to low on anything or you don't get to far out of balance.

Could use soil analysis to help, or you could sort of feel it out. Also can go broad spectrum and add a balanced layer.

Kelp/Alfalfa are good staples imo.

Let us know how it turns out and what you added.

Mr^^
 

dank.frank

ef.yu.se.ka.e.em
ICMag Donor
Veteran
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8361340&postcount=14

One of the things I want to share and develop within this journal is the establishment of a "drug type" cannabis specific N-P-K profile on a per acre basis.

Personally, one of the last big hurdles I see with reusing organic soil, which issues are amplified in a soil bed, is knowing how to properly re-amend the crop after each cycle to ensure a consistent flower. The general "use half original amounts" works but I don't believe it to be the best approach.

That being said, there are a couple of formulas I'm going to use along the way that are essential to this goal.

The first formula, will tell us how much of any given amendment to apply to achieve a desired nutrient level within a known planting area.

[(pounds per acre needed/square foot in an acre) x sq ft to be fertilized] / elemental percentage of fertilizer being applied

Example: A soil test says you need to apply 120 lbs per acre of P. You decide to use steamed bone meal. 2-14-0. Let's assume you have a 2' x 5' soil bed, so 10 sq ft.

[(120 lb/acre / 43,560 sq ft/acre) x 10 sq ft] / 0.14 = 0.1968 lbs of 2-14-0 steamed bone meal to provide 120 lbs of P to the 10 sq ft bed.

However, notice we also applied nitrogen in the bone meal. So that brings us to the second necessary formula, which is a simple 3 part process.

A. weight of fertilizer applied x percent of elemental nutrition
B. Square Foot per acre / square foot fertilized
C. A x B


To continue with the example above, in the process of applying the bone meal to get 120 lbs of P, we also added:

A. 0.1968 lbs bone meal x 0.02 (nitrogen) = 0.0004
B. 43,560 sq ft per acre / 10 sq ft = 4,356
C. 0.004 x 4,356 = 17.424 lbs of N applied


Using this basic approach, I am going to start with a known set of values and then test the soil bed frequently and amend accordingly until I have enough data to establish an optimum amendment process that is truly care free.

When I build the soil, I'll share all the data for the inputs and where things are starting. Let's just say I've learned a few things over the years and it's time to apply some of that knowledge.

The main goal with this project is to increase input efficiency while by default reducing input costs, without, diminishing quality. However, there is zero sense in throwing more at the soil than is necessary.

This is the same process that was used to develop the NSPB mix, except organic options and my own personal knowledge have both improved in the last decade and in some ways I view that mix as obsolete as a result. I think I can develop something more cost effective without diminishing the positive aspects that formula provided.

One of the most common questions I see on organic forums is some version of, "can I sub ____ for ____. It is generally a sourcing issue that prompts such questions.

By sharing these equations, and documenting this process, I hope to give others the tools they need to create mixes that work for them, based on what is available to them. I hope to eliminate the nagging fear of altering a recipe.


Get a soil test. Make your target N-P-K range 200-300-250.



dank.Frank
 

CrushnYuba

Well-known member
I'm not totally sure i buy into the whole no till theory or understand it. I usually only till into the top 1/3 soil, but it seems difficult to not till at all and still get good results. I was looking for a simple explanation of the benefit of No till but i couldn't find one.
It seems difficult to leave the soil in tact after removing the main stem of a well rooted plant.

Cover crops are cool, but there is only so much N you can get into the soil from cover. Legumes don't even fix N from the atmosphere unless all the soil N is exhausted. I don't think it usually is for me. I do love adding fresh organic matter and do do cover crops, but I'm not sure how much n it really adds
 

Microbeman

The Logical Gardener
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I'm not totally sure i buy into the whole no till theory or understand it. I usually only till into the top 1/3 soil, but it seems difficult to not till at all and still get good results. I was looking for a simple explanation of the benefit of No till but i couldn't find one.
It seems difficult to leave the soil in tact after removing the main stem of a well rooted plant.

