Mad Lab
Member
lol, i think this might be the wrong thread for him... maybe he got lost.
If i can find the link to the toddler growers thread i will post it..
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
HPA Aeroponics for Commercial Production
- Thread starter Mad Lab
- Start date
lol, i think this might be the wrong thread for him... maybe he got lost.
If i can find the link to the toddler growers thread i will post it..
Using a 5 gallon bucket for HPA is asking for trouble unless your growing something like lettuce. With an 8" netpot in the bucket you would be left with less space. The nozzles should always be aimed into relatively open space, not directly at roots, netpots or other obstacles.
Mad Lab
Member
I have put 5 gallons with bottoms cut out and placed on a tot with hole on top cut out. I think i got 3 feet depth with it and it was ok but wished i didnt have such a small diameter around the rootmass(5gal).
But just a 5 gallon may not be sufficient. My roots fill a 5 gallon rather quickly and wouldnt allow for good coverage at a 1 sec feed.
But just a 5 gallon may not be sufficient. My roots fill a 5 gallon rather quickly and wouldnt allow for good coverage at a 1 sec feed.
squarepush3r
Member
Guys try this it might help with ideas and stuff, a lot of things have already been done/tried
https://www.google.com/search?q=hpa+aeroponics
https://www.google.com/search?q=hpa+aeroponics
Kiloz
Member
Not in my experience, at least not with root bundles upto 14"
Placing anything in front of a nozzle affects the volume and quality of the mist. If the mist is fully evolved it will penetrate a dense rootmass. Aiming a nozzle into a sponge and placing a sponge in a cloud of mist are entirely different.
Weed Killer
Member
The pressure relief valve position is dangerous. Located downstream of the pressure regulator it cant sense the accumulator pressure
So with all this old technology and bottom line costs to get one going is it really worth it ???
I mean really all your doing is setting your self up for a failure ,,,, with so many parts now in the system more areas of concern.
I have seen many systems but No Gains.. Is HPA better than DWC or Aeroponics or just simple Ebb and Flow as a hydroponics delivery system for water and nutrients...I am not seeing how vapor is gonna be more or less efficient at having the nutrients sitting on the outside of the root membrane (since mist condenses to liquid on the roots anyway, thereby coating them the same as if they had been dipped in water, no matter what the delivery system). Or are you saying the vapor once condensed will somehow hold more available oxygen, maybe more than the root system needs so you can supercharge the system with oxygen? but I am trying to do my due diligence and learn about the plant I love...so let me continue.
The thing is I do understand (more or less) the energy conversion system in plants and their requirements for their to be available oxygen (only possible improvement HPA has which I really don't see, hence the question) to the root system to convert that to the basic building blocks that are carried through the Xylem to the meristem and outer structures to increase leaf, stalk or bud size (specifically in cannabis). And the "energy", basic sugars are carried downward to other area's of the plant through the Phloem.
But we aren't talking about circulation, we are talking about transport and specifically through the cell membrane on the roots right?....Why does HPA provide better passive transport like diffusion or osmosis or does it somehow force the plant into more active transports like pinocytosis or phagocytosis?
BTW the bioavailability of the nutrient isn't changed by the delivery system unless you are claiming the vibrations to be ripping the salts apart, more than being suspended in water does anyway. Hydro versus Organic have different suppliers for their bioavailable nutes (ones that will pass the cell membrane on the feeder roots) but the transport through the cell wall is the same and molecule size has more to do with it for the passive transports. Now maybe more oxygen will aid in the active transport systems on the feeder roots but HPA hasn't shown me to any degree of satisfaction by either the fruits of the labor or real science, the why...why do you think HPA systems are better then any other
For Cost wise it better be ???
I mean really all your doing is setting your self up for a failure ,,,, with so many parts now in the system more areas of concern.
I have seen many systems but No Gains.. Is HPA better than DWC or Aeroponics or just simple Ebb and Flow as a hydroponics delivery system for water and nutrients...I am not seeing how vapor is gonna be more or less efficient at having the nutrients sitting on the outside of the root membrane (since mist condenses to liquid on the roots anyway, thereby coating them the same as if they had been dipped in water, no matter what the delivery system). Or are you saying the vapor once condensed will somehow hold more available oxygen, maybe more than the root system needs so you can supercharge the system with oxygen? but I am trying to do my due diligence and learn about the plant I love...so let me continue.
The thing is I do understand (more or less) the energy conversion system in plants and their requirements for their to be available oxygen (only possible improvement HPA has which I really don't see, hence the question) to the root system to convert that to the basic building blocks that are carried through the Xylem to the meristem and outer structures to increase leaf, stalk or bud size (specifically in cannabis). And the "energy", basic sugars are carried downward to other area's of the plant through the Phloem.
But we aren't talking about circulation, we are talking about transport and specifically through the cell membrane on the roots right?....Why does HPA provide better passive transport like diffusion or osmosis or does it somehow force the plant into more active transports like pinocytosis or phagocytosis?
