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MJ Legalization? A White House Rebuttal, Finally

vta

Active member
Veteran
By The Monitor's Editorial Board
Source: Christian Science Monitor

cannabis Washington, D.C. -- The Obama White House has finally laid out its most thorough, reasoned rebuttal to arguments for marijuana legalization – countering a campaign that is gaining alarming momentum at the state level.

The president’s tough position was delivered in early March by his “drug czar,” Gil Kerlikowske, in a private talk before police chiefs in California – which is ground zero for this debate.

“Marijuana legalization – for any purpose – is a nonstarter in the Obama administration,” said Mr. Kerlikowske, a former police chief himself.

It’s almost certain that California voters will be asked in a November ballot initiative whether to allow local governments to regulate and tax marijuana (similar to taxes on sales of alcohol). Other states are considering similar proposals, which are really a backdoor way to legalize pot.

Thirteen states have decriminalized the use or possession of small amounts of marijuana, which is not the same as legalizing it. Selling it is still illegal except in states where it is used for medical purposes. And under federal law, any sort of marijuana use or sale is a criminal offense.

The drug czar’s remarks are worth notice for two reasons. First, they provide needed talking points for those who oppose legalization but who can’t seem to make their message resonate in the face of a well-financed, well-organized pro-marijuana effort. Second, they help clear up confusion about the White House policy on legalization.

When Attorney General Eric Holder announced last year that US law enforcement officials would neither raid nor prosecute medical marijuana dispensaries or those using them, states got mixed signals. Mr. Holder explained it as a matter of the best use of scarce federal law enforcement resources, which he didn’t want to expend in the now 14 states that have approved some use of medical marijuana.

But “a lot of people believe the administration is somewhat in favor of the decriminalization of marijuana,” says Scott Kirkland, police chief for El Cerrito, in the San Francisco Bay area. In California, the public, city council members, city managers, even police chiefs have “misinterpreted” the administration’s position, says Mr. Kirkland, the spokesman for marijuana issues for the California Police Chiefs Association.

The drug czar couldn’t have been more plain. On medical marijuana, which has strong public backing in opinion polls, the former Seattle police chief said that “science should determine what a medicine is, not popular vote.” As Kerlikowske pointed out, marijuana is harmful – and he has the studies to back it up.

Legalization supporters argue that no one has ever died from an overdose of this “soft” drug. But here’s what “science” has found so far: Smoking marijuana can result in dependence on the drug.

More than 30 percent of people who are 18 and over and who used marijuana in the past year are either dependent on the drug or abuse it – that is, they use it repeatedly under hazardous conditions or are imparied when they’re supposed to be interacting with others, such as at work. This is according to a 2004 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Pot is also associated with poor motor skills, cognitive impairment (i.e., affecting the ability to think, reason, and process information), and respiratory and mental illness.

The recent “Pentagon shooter,” John Patrick Bedell, was a heavy marijuana user. The disturbed young man’s psychiatrist told the Associated Press that marijuana made the symptoms of his mental illness more pronounced. Mr. Bedell’s brother, Jeffrey, told The Washington Post that marijuana made his brother’s thinking “more disordered” and that he had implored him to stop smoking pot, to no avail.

Kerlikowske also effectively knocked down the argument that regulating and taxing marijuana is a great way for states to make money in these deficit-dreary times. Indeed, NORML, the lead group in the legalization movement, is set to launch a digital ad campaign in Manhattan’s Times Square next week: “Money CAN grow on trees!”

It’s a claim that’s too good to be true, just as the exclamation point implies. Look at the nation’s experience with regulated alcohol. America collects nearly $15 billion a year in federal and state taxes from alcohol. But Kerlikowske says that covers less than 10 percent of the “social costs” related to healthcare, lost productivity, and law enforcement. And what about lost lives? Let’s not add marijuana to the mix of regulated substances.

“The costs of legalizing marijuana would outweigh any possible tax that could be levied,” Kerlikowske explains. In the United States, illegal drugs already cost an estimated $180 billion annually in social costs, according to the Office of National Drug Control Policy. That number would increase as marijuana became more widely and easily available.

The Dutch – so often praised by marijuana advocates – have had to greatly ratchet back the number of legal marijuana outlets because of crime, nuisance, and increased pot usage among youth. Los Angeles, too, now sees the need to scale back the number of private dispensaries of medical marijuana. Many California towns have looked at L.A. and are saying “no” to dispensaries.

