How and why to pour vs. scrape?

BakedBandit · Nov 6, 2016

I'm curious on the exact procedure you use if you like to pour out your product at the end or if you are a scraper. Seems most people like to pour, is it just because it's easier, or better, or...?
When do you stop recovering if you like to pour, and then what do you do after you stop recovering exactly? Pour out into thin layer, let evaporate, then into the oven?
Thanks for the input. I read about people pouring all the time but have never seen it. Maybe I need to search for some videos or something. I have always recovered as far as the pump and time will allow and then scraped product out and then into the oven.

Pure777Extracts · Nov 6, 2016

Pour = Shatter, Scrape = Sugar for the most part. Pouring out reduces the agitation. You must extract enough to pour (12" collection pot min 100g). Recover until the pressure is pretty stable at 0 and pour. Depending on your collection pot, about 7-28g will be left on the bottom/wall. MAKE SURE IT IS IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA AND DO NOT POUR ON PARCHMENT even tho most do...

montroller · Nov 6, 2016

speaking of not pouring on parchment... Who has the link for good PTFE sheets, bonus points if they fit the 1.9 ovens perfectly :biggrin:

SkyHighLer · Nov 6, 2016

I tried pouring my Mason jar soak directly to a parchment paper 'boat' a couple of days ago, what you guys call a shoot to parchment... sucked, even with my frozen candy maker's marble block I couldn't get it to move, just wanted to scrape it with a single edge razor blade and couldn't, ended up using a dabber to move it into a pile to vac... never again.

EastCoast710 · Nov 6, 2016

that's weird . I find wax is made with more vac and temp.. more agitation by folding the oil onto itself and tossing back in with full vac..

shatter.. stay low temps..

but I never heard that if u scrape or pour ? that it could leed to a diff consistency.. hmm

Gray Wolf · Nov 6, 2016

BakedBandit said:
I'm curious on the exact procedure you use if you like to pour out your product at the end or if you are a scraper. Seems most people like to pour, is it just because it's easier, or better, or...?
When do you stop recovering if you like to pour, and then what do you do after you stop recovering exactly? Pour out into thin layer, let evaporate, then into the oven?
Thanks for the input. I read about people pouring all the time but have never seen it. Maybe I need to search for some videos or something. I have always recovered as far as the pump and time will allow and then scraped product out and then into the oven.

I prefer neither process, but in general the more you stir and handle the extract, the more likely it is to nucleate, because every time you do so, you break up the existing points of nucleation, to form multiple points of nucleation.

I typically expand the concentrate into cotton candy foam, break it up into a powder, and spread thinly before adding heat and once it is molten, vacuum.

It will typically come out brittle to pull and snap shatter, and if I want to turn it to wax instead, I stir it when I pull it to flip.

One problem that I see for processes calling for a pour, is that it exposes the operator to flammable conditions, so NIOSH and OSHA will take a dim view of it once a facility is licensed and hiring operators.

When making cotton candy or just oil, and back filling with N2, the process is intrinsically safe, because fuel, oxygen, and ignition sources are kept away from one another.

Perhaps a pour could be done in an inert atmosphere chamber?

Pure777Extracts · Nov 6, 2016

montroller said:
speaking of not pouring on parchment... Who has the link for good PTFE sheets, bonus points if they fit the 1.9 ovens perfectly

I order from amazon, they have different thickness and lengths.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U34VQW4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This is what Im using but next time I will order a little thinner, but this is pretty durable and they have have made it through many extractions.

corky1968 · Nov 6, 2016

montroller said:
speaking of not pouring on parchment... Who has the link for good PTFE sheets, bonus points if they fit the 1.9 ovens perfectly

Use pyrex glass cookware.

Easy to clean, can take oven temps and should last a lifetime until you drop it on a hard surface.

Like this.

1.0L_Square_Borosilicate_Pyrex_Glass_Baking_Dish.jpg

SkyHighLer · Nov 6, 2016

I'm probably the only one that extracts on a grounded, anti-static mat... from the ASTM committee that wrote ASTM D2158, the long standing non-volatile residue test standard:

"1.6 This standard does not purport to address all of the safety concerns, if any, associated with its use. It is the responsibility of the user of this standard to establish appropriate safety and health practices and determine the applicability of regulatory limitations prior to use."

"9. Hazards

9.1 Note that there is a significant fire hazard from LPG vapors, and since the boiling point of LPG can be as low as −41°C, there is a risk of freezing “burns.” Take appropriate safety precautions to prevent ignition or fire, and wear suitable protective equipment to protect against skin contact with liquid or vaporizing LPG.

9.2 Operators should wear a grounded antistatic wrist strap. The use of an antistatic floor mat and grounding the sample cylinder are also advised."

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7682482&postcount=664

They don't even mention ventilation, these are professionals, advising other professionals on how to do a dirty deed. :biggrin:

gumby420 · Nov 7, 2016

montroller said:
speaking of not pouring on parchment... Who has the link for good PTFE sheets, bonus points if they fit the 1.9 ovens perfectly

teffies from bizzeebee
http://mobiusmerch.bigcartel.com/products

topset1976 · Nov 8, 2016

i like this stuff

it has parchment on one side and foil on the other and is tear resistant. You can easily fold up the sides and make a nice square with sides so it won't run over in your vac oven. The sides hold up by themselves by just folding. It also helps with heat distribution because of the foil on one side. I wouldn't recommend open blasting on parchment but is there any problem with pouring from a cls after its been in warm bath to 80 degrees still have any danger if poured on parchment and then fully purged in oven?