BTW the bioavailability of the nutrient isn't changed by the delivery system unless you are claiming the vibrations to be ripping the salts apart, more than being suspended in water does anyway. Hydro versus Organic have different suppliers for their bioavailable nutes (ones that will pass the cell membrane on the feeder roots) but the transport through the cell wall is the same and molecule size has more to do with it for the passive transports. Now maybe more oxygen will aid in the active transport systems on the feeder roots but HPA hasn't shown me to any degree of satisfaction by either the fruits of the labor or real science, the why...why do you think HPA systems are better then any other
For Cost wise it better be ???
your doubts are certainly fair, as its not a well studied area.
however your questions and subsequent musings regarding the how and why is an absurd masturbatory gesture.
just read the papers published on the subject. you are pissing into the wind here asking folks who don't know shit about biology.
regarding your concerns about supposed complexity... its not merited. the system very simple, and NOT prone to failure... its more or less the same as a private well water system, with the only difference being a solenoid and misting nozzle.
however your questions and subsequent musings regarding the how and why is an absurd masturbatory gesture.
just read the papers published on the subject. you are pissing into the wind here asking folks who don't know shit about biology.
regarding your concerns about supposed complexity... its not merited. the system very simple, and NOT prone to failure... its more or less the same as a private well water system, with the only difference being a solenoid and misting nozzle.
ok here is another question being again this is old tech more or less out of date but that main answer you need to ask your self is
``1 Does it out yield other methods under current , RDWC , PPK flood and drain ????
My guess is NO cause if it did you would see every one jumping on the band wagon
2 Are they ???
3 what is the cost for a 20 site system like this is it 90 percent more then a snype DWC system
And again people can read all the shit they want Bottom line is Cost . Yield
and this is why you do not see Commercial growing like this
huge difference between growing 6 plants or growing 6000 plants
Mad Lab
Member
Dialed in, yes faster growth and bigger yields. That is science you can check on regardless of the limited research in the HPA realm.
But, where you fail in your logic is starting to evaluate HPA on a commercial level.
5% faster growth over DWC and 30-50% less resources to obtain your product is HUGE when it comes to a commercial operation.
I've said this before, your thinking small... like the little baby growers most people are. So limited to the closet or garage thinking 5% or 50% savings on cost of materials isnt much.
5% of a MASSIVE grow... do you know what this means?
It's called business. Clothing companies will go all the way across the world to make their clothes if they can save 25 cents a shirt on labor... get it now?
This is REAL business we are getting into... this thread is for hobby HPA growers but more for the interest in commercial applications... for people thinking big.
When you think big and legal, and you have money... HPA will interest you.
Do you know how many reservoirs needed to do a large scale commercial operation with DWC or others similiar? ALOT.
Do you release how much labor is associated with just changing out nasty water and replacing/cleaning equipment? thats JUST the reservoirs we are talking about.
one 100gal reservoir is enough to feed 50 4x8 trays. saving space/labor/money... what else do you want? lol
I wouldnt be wasting my time with this thread if it wasnt worth the awareness...
But most of the growers ou speak of are babies... which isnt bad... but lets talk business and science.... and most growers are nether.
But, where you fail in your logic is starting to evaluate HPA on a commercial level.
5% faster growth over DWC and 30-50% less resources to obtain your product is HUGE when it comes to a commercial operation.
I've said this before, your thinking small... like the little baby growers most people are. So limited to the closet or garage thinking 5% or 50% savings on cost of materials isnt much.
5% of a MASSIVE grow... do you know what this means?
It's called business. Clothing companies will go all the way across the world to make their clothes if they can save 25 cents a shirt on labor... get it now?
This is REAL business we are getting into... this thread is for hobby HPA growers but more for the interest in commercial applications... for people thinking big.
When you think big and legal, and you have money... HPA will interest you.
Do you know how many reservoirs needed to do a large scale commercial operation with DWC or others similiar? ALOT.
Do you release how much labor is associated with just changing out nasty water and replacing/cleaning equipment? thats JUST the reservoirs we are talking about.
one 100gal reservoir is enough to feed 50 4x8 trays. saving space/labor/money... what else do you want? lol
I wouldnt be wasting my time with this thread if it wasnt worth the awareness...
But most of the growers ou speak of are babies... which isnt bad... but lets talk business and science.... and most growers are nether.
Please show me a thread of your so called faster growth and bigger yields pretty please??? better yet since your talking about this please show us your HPA grow
i got 3 strains just sexed and back in veg once i clone them i will be more then happy to post 3 pound per plant undercurrent would love to see a 3 pound plant in this style
But we both know that is not going to happen
i got 3 strains just sexed and back in veg once i clone them i will be more then happy to post 3 pound per plant undercurrent would love to see a 3 pound plant in this style
But we both know that is not going to happen
Mad Lab
Member
Mad Lab
Member
A few articles for people who dont think they know everything and are here to learn not argue something they cant argue because they have no experience let alone GOOD experience.
http://cipotato.org/press-room/blogs/the-sustainability-of-aeroponics/
http://aerofarms.com/wordpress/wp-content/files_mf/1265411630GrowingMedicinalCropswithAeroponics.pdf
I dont think you quite understand what better osmosis and allowing for a larger rootmass does... it creates bigger better results, faster. bigger fruit. faster. get it? its called science. look up the information if your gonna be a know it all.. why should we spoonfeed someone like you?
