The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

jidoka · Sep 12, 2018

Basically:
1) get it reasonably balanced
2) feed it hard enough so that the top of the plant does not rob mobile nutes from the bottom/insides. But not so hard that the bottoms start accumulating more than 15% than the tops...cause that will eventually fuck up the balance

Then go work on environment

growingcrazy · Sep 13, 2018

jidoka said:
IMO, a) get Mg down to about 25 b) get Ca above K and c) flip flop Fe and Mn

As is you will end up chasing N and will have a Ca problem whether it shows up or not

You will also have mobile elements short in the lower leaf...bug and mold problems. You will need higher EC to fix that

At least in my experience

I would trust what this guy has to say.

Im running a 100-160-140-150-45-65 (NPKCaMgS) currently on everything in every system. Micros are B=.4 Mn=2 Zn=1.2 Cu=.6 Mo=.2 Fe=3 Id run more N if I were using something aside from amino's for N, but not necessary with that route. With salts N would be in the 150 range. The base mix shows a ~1.5 EC and I'll run it up as high as ~2.8 or so.

I am liking the Biomin Ca + Mn foliars...

5gr biomin and .125 gr Mn sulfate per gallon = 60N 200Ca 10 Mn

You came to that flip flop of Fe:Mn from doing tissue testing? Is that something you see only with coco?

growingcrazy · Sep 13, 2018

bsgospel said:
I've got some classic Globeville soil I'd like to test for arsenic and cadmium. Just as a point of interest first, then we're going to fix up this guy's yard. Think Logan or Spectrum has a package for such elements? If there are any traces they would be about one hundred years old and a few miles from the offending smelter.

Edit: I've found on both Spectrum's and Midwest Lab's sites that they do testing for Ar and Cd- but in fertilizers. More browsing on testing in soils....

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090401183822.htm From 2009. Wonder where it stands a decade out from that finding...

Did you find someone to do your testing?

hyposomniac said:
I thought I read somewhere that the soil sample is pulverized as part of the testing process. True or false?
There's a fair bit of small broken perlite particles after sifting. Surely pulverizing them would skew things?

I sifted 120grams, it dried to 92g, topped off to 100g. Sending 100g samples of peat mix, is that a thing??
Thanks

They lab should grind the sample.

Since You mention this...I have been sending samples without aeration recently. I'll build a balanced mix and then only add the aeration before potting.

jidoka · Sep 13, 2018

growingcrazy said:
You came to that flip flop of Fe:Mn from doing tissue testing? Is that something you see only with coco?

You really want me to be honest. The biggest reason I tried it is cause SN hammers the point. After watching thing after thing he said work out I thought fuck quit being a stubborn asshole and try it.

On top of that I have gotten to talk to to guys that get hundreds of sap analysis reports. No science besides all of those observations but it appears Mn regulates K uptake. Up or down. Take that for what you think it is worth.

It is definitely involved in enzymes that keep plants healthy

Take a look at all of the pics on this site where people ask is this Mg and a million dumb fucks say CalMag bro. 95% of those are Mn and P IMO. Then again why would anyone listen to me

Some sacred cows are hard to slaughter...but they always make the tastiest burgers

Charles Dankens · Sep 13, 2018

jidoka said:
So the EC and the nitrate are messing with me. I don’t see how it got that high given your ingredients. Those salts are scewing your test and suppressing your microbes

Do you have time to get a test on the soluble? Contact custom hydro and get a sample bottle and paperwork for the test above. But to get the sample grab a gt of that soil. Water it to your normal level. 1/2 an hr later water it with enough distilled water to fill the bottle

Your grow is running on those soluble salts. This should tell us why the disease

Hey Jidoka,

Here is the report from the sample I sent in for solubles. Really appreciate your take on it. Also interested in other perspectives.

Here again is the soil test this solution was taken from. It did get some rainfall before I was able to take a sample.

jidoka · Sep 13, 2018

So, how much gypsum did you put in that soil?

Charles Dankens · Sep 13, 2018

The sample was drawn from a ~30 gal can. In March or April I added about 200 gm gypsum, 200 gram calcium carbonate, 100gram wollastonite .

jidoka · Sep 13, 2018

Compost? You gotta have some crazy microbes goin on...how hot did it get?

Charles Dankens · Sep 13, 2018

jidoka said:
Compost? You gotta have some crazy microbes goin on...how hot did it get?

I has been amended with compost. I have a couple worm bins and I added no more than a couple quarts and I've used a few quarts of compost from local farms. I went easy on compost because of potential K issues. By temp do you mean compost temps? I don't know that info at all. I don't temp my bins. My farmer buds use mechanized windrow techniques for theirs.

If you mean environmental temp readings where bins are stored its been hot and wet AF.

Charles Dankens · Sep 14, 2018

Jidoka if you have time could you give a brief explanation of what you observe in the data that gives rise to your follow up questions? I am not making any sense at all of this data so even basic observations and simple suggestions would be instructive.