Cover crops are cool, but there is only so much N you can get into the soil from cover. Legumes don't even fix N from the atmosphere unless all the soil N is exhausted. I don't think it usually is for me. I do love adding fresh organic matter and do do cover crops, but I'm not sure how much n it really adds

No-till IME does not mean adhering to a strict regimen of not disturbing the soil in the slightest bit. Of course there is often something remaining of the small root-ball left by the original transplant. (e.g. peat pellet) which we yank out. The root system, however is left to degrade. As far as working any amendments into the soil surface we restricted this to a depth of about 2 inches, excepting the hole created for the new transplant. The longest I've gone doing no-till in a bin is 7 years.

As far as legumes transference of N to surrounding non-legume plants, this occurs ongoing. I discussed this recently but cannot remember what thread so here is a link concerning this;

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/full/10.4141/cjps2012-036#.W_7aLGfQZjp
Red clover can also transfer fixed N to companion non-legumes (Ta and Faris 1987; Høgh-Jensen and Schjoerring 1994, 2000; Pirhofer-Walzl et al. 2011), which helps farmers to reduce inorganic N fertilizer applications and lessens subsequent nitrate leaching into ground water. The transfer of N is the “movement of N from a legume to another plant, either during growth of an interplant associated with a legume component or as residual N for the benefit to a succeeding plant” (San-nai and Ming-pu 2000). Below-ground N transfer can be categorized as being direct or indirect. Direct N transfer results from mycelia networks formed by arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi and directly supplies N from the donor plant to the companion plant by interconnecting the root systems of both species (Haystead et al. 1988; McNeill and Wood 1990; Dubach and Russelle 1994; He et al. 2003). Indirect N transfer occurs through the soil compartment. This takes place through the rhizodeposition of N into the soil followed by uptake by grass (Paynel et al. 2008). Proposed sources of rhizodeposition include: death and decay of nodules and roots (Ta et al. 1986; Dubach and Russelle 1994; Trannin et al. 2000; Sierra and Desfontaines 2009) and exudates from legume roots (Paynel et al. 2001, 2008; Jalonen et al. 2009a, b; Sierra and Desfontaines 2009). Among the different N compounds exuded by legume roots and nodules are ammonium, amino acids, ureides, peptides, and proteins, which have been identified in leachates of legumes (Ta et al. 1986; Wacquant et al. 1989; Paynel and Cliquet 2003; Paynel et al. 2008; Fustec et al. 2010). The most abundant amino acids found in clover root exudates are serine and glycine (Paynel and Cliquet 2003).

This does not mean I advocate the use of cover/companion plants indoors, especially not red clover which would need consistent cutting to limit height. It could be an interesting concept/project for some growers and I'd suggest a low growth clover like Alsikes. Infection of both species (cannabis & clover) with endomycorrhizal fungi would be highly recommended (essential).

Personally indoors I found it more trouble than valuable.

Outdoors, red and crimson clovers have been true saviors for our cannabis, forage (hay), corn and medicinal herb crops. Red clover has not only provided N to our Reed Canary, blue grass and Fescue but also outcompeted thistle.
 

Rodehazrd

Well-known member
I'm not totally sure i buy into the whole no till theory or understand it. I usually only till into the top 1/3 soil, but it seems difficult to not till at all and still get good results. I was looking for a simple explanation of the benefit of No till but i couldn't find one.
It seems difficult to leave the soil in tact after removing the main stem of a well rooted plant.

Cover crops are cool, but there is only so much N you can get into the soil from cover. Legumes don't even fix N from the atmosphere unless all the soil N is exhausted. I don't think it usually is for me. I do love adding fresh organic matter and do do cover crops, but I'm not sure how much n it really adds
Hello CY
From my reading on organic methods the short answer is the Soil Food Web of beneficial fungi forms pathways whereby nutrients are moved to the roots . Leaving the web intact allows the new plant to plug into the already established network faster than forming a new one of equal size.
:tiphat:
 

CrushnYuba

Well-known member
I kind of figured that out was related to fungi. Its really the only thing that tilling a little bit would disturb. I just don't understand how you could do it without disturbing the top layer a bit. I can't see things like organic n and bone meal would break down without being mixed like compost. Had to have some "browns" mixed in to really break down
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
I have had great success going half back with meal per cycle and quarter back on dusts


it is dependent on soil/plant ratio
 

MedResearcher

Member
Veteran
I have had great success going half back with meal per cycle and quarter back on dusts


it is dependent on soil/plant ratio


Handy estimate with some results to back it up. Thanks Weird.

