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Old 09-25-2018, 05:16 PM #81
PaulieWaulie
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Not sure if you are doing this, but for experimenting tracking purposes of fine tuning your recipe you should go by per cubic foot, and have exact inputs. I have a note on my computer for each soil mix I make, so I can see exactly what went into it. Keep us posted when you get started, and or make a thread for the grow.
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:17 AM #82
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Well not in cf but in L is what I do.


The recipes I got were all in cf, obviously. A cubic foot is around 28 liter.


I made my base mix with that in mind and aimed at roughly 20 liter per part, leaving me at roughly 60 liters (slightly below) of the base mix.


Which is roughly equivalent to 2 cf (~56 liters).


The amendment lists called for half a cup of kelp etc. per cubic foot.
Times two, I should have added 1 cup of each amendment to my base mix.


With my previous experiences with the same recipes, I had a feeling that it was a bit low on nutrients and have experimented with upping the amendments in my second batch a year or so ago.


So this time I went with 1 1/2 to 2 cups per amendment per ~2 cf of base mix.


My reasoning was that to me it looked like the plants all got hungry for nutrients and slightly deficient towards the middle/end of flower. Since I only have 5 gallon pots, I figured the nutrients just got used up too fast.

Which is why I upped the amendments this time around. The only drawback is me running a risk of burning the plants but I believe this will be offset by the soil mix having 2-4 weeks to cook this time and the worms I added right after mixing (last two batches I didn't have more than 1-2 weeks to let it cook each time and only added worms once the plants were in their flowering pots).


I will keep you updated and maybe start a new post or just turn this into a journal, let's see.
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:31 AM #83
HBF
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Yeah I totally understand about sometimes a post goes up and for some reason, it just never goes anywhere.

On your next round of soil, I think you're supposed to cut out some of that oyster shell and lime, that's your calcium as well as the Carbonate associated with the Calcium and Magnesium Carbonates of the dolomite lime.

If you don't put that in next round it's that much more you won't be overdosing the plants with calcium.

If you cut the dolomite completely,
in the next batch,

figure out your equivalent magnesium in Epsom's Salt.

What'll happen is you also, won't have to haul downward, with nearly so many ppm pH down,

so at one time,
you'll save yourself those extra ppm in Calcium,

as Carbonate, THE heavy-hauler of pH rising,

and you'll lose the magnesium carbonate ppm
associated with the Dolomite -

which,

of course you'll just supplement a little Epsom's Salt
with your watering..
and return that Magnesium you were gonna lose,
without the addition of the carbonate associated with it,
in the dolomite.

You'll ALSO be removing those higher intensity ppm,
from having to add more pH down.

I once again forgot to subscribe so when I came back by the computer I checked my posts and I saw Paulie said somethin so I came to read, and you had replied.

I guess you've already thought of what I said, but it's already mixed now..

Anyway that's one anonymous internet fake's take on things, I hope you can find yourself a way to go around all that extra calcium and carbonate in your mix & water.




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Originally Posted by bigbadbiddy View Post
Peace HBF and thanks for the feedback.


I had done a previous post a year or so ago, asking for people to help me find the right RO system but didn't get much feedback.


Gonna get this thing rolling again for now with the tap water.


As far as I know it is just very heavy in Calcium and otherwise fine.




I looked at my soil bin yesterday and was a bit distraught because all the worms I had put in after mixing had tried to flee the medium. Clumped up in little balls in the corners of the tarp I put on top to prevent just that (and from other stuff to get into the soil).


I first thought I had somehow messed up the soil mix again but then dug into the soil and realized it was way too dry...
Simply hadn't watered it enough after mixing (guess my back was hurting/too tired lol).


So anyway, I watered the soil good and kicked all the worms back in and haven't seen one since. A few of the worms had also (pre watering again) dug deeper into the few areas that were wet enough.
Now that I thoroughly watered a second time, the worms seem to be off to do their important jobs.


I expect some mycelium buildup today or tomorrow.



End of the week or next I will pop the seeds for the next round.


I was selected for some new testers from MRN but alas they haven't arrived yet.


Pending their arrival, the strains for the coming grow are:
- Karma Squad Crumbled Lime
- Karma Squad King Mamba


If the testers get here in time, they will be the third strain. If they don't, I am debating between my 20 year old Nirvana PurePowerPlant seeds, Shit from MRN, Zamaldelica from Ace or Blueberry or SweetSkunk from PeakseedsBC.