The California Board of Equalization, which administers the state’s sales tax, estimates $1.4 billion of potential revenue from a marijuana tax. Found money? Its reasoning is based on either “a series of assumptions that are in some instances subject to tremendous uncertainty or in other cases not valid,” according to an independent study by the RAND Corporation.

What’s too bad about the drug czar’s speech is that it was made behind closed doors at a venue not accessible to the press, then quietly put on the administration’s website. Given the confusion over the message, the White House needs to be far more outspoken about this.

President Obama himself needs to get more involved than simply letting his drug czar reveal this critical stance below the radar. As a high-profile parent, he can help other parents who are struggling to prevent their children from going down the rabbit hole of drug use. If one message can resonate in this debate, it’s that America’s young people are most vulnerable to the threat of legalization.

They are particularly sensitive to the price of pot (and prices will come down if pot is legalized). They’re the most influenced by societal norms (and public approval is growing). And they’re the ones most heavily engaged in studying and learning – a process that pot smoking can impair.

Individuals who reach age 21 without using drugs are almost certain to never use them. But according to a study by a leading source on young people and drugs, Monitoring the Future, marijuana use among teens has increased in recent years, after a decade of decline. Teens perceive less risk in use – not surprising when states approve of it as medicine. Risk perception greatly influences drug use among young people.

The risks of marijuana – and the wisdom of knowing that joy and satisfaction are not found in a drug – are lessons that Mr. Obama could effectively teach the nation. But even so, it can’t stop there.

The momentum, for now, is with those who want to legalize marijuana. They have been generously financed by a few billionaires, including George Soros, and make strategic use of the Internet and media.

It will take clear-thinking parents, teachers, local officials, faith leaders, and law enforcement officers to convincingly articulate why the march to legalization must be stopped. They can, if they use the kinds of reasonable and fact-based arguments that the nation’s drug czar has just laid out.
 

Hash Zeppelin

Ski Bum Rodeo Clown
Premium user
ICMag Donor
Veteran
ITS TIME TO PUSH BACK!!!!!!!!! lets all send letters saying we dont give 2 shits what you think anymore, and you better legalize for the purpose of my personal freedom, or its your ass! It is not your choice what I put in my body, and if you think it is, then go fuck yourself. It's my body, I do what I want. That is the bottom line, and there is no argument against it. If you want your administration to stay in office you better fucking listen, or you get voted out.
 
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sunwukong

Member
A non starter issue huh? When the hell did our politicians begin to tell us what we can and can't have here in America? Someone really needs to get a bull horn, tie these idiots up and scream "of, by and for the people!" into their ears until they go deaf. Maybe then they will realize that at the end of the day, when the shit goes down, its going to be the people making decisions here in this country.
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran
They act as if cannabis were legalized the sky would fall, we would all became drugged lunatics, chaos would ensue and millions of people would die and murder each other...

If they care so much about my health, then why not forcing some fucking standards in the food. Making companies comply to meet regulations that apply to our health and not their profit margins.

How about criminalizing ciggarettes and alcohol? Both of which are far more poisonious than even the worst unflushed pesticide filled cannabis.

Im so sick to fucking death of all these double standards in america...

Cannabis is at its highest use and acceptance rate ever and there has still yet to be a single death attributed to its use........



...and what is with all this talk with cannabis legalization like were some huge secret organization with trillions of dollars who live in skull shaped volcano on our hidden private island?

God damn that is the most biased dribble ive heard since glenn beck....

EDIT:: Oh now I see, it is an article from the "CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR".

I have no problem with anyones religon, but dont let YOUR RELIGION influences MY LIFE.
 
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barletta

Bandaid
Veteran
a well-financed, well-organized pro-marijuana effort
NEVER thought that we'd be referred to this way :D And that's according to the opposition!!!
It will take clear-thinking parents, teachers, local officials, faith leaders, and law enforcement officers to convincingly articulate why the march to legalization must be stopped.
Mexican Supermen, jump outta buildings, ax murderers, causes psychisos, makes you want to do dope/coke/meth, funds terrorists, destroys the environment...

Lol, I'm ALL for hearing the 'convincingly articulate' arguments. How bout it? Lemmie know when you get one. Oh, and maintaining/expanding the prison population is not a convincing argument (it's the best one that I can come up with).
 

pearlemae

May your race always be in your favor
Veteran
Non starter? Guess I'll be registering my non starter, when it's time to vote them out. Obama has been a great disappointment, seems like its just Bush light,only lacking cojones o get the job done. So far all the campaign promises to get him elected went out the door. Rahm Emanuel said all liberals are effing retards! thats a slam to those who voted for"the man that does nothing". VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!!!! get rid of those that don't do the will of the people.IE: most all of the congress and senate need to go. from the party of no tto the party of gee' if we do that the repressives will get mad at us an call us names.VOTEVOTEVOTEVOTE. its the only way to effect real change. :smoweed:Smoke dope its the only hope for the world situation.
 