Assuming if you were using guanos, you would lump them in with the meal measurements.


What about gypmsum/lime/oyster shell, would you lump them in with the dust measurements?

Thanks,
Mr^^
 

MedResearcher

Member
Veteran
I can't see things like organic n and bone meal would break down without being mixed like compost. Had to have some "browns" mixed in to really break down


I think mixing the top dressing with some compost is a good technique. Really mixing it with a small amount of your basic mix even. Like Peat/Compost/Lava Rock, is a good strategy. So instead of 1/4" layer of amendments, you end up with a 1-2" layer of fresh mix and amendments.

Again, I think.. *snicker* its important to layer some basic mix in there for the long term effects of compaction. I have seen no till beds that basically turned into giant worm bins, and eventually they were so thick with castings, aeration became a real concern. So by layering in some of the lighter stuff, peat/aeration hopefully you can keep it breathing for longer.

For me, no till means I try to till/disturb as least as possible. If I drastically need to mix something in though, then I will try to gently till it in. Doubt the worms enjoy the tilling as well.

Mr^^
 
No-till IME does not mean adhering to a strict regimen of not disturbing the soil in the slightest bit. Of course there is often something remaining of the small root-ball left by the original transplant. (e.g. peat pellet) which we yank out. The root system, however is left to degrade. As far as working any amendments into the soil surface we restricted this to a depth of about 2 inches, excepting the hole created for the new transplant. The longest I've gone doing no-till in a bin is 7 years.

As far as legumes transference of N to surrounding non-legume plants, this occurs ongoing. I discussed this recently but cannot remember what thread so here is a link concerning this;

https://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/full/10.4141/cjps2012-036#.W_7aLGfQZjp


This does not mean I advocate the use of cover/companion plants indoors, especially not red clover which would need consistent cutting to limit height. It could be an interesting concept/project for some growers and I'd suggest a low growth clover like Alsikes. Infection of both species (cannabis & clover) with endomycorrhizal fungi would be highly recommended (essential).

Personally indoors I found it more trouble than valuable.

Outdoors, red and crimson clovers have been true saviors for our cannabis, forage (hay), corn and medicinal herb crops. Red clover has not only provided N to our Reed Canary, blue grass and Fescue but also outcompeted thistle.




The only time I've ever found companion planting indoors to be a problem was kentucky bluegrass in a particularly slow starting batch of The One backgross phenos. The grass had to be constantly cut back for like 2 weeks until the seedlings took off enough to let the grass grow. But that gave the worms a lot of food and the hyopsis miles mites a place to chill.



Also the clover, alfalfa and buckwheat we left go all reseeded and spawned multiple generations. Also they produced pollen which sustained 3 generations of ladybugs before they dipped and sustained a population of n. fallacis until we had to move.



Companion planting is the way to go.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
Handy estimate with some results to back it up. Thanks Weird.

Assuming if you were using guanos, you would lump them in with the meal measurements.


What about gypmsum/lime/oyster shell, would you lump them in with the dust measurements?

Thanks,
Mr^^


I would count guanos as meals and gypmsum/lime/oyster shell as dusts



I also use DE and molasses as C sources as needed, my basic premise with LOS containers being it is far easier to add than to remove.
 
I'm not totally sure i buy into the whole no till theory or understand it. I usually only till into the top 1/3 soil, but it seems difficult to not till at all and still get good results. I was looking for a simple explanation of the benefit of No till but i couldn't find one.
It seems difficult to leave the soil in tact after removing the main stem of a well rooted plant.