The soil mix I ended up with:


Roughly 1/1/1 (~20L each) mix of:
- Peat moss
- EWC
- Perlite


Amended with 1 1/2 to 2 cups each of:
- Krill meal
- Kelp meal
- Neemcake
- Basalt
- Bentonite
- Lavameal
- Mycos on Vermiculite
- Oyster Shell flour
- Dolomite lime




Seeds will be popped in jiffy plugs, then transferred to 1 gallon veg pots in the above soil mix, vegging under 400w MH.


Will top them often and early this time around as I previously only topped once or twice and the plants never filled in the growspace/canopy completely. Always grew too tall with big bud sites at the top and lots of larf at the bottom (even after defoliating before and during flower).


So this time I will likely top them first time when they are a week or two in their veg pots and then top again several times.
I expect about a month or two of veg time (in the past I have vegged 2 months each time without topping/training enough, was just getting the hang of it and experimenting with it, had never done it before).



They will then go into 5 gallon pots in flower under 630 and 315 w CMH (the 630 being more red and the 315 more blue spectrum).


I might install a trellis netting and the blumats for the first time this flower or go with bamboo sticks and plant ties again while handwatering, as I did in the past.




Will keep you all updated, for now the soil cooks and the worms are working and we wait for the testers to arrive.


Cheers for everyone, their help and feedback.


All the best


BBB
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:49 AM #84
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Hey HBF, thanks for the feedback!


Shit that was exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for during the last year or so xD


I will get a water analysis from the municipality, post the actual values here and then maybe we can look how to adjust the soil recipe for next time.



Alas, as you said, it's already mixed and cooking now. But I can still adjust the values through cutting back/out on dolomite lime and oyster shell flour when I re-amend through topdressing in between rounds.


So once I get the water analysis, through your help, I will maybe finally be able to adjust the soil mix to my water and get better results from it.


I'm just too unfamiliar and lack the basis in a lot of fields to figure out myself what nutrients I should better reduce or increase based on my individual environment (in which the water plays a massive role).


Particularly what you said about Calcium and carbonates, reducing them if the water is high in those and then giving the soil back what it lacks due to the reduction with epsom salts is something that rings true with me.
I have been trying to experiment with it the 2nd batch I made but was really worried about messing up the soil by adding too much epsom salts (I heard you gotta be real careful with those and not overdo it).
Also, everything was skewed/distorted through the buckwheat hulls.


So yeah, I think this thing is really going in the right direction.


Buckwheat hulls eliminated, now checking how the plants deal with the upped amendments and next step is getting the water analysis and adjust the soil mix to it and I am confident results will be much improved.


Thank you all you guys!
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:28 AM #85
HBF
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Something else that will make the plants grow better, - and I'm not saying do this ok, I'm telling you people do this - when you're trying to get em to fill out,

use a method of Auxin control - that's what topping is, are you familiar with Auxin distribution being why things get more bushy when you pinch the tops?

Auxin is the growth hormone that takes care of a lot of the size control of the plant, among the various limbs. You might already know this so maybe I'm beating a dead horse so.. I'll try to say enough if you don't know you can look around for some threads and have an idea what you're talking about,

Auxin is a kinda 'the' main everyday growth hormone in plants. Like - all green higher plants ok?

And the plant has a kinda ... kinda complex way of hauling it around inside itself,

and also, how it makes it, inside of itself, is a function, of where the limb is, on the plant.

The higher and more central the stem, the more the plant
makes those growing nodes, manufacture a supply of growth hormone. ok?

All trees, bushes, shrubs, grasses, all green plants, derive their physical natural shape in the wild, by manipulating the manufacture, inside themselves, of Auxin.

Hey - look up apical dominance ok? This is the mechanism by which plants, adjust their shape, using Auxin.

Auxin goes all over the plant but you're gonna manipulate the limbs.

You lay down tips - tips of all limbs are called 'meristems' and the very highest ones are the 'dominant meristems'.

There is a term for all I'm telling you and it's called 'low stress training.'

There are, I'm sure, loads of threads you can pull up about it and what you're sorta trying to get sorted,

is that the plants can tell - internally of themselves, how high, in absolute height, each of it's various parts are, because of the pressure, of the water in them. Ok?