FreeMan

Member
It looks like the Government are just setting up the smash & grab. Legalizing on a state level to encourage more open growing means they have a lot more potential marks to rip-off. They must be saving a lot of overhead costs for the lack of investigation they would have to do to find big bounties.

I love Hash Zeppelin's approach on this one... stop begging for your rights and claim them!
 

Preacher

Member
All too easy. Refuted respectively by paragraph.
The drug czar couldn’t have been more plain. On medical marijuana, which has strong public backing in opinion polls, the former Seattle police chief said that “science should determine what a medicine is, not popular vote.” As Kerlikowske pointed out, marijuana is harmful – and he has the studies to back it up.

Legalization supporters argue that no one has ever died from an overdose of this “soft” drug. But here’s what “science” has found so far: Smoking marijuana can result in dependence on the drug.

More than 30 percent of people who are 18 and over and who used marijuana in the past year are either dependent on the drug or abuse it – that is, they use it repeatedly under hazardous conditions or are imparied when they’re supposed to be interacting with others, such as at work. This is according to a 2004 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Pot is also associated with poor motor skills, cognitive impairment (i.e., affecting the ability to think, reason, and process information), and respiratory and mental illness.

“The costs of legalizing marijuana would outweigh any possible tax that could be levied,” Kerlikowske explains. In the United States, illegal drugs already cost an estimated $180 billion annually in social costs, according to the Office of National Drug Control Policy. That number would increase as marijuana became more widely and easily available.

The Dutch – so often praised by marijuana advocates – have had to greatly ratchet back the number of legal marijuana outlets because of crime, nuisance, and increased pot usage among youth. Los Angeles, too, now sees the need to scale back the number of private dispensaries of medical marijuana. Many California towns have looked at L.A. and are saying “no” to dispensaries.

The California Board of Equalization, which administers the state’s sales tax, estimates $1.4 billion of potential revenue from a marijuana tax. Found money? Its reasoning is based on either “a series of assumptions that are in some instances subject to tremendous uncertainty or in other cases not valid,” according to an independent study by the RAND Corporation.

Individuals who reach age 21 without using drugs are almost certain to never use them. But according to a study by a leading source on young people and drugs, Monitoring the Future, marijuana use among teens has increased in recent years, after a decade of decline. Teens perceive less risk in use – not surprising when states approve of it as medicine. Risk perception greatly influences drug use among young people.

It will take clear-thinking parents, teachers, local officials, faith leaders, and law enforcement officers to convincingly articulate why the march to legalization must be stopped. They can, if they use the kinds of reasonable and fact-based arguments that the nation’s drug czar has just laid out.
Granny Storm Crow's list. Duh. Also cannabis is the only drug that has to be gotten from the feds for research purposes, and said research has to be approved by an organization that's explicitly said their only interest with drugs is showing how bad they are.

Consuming ANY drug can result in dependence because that's in the very bleeding nature of the meaning of the term! That's not an argument, that's stating an empty fact.

That's better. Considering dependence is the APA's thing I wonder why they didn't go for it. I'll have to see this study- my first impression is how can that thirty percent thing possibly be true when being high on the job can get someone fired both for a failed drug test AND fucking up on the job? That'd basically explain the ENTIRE unemployment rate right now and we would've fuckin' heard about it on the news sooner if that were the case.

Prescriptions have disclaimers about motor skills already, of course, and bullshit.

Hm it's a damn shame that we don't already have a study outlining precisely what the annual negative monetary cost of weed and a lot of other drugs is to the user and the cause. Wait, not only does such a study exist but it says weed costs twenty bux a year per person in bad effects then goes on to say 94 percent of THAT cost is caused by law enforcement? Huh.

How's Portugal doing?

So... the government's arguing against itself here. Nice.

First off: Monitoring the Future is brought to you by NIDA. The aforementioned guys who will only approve studies about weed that are likely to point to Bad Things (and they've been sorely disappointed in the past). Second, drug USE is on the rise because it's perceived as safe. If it weren't safe they might have been able to say it's drug abuse on the rise. Their explanation is also nicely killed by the fact that in all but one of the MMJ states, overall use went down after it went medical.