I'm about to pot up and any improvements I could make to head off mold or mite pressure and improve potency would be fantastic.

Thanks for the support.

growingcrazy · Sep 14, 2018

jidoka said:
You really want me to be honest. The biggest reason I tried it is cause SN hammers the point. After watching thing after thing he said work out I thought fuck quit being a stubborn asshole and try it.

On top of that I have gotten to talk to to guys that get hundreds of sap analysis reports. No science besides all of those observations but it appears Mn regulates K uptake. Up or down. Take that for what you think it is worth.

It is definitely involved in enzymes that keep plants healthy

Take a look at all of the pics on this site where people ask is this Mg and a million dumb fucks say CalMag bro. 95% of those are Mn and P IMO. Then again why would anyone listen to me

Some sacred cows are hard to slaughter...but they always make the tastiest burgers

Got it. 100% agree.

Mn inhibits K uptake and contributes to more availability to Ca uptake. I started spraying the Mn foliars because of Snickels comments on Mn.

As stated numerous times... P is short in almost every nutrition program... If you aren't concentrating on it, your most likely behind.

slownickel · Sep 14, 2018

growingcrazy said:
Got it. 100% agree.

Mn inhibits K uptake and contributes to more availability to Ca uptake. I started spraying the Mn foliars because of Snickels comments on Mn.

As stated numerous times... P is short in almost every nutrition program... If you aren't concentrating on it, your most likely behind.

Without Mn you can't get K uptake. They work synergistic-ally. One can also lower the toxicity of the other. Uptake of one without the other is limited.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/42935378?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

bsgospel · Sep 15, 2018

growingcrazy said:
Did you find someone to do your testing?

Gosh I haven't even had time to go out and grab a sample. I suspect it's as simple as calling any of the labs mentioned around here and asking for a heavy metal analysis. Weird that I don't see a package on their sites for such a thing in soil but they do it for fertilizers.

And truthfully, I'm not sure I would find much. I'm just fascinated by Globeville and smelters. It's a prime example of how an environmental protection standard should deter bogus activities and protect people. That's a stretch of land where you're not allowed to put schools or daycare's. If I had kids, I wouldn't be living in Globeville- and it's good that we know about the potential harm.

Pédetoddy · Sep 15, 2018

My guerrilla soil analysis.

jidoka · Sep 15, 2018

Charles Dankens said:
Jidoka if you have time could you give a brief explanation of what you observe in the data that gives rise to your follow up questions? I am not making any sense at all of this data so even basic observations and simple suggestions would be instructive.

I'm about to pot up and any improvements I could make to head off mold or mite pressure and improve potency would be fantastic.

Thanks for the support.

In a way it is working exactly like it should. You had more cations in there than the Cec could deal with. Those are leaching out as evidenced by the EC of the runoff.

On top of that Ca is the main thing leaching which was the main excess...when SN gave you %s he use aa8.2 for Ca, there was more on top of that.

Your runoff also has some alkalinity to it. So you are pushing some carbs/bicarbs out along with soluble stuff (sulfates)

I don’t have enough experience to predict what will happen with any certainty.

What I would watch is for shortages of k or mg as they will leach also and you didn’t have a bunch to begin with. I would monitor pH cause it could drop, that could be a warning for the mg/k deal

jidoka · Sep 15, 2018

If I were going to make a peat based soil I would:
1) put the mix together with zero amendments and measure the pH
2) add Ca carbonate and/or silicate until pH gets to 6. Or just cheat those steps and use sunshine 4 or promix
3) get a soil test
4) get my P with bone meal or super triple or something fairly soluble you are comfortable with
5) use gypsum for the rest of your Ca
6) I like to leave me self room to feed N
7) don’t forget micros

That’s how I would do it

jidoka · Sep 15, 2018

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast-episode-31

Giant pumpkin growers know how to sneak some solubles in the program

bsgospel · Sep 15, 2018

Just got some aphids from sunshine mix. I'd steer clear for the season. Pro mix or nutrimix, for sure. The nutrimix is just one grade of peat but it makes it light and breathable.

Charles Dankens · Sep 16, 2018

jidoka said:
In a way it is working exactly like it should. You had more cations in there than the Cec could deal with. Those are leaching out as evidenced by the EC of the runoff.

On top of that Ca is the main thing leaching which was the main excess...when SN gave you %s he use aa8.2 for Ca, there was more on top of that.

Your runoff also has some alkalinity to it. So you are pushing some carbs/bicarbs out along with soluble stuff (sulfates)

I don’t have enough experience to predict what will happen with any certainty.

What I would watch is for shortages of k or mg as they will leach also and you didn’t have a bunch to begin with. I would monitor pH cause it could drop, that could be a warning for the mg/k deal

Thank you bro.

I'll post up a couple pics of how things work out. Does it make sense to tweak any of the micro numbers to battle pest pressure? Also am I good to go water only or would some top dressing make sense?
Grateful for the expertise, thanks again

jidoka · Sep 16, 2018

I would start water only and watch. I will look at micros tomorrow

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