The pot plant is a wind pollenated plant ok? and that means, that... in it's little one season life span,

it tries to get,

a central,
big,
meristem,

growing tip,

up higher than all the rest - and just like - I do mean JUST like a PINE tree,

it's seeking to get one dominant spike, as high up into space around it as it can, so it can catch pollen, and make a buncha little baby cannabises. Ok?

And to do this the plant has a plan. Sacrifice everybody's soul. size, vivacity in growth,

to the growth of this or these, dominant meristems.

What low stress training is,
is fooling the plant,
so it thinks it got knocked over,
by a bank in a ditch getting cut out from rain, or buffalos, or bulldozers, or just falling over on it's side cause the dirt was loose (so to speak you see where I'm goin here, the plant thinks, it fell over and that it's chance for breeding is dramatically reduced)

So what it does, is it feels for what's called 'turgor' - water pressure - and it starts telling every single growing node on the plant, to make as much growth hormone as it can,

until the plant senses one of these or more - you're gonna milk this out be ensuring there's first 5 or 6, then a dozen, then several dozen, then if the plants get large, hundreds of the growing nodes of the plants, manufacture the maximum growth hormone, the plant can tell it to manufacture,

as if it's racing to get up into the sky and get pollenated
to save the plant's life.

Here's what the deal is.
The plant can tell the difference in height of about two inches: 4 cm.

Everything that gets 2" above the rest of the plant, the other growing sites,

is gonna tell those sites, stop producing growth hormone. We've got to feed this main spike, we're gonna thrust up into the sky, the majority of our food and energy and as this bud site or really, these budding sites, these 'growing nodes' get higher and higher,

they turn the rest of the plant off,
more and more.

So what you do is you get a little chunk of fence and put around it like a cylinder, and as this plant grows you go by every day, allllllll during growth before flower,

and even after flower starts,

and you lay these limbs down, till to the best of your ability in the time you've got,

the very tip
of every limb on that plant,
is pointed toward the ground,

and ever node near the trunk of the plant that you can make be the HIGHEST on that plant, as many inches above that growing tip,
as you can get and you don't do this once, twice, or three times.

You do this every _blanking_day, for as long as you can bear the apparent failure of yourself to make that plant, stop re-orientating those tips,
and trying to send the ENDS
up in the sky.

This
inverts
the growth hormone schematic, in the plant,

and the plant, will IMMEDIATELY
not soon, IMMEDIATELY
start getting bushy all over in a way you haven't ever seen yet.

and you just keep on, and keep on, and.. ok can I say it again? KeeP ON

and the day you give up,
and let any growing node
on that PLANT,
get 2" above another node on that plant,

it's gonna tell the ones getting higher, to get more growth
and the ones getting lower, to get less and less,

and this is gonna reduce your yield by anywhere from about 12, to 15%.

When the plant is trained like this you become very intimately connected, with what it's doing, to make itself grow.

It doesn't want to gain a lot of weight all over, it wants to get that one, or two, or 8 spikes, up into the sky to catch pollen.

This is auxin manipulation,
and when plants do it they all do it in a scheme called 'apical dominance'

and that means the tip
predominates, and leads growth
by manufacturing growth hormone in itself,
by sending it back down the plant some,
and by telling the other growing nodes,
not to make growth hormone.

Lots of leaves down in the grass where the dew is just -evolutionarily - makes the plant inviting to grazing critters, and a target for fungus and bacteria and all this so it has an idea,

avoid that fruitless sh** and put those flowering sites up high in the sky.

Your job, is to lie to that plant, like a machine.
Cause I guarantee you that plant's gonna try to re-assert ''apical dominance,''
like a machine.

Because it is a machine of course in lotsa ways,

so don't think, like.. maybe since the plant wants to keep undoing,
what I'm doing to it, i'm doing it wrong.

Uh, no. Youjust keep on laying it down everywhere over, and over, and this becomes a skill to lay the limbs out like a wagon wheel so they don't crowd, and you can get every single one, as close to the same height, or inverted tip down, for the longer limbs,
as you can,
all along their lengths.

When you do this
you avoid a well known slight slowdown in the plant's growth,
as it repairs and seals, all those broken cells you create, when you pinch off those tips.