Cover crops are cool, but there is only so much N you can get into the soil from cover. Legumes don't even fix N from the atmosphere unless all the soil N is exhausted. I don't think it usually is for me. I do love adding fresh organic matter and do do cover crops, but I'm not sure how much n it really adds


its not that the nutes that you have to worry about its the compacted soil from the regular watering.
I don't care if someones growing in a worm bin.
They can say what they want but normal sized containers should never be no till.
just saying my opinion, you only get lucky so long fighting basics
 
I have had great success going half back with meal per cycle and quarter back on dusts


it is dependent on soil/plant ratio

I think I am going to give your method a try. I like the idea of a soil test for sure, but I suspect 6 20 gallon smart bags would set me back at least $250 for university extension type tests. I think I will eventually make one large 5' x 5' raised bed and get one test.
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
This was a big topic for me for a while.


The last 2 years or so, every first round I did with a fresh soil mix yielded excellent results (only yield was lacking, quality etc. was excellent).


But whenever I went into round 2 with the same soil mix, things started to go downhill considerably.


The first time I tried my hands at it, I didn't even re-amend the soil. I just planted the next plant into it and topped it off with more of the soil mix.
Results were as expected, tiny to non-existing second round harvest.


I then mixed up a fresh batch, first round was good, second round I topdressed mainly EWC and some more soil mix.
Again, second round with the soil mix was a disaster, basically no harvest.


Took to the boards and figured out with much help that it was likely not even because of my bad topdressing/re-amending. That should have caused smaller harvests but not that terrible.
In the end, it looks like the buckwheat hulls I used instead of perlite were the culprit. Being likely treated with some anti fungicide or something as they were advertised to be used as filling for yoga pillows...






I have since mixed up a fresh batch of soil, replacing the stupid buckwheat hulls with perlite.
It is looking good so far but I can't tell a difference yet because the first round with fresh soil always looked solid, even with buckwheat hulls... But the roots do seem to develop better overall.


Anyway, after this round is harvested in a few months, will be the first time I will probably be able to go for a second round in the same soil and call it something like no-till or living soil ... Still in 5gal pots which makes these monikers questionable but at least it is an imitation of that technique I suppose..




So top-dressing/re-amending will be on my mind in a few months as well and I was going to simply mix the same amount of nutrients I normaly mix into ~70L of soil, into ~10L of soil instead.
So making a more concentrated version of my organic soil mix.
Then topdress that onto the new plants after removing the old ones.
Then I would accompany that with "microbe innoculant tea" (EWC, malted barley, molasses) in the first 2 weeks and hope that the plants have what they need to complete a flowering cycle ...






Now the amount of nutrients to re-amend would be the question...
I am basically going by feel here.
I noticed that in the past the plants were a bit hungry during mid/late flower. Some of them even completely yellowed out during mid flower during one run with fresh soil. Not sure if that was because of the buckwheat hulls or lack of nutrients.
But I keep noticing my plants yellowing from the bottom, even in the 5 gal smart pots. So my assumption was that they are always lacking nutrients.
I also noticed that my water is very hard and high in calcium etc. so I stopped adding calcium related amendments lick gypsum or dolomite lime ...


Anyway, Coots recipe (omitting calcium sources) I followed, normally would call for the following amendments to my base mix of ~~60-70L of peat, perlite, EWC:
- 2 cups of krill meal (instead of crab meal)
- 1 cup kelp meal
- 1 cup neem cake
- 1 cup epsom salt
- assorted rock dusts


Since I noticed what I considered a lack of nutrients overall, I basically doubled everything and have not noticed ill-effects so far. Only the yellowing from the bottom still happens with some plants. But I think that always happens right? Old growth being discarded/dying off ... Just the timing/amount of that happening is the question..




Anyway, since I doubled the nutrient amounts and seem to notice that the soil is quite depleted after a flowering run (just 5 gal pots remember, they are completely rooted through by early/mid flower, too), I was going to simply add to ~10L of base soil mix +~10L of EWC:
-4 cups krill meal
-2 cups kelp meal
-1 cup epsom salt (want to be careful on those)
-1 cup neem cake
- rock dusts


And then spread the ~20L of nutrient rich soil mix over all the pots after transplanting new plants into them.




And then I would just observe and hope I didn't add too much of anything and also not too little of anything ...




Any feedback welcome, otherwise I guess we will see when I try it out.
 
Thank you for your reply. I am in round two currently with my no till soil. I just swapped to flower yesterday. I am going to re-read your post a couple times.
 
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