SkyHighLer · Nov 8, 2016

topset1976 said:
i like this stuff
View Image View Image

it has parchment on one side and foil on the other and is tear resistant. You can easily fold up the sides and make a nice square with sides so it won't run over in your vac oven. The sides hold up by themselves by just folding. It also helps with heat distribution because of the foil on one side. I wouldn't recommend open blasting on parchment but is there any problem with pouring from a cls after its been in warm bath to 80 degrees still have any danger if poured on parchment and then fully purged in oven?

SkyHighLer said:
I tried pouring my Mason jar soak directly to a parchment paper 'boat' a couple of days ago, what you guys call a shoot to parchment... sucked, even with my frozen candy maker's marble block I couldn't get it to move, just wanted to scrape it with a single edge razor blade and couldn't, ended up using a dabber to move it into a pile to vac... never again.

And that's another thing, when boiled off in a parchment square with sides, some of the oil accumulated in and out the top of the folded corners even though they were higher than the solvent/oil level.

The outside of the parchment also condensed moisture, it was just one big mess for me.

Pure777Extracts · Nov 9, 2016

SkyHighLer said:
I'm probably the only one that extracts on a grounded, anti-static mat... from the ASTM committee that wrote ASTM D2158, the long standing non-volatile residue test standard:

I use to, I had one from when I worked on laptops, after a year it looked like shit and started to rust and just kinda forgot about it.. ordering a new one now lol

SkyHighLer · Nov 9, 2016

Pure777Extracts said:
I use to, I had one from when I worked on laptops, after a year it looked like shit and started to rust and just kinda forgot about it.. ordering a new one now lol

Mine's holding up fine, resists solvent spills just fine. I spent the money on a thick, as I recall three layer ESD mat, provides a nice cushion in case you drop something.

BakedBandit · Nov 10, 2016

So I guess there is no consensus on how or what to pour on/into?
I may just keep scraping, but I think I want to try a pour out run. Maybe I'll just use a Pyrex and see how it goes. Thanks all for the replies.

BakedBandit · Nov 10, 2016

Gray Wolf said:
I prefer neither process, but in general the more you stir and handle the extract, the more likely it is to nucleate, because every time you do so, you break up the existing points of nucleation, to form multiple points of nucleation.

I typically expand the concentrate into cotton candy foam, break it up into a powder, and spread thinly before adding heat and once it is molten, vacuum.

It will typically come out brittle to pull and snap shatter, and if I want to turn it to wax instead, I stir it when I pull it to flip.

One problem that I see for processes calling for a pour, is that it exposes the operator to flammable conditions, so NIOSH and OSHA will take a dim view of it once a facility is licensed and hiring operators.

When making cotton candy or just oil, and back filling with N2, the process is intrinsically safe, because fuel, oxygen, and ignition sources are kept away from one another.

Perhaps a pour could be done in an inert atmosphere chamber?

As always, thanks for you sharing of knowledge and contributions to the forum! How do you expand the concentrate to a cotton candy foam?

topset1976 · Nov 13, 2016

BakedBandit said:
I'm curious on the exact procedure you use if you like to pour out your product at the end or if you are a scraper. Seems most people like to pour, is it just because it's easier, or better, or...?
When do you stop recovering if you like to pour, and then what do you do after you stop recovering exactly? Pour out into thin layer, let evaporate, then into the oven?
Thanks for the input. I read about people pouring all the time but have never seen it. Maybe I need to search for some videos or something. I have always recovered as far as the pump and time will allow and then scraped product out and then into the oven.

I think it would be very difficult to pour out of a big collection pot without having a splatter platter. I have a 10x10" pot but also have a splatter platter which only has about a 3" lip on it so if you are pouring up to 120g it works great. i just scrap out the last bit and put that on a separate sheet in the oven. the scrapped last bit usually shatters but the part that i really need to scrap out like the stuff on the sides will go crumble 40% of the time. everything i pour turns rock hard stable shatter ever time at 92 degrees in vac oven flipping each side twice over ~36 hours. i also have used a oil slick pad that has edges on it. it is a 8"x8" square with a 2" lip. Looks like a square bowl kind of. I pour in there and straight into the oven. I can flip it easy. i'll try to find a pic. its like baking a cake.

Gray Wolf · Nov 13, 2016

BakedBandit said:
As always, thanks for you sharing of knowledge and contributions to the forum! How do you expand the concentrate to a cotton candy foam?

When the visible LPG puddle is gone and only random bubbles appear, we turn on the high vacuum pump, which expands the remaining mixture into foam.

blastfrompast · Nov 14, 2016

Graywolf...you pull the vac cold and inject N2 tho also don't you..

I understand the N2 is to keep o2 out of the collection pot so there isn't a chance of combustion when you open it up, but could you achieve the same "foam" without the N2, perhaps using a venturi for your vac (vented in a safe location)....

Gray Wolf · Nov 15, 2016

blastfrompast said:
Graywolf...you pull the vac cold and inject N2 tho also don't you..

I understand the N2 is to keep o2 out of the collection pot so there isn't a chance of combustion when you open it up, but could you achieve the same "foam" without the N2, perhaps using a venturi for your vac (vented in a safe location)....

It works just fine without N2. Atmosphere is 78% N2, and all pure N2 does is exclude the 21% O2.

Check out Vaccon venturi vacuums. That's what we used on the WW Terpenators and vented the discharge to the booth exhaust plenum.

Air hogs, but zero moving parts and NEMA 7, Class I, Div I.

How and why to pour vs. scrape?

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