This disrupts the vascular feeds, all this, the plant has to take a break from all the partying and dancing, and go get a band-aid and put that on all those cells you kill so the cooties don't kill it.

Laying them over like I told ya, avoids this slowdown, it eliminates it,

and the growth hormone changes you create, are more effective because you keep doing it over, and over,

and the plant, keeps telling every single little bud all up and down it's limbs that

'we've fallen over again,
you're on top,
you're elected to shoot for the sky'
and EVERY one

that perceives itself or is perceived by the plant overall

to be at the tips of limbs,
and much more importantly, higher than other nodes on that limb OR OTHER LIMBS,

will be told, ''start manufacturing ALL the GROWTH hormone you CAN, we've got to RACE to the sky with these (a big plant? 300 growing nodes,)

and the plant does quite a bit better at putting on weight.


People nearly always stop laying the plants down, because it's just so much hassle to them. I don't ever stop and the growth difference is considerable.

Never stopping
laying them down,
low stress training them,
is a powerful thing and many years ago on another website some people actually spent probably a couple of years, figuring all this out about pot, and they had many people, try

topping,

knuckling, breaking limbs to make them more level, also called 'hurd crushing' because the central sorta crispy vascular area in the plants' stems are called the 'hurd' I dunno if you've ever heard of that before,

they tried tying the plants to a flat piece of fence a few inches above the ground (called screen of greening or 's.c.r.o.g.g.i.n.g.' which is still pretty popular with some folks

and they tried low stress training in various modes.

The mode that produced the most weed was low stress training, to almost the day you harvest the plants,
starting when they are very young.

The younger you start training them the better, too, because you set this hormonal exploit into action earlier
so the plants start branching more - earlier
and they just branch,
branch,
and RE BRaNCH like - a machine.

And your job is to be like ''Oh, no, mufuses, this is NOT gonna be happening, lay down, lay down, lay down..."

Like.. a machine.
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Old 09-26-2018, 12:24 PM #86
HBF
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Low Stress Training tends to take up so much time, if you don't do it in a way that makes it easy, BBB, that people can't waste time doing it cause they have lives.

One of the best ways I ever discovered was to stand a cylinder of fence wire of some kind around the plants and spoke those limbs out.

It's a process where you gradually train the plant ok? It's not one time, it's not one time lay them out in a configuration and that never changes, either.

Because the plant squirms around and pot's REAL well known for the fanatical - ok it's really just 'machine like' energy it puts into 'sun seeking.' Light seeking.

The plants are gonna be squirming around all the time, crossing up your plans, and generally messing up what could be a wonderful relationship where you say ''do this'' and they do it, and never argue. Uh nO that's not the plan, when they're trying to get bred or die, in nature. Those things would turn a doorknob and go outside to more light, if they could.

There's something I need to tell you and all you guys reading this, this is as important as the first part.

There are multiple ways to stop yourself from splitting limbs.

The main thing to know is that if you break one - you will, don't worry, don't trip -

get a piece of limb or a pencil and lay it along the break, and splint it.

And hey - you kinda need to do this, ... kinda right away, ok?

Like - when you go to them to sorta feel, and push, and pull and see who will accept being pushed where,

the limbs of pot are kinda legendary for just - splitting and breaking off.

When it breaks, the tricks, kids, the tricks - stop right then, put your eye on the broken spot, turn around and pick up a couple of just- literally little pencil size limbs about 8 inches or whatever long - so you can handle it - down to three or four inches for little small limbs, you'll get it,

don't keep going, splint it right then, and I generally find, that it's a lot better splint, if you use two little splints beside the break, and tape that part straight again.

If you let them wilt over it's not... quite so cool.

There is a way to insulate yourself from a lot of this breakage and that's to simply wrap the joint where the limb meets the main plant, before you really move it much.

Pot plants are a hardy plant, ok? And they have this thing, where if something brushes one of it's limbs, the wrong way, it'll just snap right off.