I get it. you get great results with DWC. but i bet i can get your 3 unit results with ONE 6x6in rockwool cube with no roots allowed to shoot out. And i can do it quicker than you. in fact, i do it all the time. whats your point? you have something good goin, but your a wittle baby and say 350,000 sq foot GH or warehouse hooked up all DWC. HAHA. thats a nightmare. you think you can keep out your cyanobacteria on a small level using EWC tea or H2o2/sm-90, sure... but i want to eliminate the risk altogether on a big scale.
So when you see an HPA plant grow faster next to your DWC... what would that tell you? try it, then talk shit. but you are nothing to anyone in this thread with your 3lb DWC setup.. what a joke.
with the same veg time and plant size starting, HPA done right will do better than your DWC... show me the science that would imply otherwise. if not, go down the street where the wittle babies are hanging out.
keep buying your hydroton and rockwool, keep cleaning your nasty recirculating reservoirs, keep spending more money on nutrients, keep growing your plants a little slower... but if it aint broke, dont fix it right? wrong, people like you will always be steps behind everyone else because of your mindset. But hey, we will do it for you and when its perfect and EVERYONE is doing it, you can join in.
wait, no argument for saving so much money on a large scale? didnt think so mister math.
http://cipotato.org/press-room/blogs/the-sustainability-of-aeroponics/
http://aerofarms.com/wordpress/wp-content/files_mf/1265411630GrowingMedicinalCropswithAeroponics.pdf
I dont think you quite understand what better osmosis and allowing for a larger rootmass does... it creates bigger better results, faster. bigger fruit. faster. get it? its called science. look up the information if your gonna be a know it all.. why should we spoonfeed someone like you?
I get it. you get great results with DWC. but i bet i can get your 3 unit results with ONE 6x6in rockwool cube with no roots allowed to shoot out. And i can do it quicker than you. in fact, i do it all the time. whats your point? you have something good goin, but your a wittle baby and say 350,000 sq foot GH or warehouse hooked up all DWC. HAHA. thats a nightmare. you think you can keep out your cyanobacteria on a small level using EWC tea or H2o2/sm-90, sure... but i want to eliminate the risk altogether on a big scale.
So when you see an HPA plant grow faster next to your DWC... what would that tell you? try it, then talk shit. but you are nothing to anyone in this thread with your 3lb DWC setup.. what a joke.
with the same veg time and plant size starting, HPA done right will do better than your DWC... show me the science that would imply otherwise. if not, go down the street where the wittle babies are hanging out.
keep buying your hydroton and rockwool, keep cleaning your nasty recirculating reservoirs, keep spending more money on nutrients, keep growing your plants a little slower... but if it aint broke, dont fix it right? wrong, people like you will always be steps behind everyone else because of your mindset. But hey, we will do it for you and when its perfect and EVERYONE is doing it, you can join in.
wait, no argument for saving so much money on a large scale? didnt think so mister math.
1. if it does IMO its a marginal gain. i certainly dont buy that its 30% or what ever better, ive been wrong about tons of shit though.
2. people jump onto what ever stupid as fuck band wagon they want to, regardless of whether or not this wagon benefits them. organic food comes to mind.
but just because its not been adopted does not necessarily mean that it does not merit investment. with that said i do agree with you in that, if HPA were as productive as people have claimed, it would be in much wider use.
3. Its funny that you are so concerned about the costs of HPA, when your Undercurrent system easily costs far more. undercurrent systems cost a heinous and criminal amount. ( you know that you can buy those 17 gallon qorpak buckets for like 11 bucks? ) Were they not solely for use cultivating cannabis; a crop absurdly over valued, they would be entirely out of business.
A proper HP aero system would scale far far better than something like an undercurrent system, what with the cost of adding additional plants being just emitters, tubing and solenoids.
fertigation systems scale even better, with additional units requiring only 20 cent spray stakes, and additional media and containers.
the problem with the systems you mention, save for flood tables is that they require relatively high inputs of electricity. RDWC requires both air compressors, and pumps continuously.
adding additional sites scales this electrical input linearly, where as in systems such as fertilization, adding additional sites simply pushed up the duty cycle and number of solenoids untill such a time that it is exceeded,and a larger capacity pump is required.
a 5gpm diaphragm pump could probably feed 100 plants very easily. beyond that, one will require something like a high flow procon pump.... about 500 bucks brand new.
wtf is a PPK system btw?