Yeah, that was an awesome case all right. Here's what you missed.
Industrial hemp, tax that bitches
Marinol
Seriously, Marinol is a can of worms if you look into it
Portugal
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
CATO's raid map of people killed in no-knock raids over drugs they don't even have
The entire history of weed prohibiton
Scientific evidence proving weed's safer than tobacco
Scientific evidence proving weed's social costs are 94 percent caused by it being illegal (that bears repeating)
Asset forfeiture laws
Normative ethics
Recidivism in prison vs. rehab

Good fucking luck changing my mind with reason and facts when they're so overwhelmingly on my side.
 

pearlemae

May your race always be in your favor
Veteran
Good Post Preacher, Law enforcement against prohibition, has Norm Stamper former Seattle Police Chief, he says leagalize Cannabis while Kerlikowke also Seattle Police Chief is leading the drug war against. I bet the people of Seattle were happy to get rid of him. Again VOTE VOTE VOTE its seems to be the way to get things done one state at a time.
 

Totah Sam

Member
in the face of a well-financed, well-organized pro-marijuana effort.


Pot is associated with poor motor skills, cognitive impairment (i.e., affecting the ability to think, reason, and process information), and respiratory and mental illness.

A well organized, well financed effort by people with poor motor skills, lack of reason, the inability to think and impaired cognitive skills. Not to mention we run out of breath and are crazy.

I love how they contradict themselves in their little propaganda campaign of lies.
 
T

texsativa

50 or so years ago, black people did not have rights. A little bit further back, women didn't either....Not the most brilliant political decisons.

Times are a changing folks. It is clear as day.

On medical marijuana, which has strong public backing in opinion polls, the former Seattle police chief said that “science should determine what a medicine is, not popular vote.” As Kerlikowske pointed out, marijuana is harmful – and he has the studies to back it up.

Legalization supporters argue that no one has ever died from an overdose of this “soft” drug. But here’s what “science” has found so far: Smoking marijuana can result in dependence on the drug.

Marijuana is a plant, it is not a drug. THC is a drug.

More than 30 percent of people who are 18 and over and who used marijuana in the past year are either dependent on the drug or abuse it – that is, they use it repeatedly under hazardous conditions or are imparied when they’re supposed to be interacting with others, such as at work. This is according to a 2004 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

AMA:

(1) Our AMA calls for further adequate and well-controlled studies of marijuana and related cannabinoids in
patients who have serious conditions for which preclinical, anecdotal, or controlled evidence suggests possible
efficacy and the application of such results to the understanding and treatment of disease.

(2)Our AMA urges that marijuana’s status as a federal Schedule I controlled substance be reviewed with the goal
of facilitating the conduct of clinical research and development of cannabinoid-based medicines, and alternate
delivery methods. This should not be viewed as an endorsement of state-based medical cannabis programs, the
legalization of marijuana, or that scientific evidence on the therapeutic use of cannabis meets the current
standards for a prescription drug product.

(3) Our AMA urges the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to implement administrative procedures to facilitate
grant applications and the conduct of well-designed clinical research into the medical utility of marijuana. This
effort should include: a) disseminating specific information for researchers on the development of safeguards
for marijuana clinical research protocols and the development of a model informed consent on marijuana for
institutional review board evaluation; b) sufficient funding to support such clinical research and access for
qualified investigators to adequate supplies of marijuana for clinical research purposes; c) confirming that
marijuana of various and consistent strengths and/or placebo will be supplied by the National Institute on Drug
Abuse to investigators registered with the Drug Enforcement Agency who are conducting bona fide clinical
research studies that receive Food and Drug Administration approval, regardless of whether or not the NIH is
the primary source of grant support.

(4) Our AMA believes that effective patient care requires the free and unfettered exchange of information on
treatment alternatives and that discussion of these alternatives between physicians and patients should not
subject either party to criminal sanctions.


The recent “Pentagon shooter,” John Patrick Bedell, was a heavy marijuana user. The disturbed young man’s psychiatrist told the Associated Press that marijuana made the symptoms of his mental illness more pronounced. Mr. Bedell’s brother, Jeffrey, told The Washington Post that marijuana made his brother’s thinking “more disordered” and that he had implored him to stop smoking pot, to no avail.

When you take away his medicine, marijuana, his baseline mental disorder worsens.

also effectively knocked down the argument that regulating and taxing marijuana is a great way for states to make money in these deficit-dreary times. Indeed, NORML, the lead group in the legalization movement, is set to launch a digital ad campaign in Manhattan’s Times Square next week: “Money CAN grow on trees!”