And it's like aw man, you gotta be sh**n me. . . you feel like a loser, you can't believe, all this, sorta ''maybe if I guilt trip myself about this,'' ya know,

hey - I've been splinting plants since I was a little boy, legal plants, all kinds of stuff, my folks had a plant shop awhile, don't EvEn TRIp... don't tell yourself, ''Oh if I really loved,''

"Oh, if I was more careful,"

"Oh, if I'd never have ___________" (let the dog in, let the cat in, let the D.E.A. in, let the kids in, let the plant fall, you name it)

Don't even bother with this. Not at all. As a matter of fact, one of the kinda.. I dunno, fearless things that comes from handling a lotta plants,

is that every time you have to go move some, get some tape, and go outside in the yard and pick up several - 6, 8 little sticks,

so if you're laying down for instance in my back yard right now 11 plants, and they're all a few feet across, and several feet high - I"m never surprised, if one, or two, - sometimes, I'll just f*** up or the wife will come out and give em a good spin and break a couple at once.

Some tape, and a few splints, and having somebody tell you, * the moment you sense you made the limb break, and you verify yea, a little skinny limb broke over - don't tell yourself that limb's skinny, because later on it's gonna make you from a quarter, to a half ounce of weed.

Don't say to yourself, ''Well, if I'd have been more disciplined, I'm just gonna pull it off. I'll make myself sorry and ashamed, yada yada till I'm perfect,'' because pot limbs break.

A lot, if you handle the pot a lot.

When I get through with this 11 I have in the yard this season, I expect to have probably 10 splints, and several plants will have two or three, and some plants, will have none.

But when you keep every limb, and you keep every growing node, and you invert the Auxing scheme, defying this natural plan to not put ANY weight not necessary into ANY parts that don't go in the sky and get pollenated,

those plants are gonna have about - roughly, 12, 15% more dense, well formed and potent - bud, than if I'd allowed them to stand up.

What happens is the growth hormone surging through the plant, makes even the little tiny buds ALL along all those middle and lower limbs, fill out much more - and they get dense and adult looking, not larf not suckers, they become completely adult and potent, heavily resinated buds, JUST like the ONES on GROWING TIPS out at the END,

and you harvest all these. You never harm the plant, once, in a very serious way, and you encourage it to make not scores - not dozens, but HUNDREDS of little and medium buds,

on plants you never DREAMED could have 200, 250, 300 budding sites on it: but it will.

Ah - what I started this post to say.

One of the greatest tricks to manipulating pot plants, is to learn to wrap the point where the limb joins the trunk, BEFORE
you bend the tip of the limb down.

And it's not very long, AT all before you see - oH, this isn't very hard at all. I'm about to touch this limb and just from looking at how it joins the main trunk, or secondary limb, and I can see that all I need to do, is wrap some tape around where it joins the stalk, so when I pull (this way)

it doesn't stress it, down (here where it joins the larger.

Tape it so that joint where it joins another limb, NEVER takes the pull, just pull off a piece of tape from the roll and secure it. Duct tape is almost perfect for this, tear it in half down the middle so you have 2" wide strips, and just wrap the adjoining butt, and stalk of the limb it grows from,

and the way you know how much is by grabbing the one you're gonna bend, a "couple" of inches, a few centimeters, from where it joins the bigger one,

and kinda move the limb around and see how far from the point where they join,
you need to put tape around the two,
so you can move the body of the limb all around.

When you are laying them all down, they all make new growth, from every single node, on that plant, so when you break one at the main connection a lotta times you gotta be careful of small growth coming out of where you're gonna tape.

Try to keep all the growth you can because when you lay them over there's not gonna be a single bud on that plant anywhere that isn't potent like it's a tip top branch's best bud.

This is a GREAT thing about this.

ALL the bud on that plant, and e.v.e.r.y. one you somehow, obsessively contrive to save,

will wind up making potent, visually adult, mature looking, buds. They'll be small, about the size of a quarter, a nickel American, but not underdeveloped, and wispy. Not at all.

So be aware it's these hundreds of growing nodes you normally strip back, kill off - that are each one gonna make you a bud from the size of a quarter, to the size of a 50 cent piece, to the size of a computer mouse.
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Old 09-26-2018, 12:32 PM #87
HBF
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Yeah 3B don't top dress with any more calcium if you find out you're already stickin em with hundreds, and hundreds of ppm Calcium Carbonate from the tap or the well.

Peace
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Old 09-26-2018, 01:37 PM #88
bigbadbiddy
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This is friggin awesome man, thanks so much for taking the time to write all that!


I am familiar with some of the stuff, like low stress training etc., and have also been trying my hand at it already. But I was definitely not familiar with the science behind it, auxins etc. just had a rough idea and now have a much more clearer picture thanks to you!


Got the water analysis already by the way. Measurements are a bit different unfortunately as the Euros usually measure differently than in the US.


Here it goes:


PH 7.4-7.6
Electro conductivity (measured in S/cm, I just did a conversion to ppm and it is equivalent to roughly 415-460 ppm) 648-717
Acid capacity (mol/m) 4.5-5.2
Base capacity (mol/m) 0.16-0.45
Free carbonic acid/carbon dioxide (g/m) 7.5-18.9
Sum of alkaline earths (mol/m) 2.98-3.45
"hardness" (dH) 16.7-19.4
Calcium ions (mol/m) 2.34-2.72
Magnesium ions (mol/m) 0.65-0.75
Natrium/Sodium ions (mol/m) 0.65-0.87
Potassium ions (mol/m) 0.05-0.08
Chloride ions (mol/m) 0.9-1.1
Nitrate ions (mol/m) 0.02-0.05
Sulfate ions (mol/m) 0.7-0.8
Phosphorous compounds (g/m) 0.02-0.25
Silicon compounds (g/m) 6.6-9.2
O (g/m) 9.5-11
Total organic carbon (g/m) 0.7-1.5




Any feedback appreciated!
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:23 PM #89
HBF
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I see your ec was in -Siemens, that's a much better total ppm.

I didn't catch that at first.

The numbers though aren't extreme,
I see you're right about the Calcium predominating, when you convert it, the Calcium really is several times more.

The differing weights for magnesium vs calcium of 24 vs 40 are a ratio of 1.6 so that multiplies the Calcium that much more.

I see the hardness is 18 Nothing really unusual it's just hard water.

I guess it's a far fetch to believe someone nearby might have some kind of big catchment barrel of rain water, you could get a few gallons or liters to help till you figure something out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbiddy View Post
This is friggin awesome man, thanks so much for taking the time to write all that!


I am familiar with some of the stuff, like low stress training etc., and have also been trying my hand at it already. But I was definitely not familiar with the science behind it, auxins etc. just had a rough idea and now have a much more clearer picture thanks to you!


Got the water analysis already by the way. Measurements are a bit different unfortunately as the Euros usually measure differently than in the US.


Here it goes:


PH 7.4-7.6
Electro conductivity (measured in S/cm, I just did a conversion to ppm and it is equivalent to roughly 415-460 ppm) 648-717
Acid capacity (mol/m) 4.5-5.2
Base capacity (mol/m) 0.16-0.45
Free carbonic acid/carbon dioxide (g/m) 7.5-18.9
Sum of alkaline earths (mol/m) 2.98-3.45
"hardness" (dH) 16.7-19.4
Calcium ions (mol/m) 2.34-2.72
Magnesium ions (mol/m) 0.65-0.75
Natrium/Sodium ions (mol/m) 0.65-0.87
Potassium ions (mol/m) 0.05-0.08
Chloride ions (mol/m) 0.9-1.1
Nitrate ions (mol/m) 0.02-0.05
Sulfate ions (mol/m) 0.7-0.8
Phosphorous compounds (g/m) 0.02-0.25
Silicon compounds (g/m) 6.6-9.2
O (g/m) 9.5-11
Total organic carbon (g/m) 0.7-1.5




Any feedback appreciated!
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Old 09-27-2018, 08:32 AM #90
bigbadbiddy
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Unfortunately not ... I could set up a rain res myself but would have trouble getting it to the grow room. Not really an option unfortunately. Plus the rain is reportedly also not great around here due to so much pollution from industry.


The gal I got the water analysis from also confirmed to me that the values can vary more than what it says on the water analysis due to hourly variances (not daily, hourly). The reason being that the water apparently is a mix of 3 sources and its composition can change hourly.


This apparently goes in both directions regarding ppm. I have had readings of 300ppm as well as 700 ppm, as I mentioned before.
PH was another thing I could measure and here there is close to no variance as far as I have observed. PH is always slightly above 7.


Unfortunately, the fact that ppm vary so massively (up to ~200ppm +/- on top of the range the water analysis mentions), also means that the other values, for example for Calcium, will vary just as much, doesn't it?
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