It’s a claim that’s too good to be true, just as the exclamation point implies. Look at the nation’s experience with regulated alcohol. America collects nearly $15 billion a year in federal and state taxes from alcohol. But Kerlikowske says that covers less than 10 percent of the “social costs” related to healthcare, lost productivity, and law enforcement. And what about lost lives? Let’s not add marijuana to the mix of regulated substances.

“The costs of legalizing marijuana would outweigh any possible tax that could be levied,” Kerlikowske explains. In the United States, illegal drugs already cost an estimated $180 billion annually in social costs, according to the Office of National Drug Control Policy. That number would increase as marijuana became more widely and easily available.

The adverse events related to alcohol can not be extrapolated to marijuana as they are two different substances with differing pharmacology.

Dutch – so often praised by marijuana advocates – have had to greatly ratchet back the number of legal marijuana outlets because of crime, nuisance, and increased pot usage among youth. Los Angeles, too, now sees the need to scale back the number of private dispensaries of medical marijuana. Many California towns have looked at L.A. and are saying “no” to dispensaries.

The percentage of Dutch people using marijuana is less than that of the USA, not more. That is interesting. How can that be when it is semi-legalized in the Netherlands? The crime rates are far lower in the Netherlands compared to the USA, too (Nat ion mas ter. com)

The California Board of Equalization, which administers the state’s sales tax, estimates $1.4 billion of potential revenue from a marijuana tax. Found money? Its reasoning is based on either “a series of assumptions that are in some instances subject to tremendous uncertainty or in other cases not valid,” according to an independent study by the RAND Corporation.

What’s too bad about the drug czar’s speech is that it was made behind closed doors at a venue not accessible to the press, then quietly put on the administration’s website. Given the confusion over the message, the White House needs to be far more outspoken about this.

President Obama himself needs to get more involved than simply letting his drug czar reveal this critical stance below the radar. As a high-profile parent, he can help other parents who are struggling to prevent their children from going down the rabbit hole of drug use. If one message can resonate in this debate, it’s that America’s young people are most vulnerable to the threat of legalization.

They are particularly sensitive to the price of pot (and prices will come down if pot is legalized). They’re the most influenced by societal norms (and public approval is growing). And they’re the ones most heavily engaged in studying and learning – a process that pot smoking can impair.

Individuals who reach age 21 without using drugs are almost certain to never use them.

Could it be those people not using have no medical benefit to use? Humm.... Take a second and think about it.

according to a study by a leading source on young people and drugs, Monitoring the Future, marijuana use among teens has increased in recent years, after a decade of decline. Teens perceive less risk in use – not surprising when states approve of it as medicine. Risk perception greatly influences drug use among young people.

The risks of marijuana – and the wisdom of knowing that joy and satisfaction are not found in a drug – are lessons that Mr. Obama could effectively teach the nation. But even so, it can’t stop there.

The momentum, for now, is with those who want to legalize marijuana. They have been generously financed by a few billionaires, including George Soros, and make strategic use of the Internet and media.

It will take clear-thinking parents, teachers, local officials, faith leaders, and law enforcement officers to convincingly articulate why the march to legalization must be stopped. They can, if they use the kinds of reasonable and fact-based arguments that the nation’s drug czar has just laid out.

Let us also not forget, it is not what enters man that makes him unclean, it is what comes out.
 
B

Blue Dot

The drug czar couldn’t have been more plain. On medical marijuana, which has strong public backing in opinion polls, the former Seattle police chief said that “science should determine what a medicine is, not popular vote.” As Kerlikowske pointed out, marijuana is harmful – and he has the studies to back it up.

The TEN year study by UCSD refutes that and I'll believe a well respected science institute over a LEO any day of the week.

I really hate it when LEO and "faith leaders" PLAY doctor.
 

xfargox

Member
I don't know how he can attempt to form a positive relationship between legalization of marijuana and crime...

Keeping marijuana illegal is what is perpetuating crime.

The reason all these places are shutting down dispensaries/coffee shops is because they want to protect their image. The Dutch didn't want to be seen as a drug tourism state or w/e.

What bugs me the most, however, is that all of this is backwards-rationalization.

Marijuana is a Schedule I drug according to the government. However, marijuana meets neither criterion for being in that grouping. It clearly has medical value ('medical marijuana') and it is not nearly as addictive as many of the drugs in schedule i (unless you include peyote or LSD...but neither of those belong in sched i either). Marijuana possesses a risk of psychological addiction probably closest to drugs in the sched iii or iv grouping.

I would like to see this drug czar try to defend the scheduling of marijuana. Any attempt to do so would be a blatant lie.

Edit: Also, that whole pentagon shooter thing... people use a video game causing insanity defense in the courts. Let's make video games illegal now!

Religious books have caused more deaths than we could count. They must make people insane as well. They should be illegal too. The 9/11 hijackers used knives. Let's make knives illegal.
 
What a dipshit. I'm dependent on frozen pizza, are you gonna take that away from me? It's making me fat and clogging my arteries, the stores keep upping their prices but I just can't stop. Someone tries to take my pizza and I'll kill a man.
And what about alcohol? What about the guys who get drunk and beat their wives? What about people who get drunk and kill someone in a car crash? Remember what happened when they made that illegal? Didn't work. Same fucking story here.
 
M

MerryPrankstr

The bottom line for all this Federal nonsense is simple: The government get it's power from the people. It has no inherent right to exist except by consent of the people. It has no right to ban or prohibit anything except by the consent of the the people.

We have forgotten all that our founding fathers fought for 200+ years ago and it's clearly time to get back to basics. The laws on the books for prohibition of cannabis are clearly unconstitutional since they were based on attempts to deport potential immigrants from Mexico back when the law was unlawfully enacted.

Enough of this Federal raping of States and Peoples right. It must be put to rights before it is too late!
 
J

JackTheGrower

We have to get past people are nothing but economic cattle. We are a part of the economic equation and smoking cannabis might cause us to think we have rights outside the ranch, like health care or God Forbid living wages and health care.. Or even Jobs and housing..

What happened to freedom.
 

danut

Member
I tried to tell everyone before the election.

I got really trashed out for doing it.

If he refuses to give clear public support before the election, he will not give any support after the election.

Barak Obama ran a con job on the marijuana community.

The hint of support in exchange for our votes was a lie.
 

Mr. Stinky

Member
Barak Obama ran a con job on the country.

The hint of support in exchange for our votes was a lie.


fixed it for you.:tiphat:

those of you who keep voting for liberal candidates and hating on libertarians like glen beck (he is gettin a little over-excited lately, ill admit), are the ones at fault for these things. our government is pulling harder at the strings than ever. modern liberalism removes all freedoms in pursuit of the lowest common good. keep voting liberal, and you will keep crying about not getting what you want.

on the other hand, if you would like to be free to do what you want, you need to be voting libertarian. you cant talk outta both sides of your mouths tho, if you want personal freedom, then you need to be for personal freedom in all things. you cant come on here and cry to mommy about not being "free to smoke if i want to", then go to the next thread and cry about how the government should "GIVE" you health insurance or money when your un-employed, or anything else. its either "i want personal freedom for everyone", or "i want the government to coddle me". there is no middle ground there. personal freedom is the ability for everyone to choose their own path in life, and the consequences that come with it, good or bad. this notion that we should be some utopian society where everyone pays for everyone elses shit is absolutely impossible, and dozens of other countries have shown that as fact. the US is the best at everything, and theres a reason for that. nothing that our government is doing today would be approved by any of our founding fathers. nothing

"in a democracy , you get the government you deserve". and we sure got it...right in the ass.
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran
What a dipshit. I'm dependent on frozen pizza, are you gonna take that away from me? It's making me fat and clogging my arteries, the stores keep upping their prices but I just can't stop. Someone tries to take my pizza and I'll kill a man.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:
hahahahahhahahahahahha
 

BiG H3rB Tr3E

"No problem can be solved from the same level of c
Veteran
fixed it for you.:tiphat:

those of you who keep voting for liberal candidates and hating on libertarians like glen beck (he is gettin a little over-excited lately, ill admit), are the ones at fault for these things. our government is pulling harder at the strings than ever. modern liberalism removes all freedoms in pursuit of the lowest common good. keep voting liberal, and you will keep crying about not getting what you want.

on the other hand, if you would like to be free to do what you want, you need to be voting libertarian.



glenn beck makes some good points about country first, small goverment, states right, etc. etc. etc.

but then when he starts going on about health care death squads and scribbling on his black board of craziness...is when I can no longer take what he says seriously. i mean shit gleenn beck is like the bipolar schizo who sits on my block yelling at traffic, i mean most the time hes making legitimate points. the rest of the time hes smearing shit on walls and urinating on squirrells.....
 

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