The Green New Deal

packerfan79 · Feb 25, 2019

Mick said:
LOL, you crack me up PF. As usual your post is full of smoke and mirrors, lies and distortions. No need to look as far as China or India, as the people in the conservative party running Australia are pretty much all climate change deniers and want to build more coal fired power stations as well as start the biggest coal mine in the Australia and one of the biggest in the world, Ardani. I believe your president is on record as being a denier too. Our bat-shit crazy prime minister recently brought in a lump of coal to parliament and proceeded to lovingly caress it while extolling its virtues. Whether the Australian conservative government are really deniers or just want to make a buck while the earth burns is anybodies guess.

So, it's ok for China and India to destroy the world?

Got it. I never expected the left to actually address the problem.

By the way it's sarcasm, I am not a war monger. That's the domain of the mainstream Democrats, and their buddy's at General Electric owned MSNBC. Just ask Cannavore, or any other progressive with principles.

Stop being a denier. The western world could eliminate every single carbon atom , and China And India will still keep the coal train going. Until the REAL polluters are held to account, nothing will change.

I am not familiar with Australian politics, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I doubt the conservatives in Australia, truly want climate change.

Here in the U.S. most conservatives believe the climate is changing. We just don't want to destroy the economy, with trillions in deficit spending, and the destruction of a free people.

White Beard · Feb 25, 2019

Mick said:
Imo, we changed from the term “Global Warming” to “Climate Change” in the misguided hope that this would better help the deniers to understand the process. If you come to Australia you will see both Warming and Climate Change at work and it's happening frighteningly fast. Why some people are super connected to, and love the earth, and some just seem to want to watch it burn, is something I've thought about a lot. Best I've come up with is the theory of “The harmony of Opposites”. You need an opposite for something to exist. Example, Up - Down, Space – Matter. If you can imagine for a second that there was no Up, or a Room without Space. Re climate change, it would seem that there's those that love and cherish the earth, and then there's the opposite. I'm probably way off, but it is a cool subject to contemplate. Imo no amount of education is going to change a deniers mind. As an example, many people believe that with education and knowledge racists will see the error of their ways and change their minds, but maybe racists are racist simply because it gives them pleasure, another example of the Harmony of Opposites at work. The politics of Climate Change can seem like a a crazy 21st century schizoid riddle, but maybe the answer is right there in front of us, maybe not.

Heraclitus : “The opposites concordant, and from the discordant comes beautiful harmony, and everything happens according to contention”.

“The same thing are the living and the dead, the awake and the sleeping, the young and the old: these indeed changing are those and those again changing are these”.

“Immortal mortals, mortal immortals, living their death and dying their life”.

“One and the same is the path that goes upward and the path that goes downward”.

Comin’ out, swingin’ Heraclitus...you make a showy entrance, brother, and well done! As you point out, there’s one path, the only question being ‘which way are we going?’

Or as then-vice-President Dan Quayle so eloquently phrased it, “Are we going to move forward, into the future? Or past, into the back?”

packerfan79 · Feb 25, 2019

White Beard said:
Comin’ out, swingin’ Heraclitus...you make a showy entrance, brother, and well done! As you point out, there’s one path, the only question being ‘which way are we going?’

Or as then-vice-President Dan Quayle so eloquently phrased it, “Are we going to move forward, into the future? Or past, into the back?”

Only one way to complete failure, LEFT.

White Beard · Feb 25, 2019

packerfan79 said:
Such humility, such openmindedness. You are so enlightened. It's so humble of you to label everyone who thinks their may be better solutions, as a denier.
Your ridicule of a perfectly reasonable comment says too much about you. You may not notice when you do these things, but everyone else does.

No one is denying the climate is changing.
sorry, PF, but that’s just bullshit: there’s tons o’ folks denying that very thing, loudly and insultingly - and ignorantly - every day, many times a day. If you don’t see it, then that must be the water you swim in.

We just don't see how, bankrupting the nation, is going to change it.
Of course you don’t see it, if you believe the situation can only be dealt with by bankrupting the nation.
That is *NOT* the all-American, level-headed, “can do!” Spirit I was raised with.

Since leaving the Paris climate debacle, the U.S. has cut co2 emissions more than any other country.
Prove it: cite any two items from the public record supporting your baseless assertion re: US reductions in CO2 emissions. Opinion pieces do not count.

If you want to address climate change, let's start with the counties opening new coal power plants. Yeah, you know China and India. If we only have 12 years left, let's get serious. Its time to invade China and India and force them to cut co2 emissions as much as the United States. Without this invasion we will all die in 12 years. Do it now, the world is depending on you.

STOP BEING A DENIER AND START THE WAR TO SAVE THE WORLD.

Haven’t you noticed? The US never invades a country to force them to do things, but to keep them from doing things We invade them to install our puppets to get our things done our way, and then we pay them well while they work their populations to death and revolution for us. And then we invade to suppress the uprisings, or to overthrow our last puppet and install a new one.

This has been true since at least Reconstruction.

White Beard · Feb 25, 2019

packerfan79 said:
Only one way to complete failure, LEFT.

For your sanity, I hope you’re not left-handed

White Beard · Feb 25, 2019

Lester Moore said:
Who mentioned trump?

No-one mentioned camo-clad shambling neckbeards, either - what’s your point?

packerfan79 · Feb 25, 2019

White Beard said:
Haven’t you noticed? The US never invades a country to force them to do things, but to keep them from doing things We invade them to install our puppets to get our things done our way, and then we pay them well while they work their populations to death and revolution for us. And then we invade to suppress the uprisings, or to overthrow our last puppet and install a new one.

This has been true since at least Reconstruction.

Well, White Beard. You said it so no need to ask anymore questions. Lol.

Everyone can stop worrying about everything, White Beard has every answer to every question. Thank God for White Beard, all will be solved by the end of the week.

Elmer Bud · Feb 25, 2019

Lester Moore said:
Well said..this is why I have taught my children to shoot accurately without hesitation. It shouldn’t be to difficult the people leading this shit are afraid of guns. Well maybe not the people leading it but the sheep following them...the gender shit is a joke, why do we support and celebrate mental illness? The one thing I would do differently Rogerw is, if a human with balls walks in the same restroom as my lady or daughter I might not kill him, but he would wake up in the hospital and have to learn how to eat, walk and talk again...

[YOUTUBEIF]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUWitHPtGoQ[/YOUTUBEIF]

Mick · Feb 25, 2019

packerfan79 said:
So, it's ok for China and India to destroy the world?

Got it. I never expected the left to actually address the problem.

By the way it's sarcasm, I am not a war monger. That's the domain of the mainstream Democrats, and their buddy's at General Electric owned MSNBC. Just ask Cannavore, or any other progressive with principles.

Stop being a denier. The western world could eliminate every single carbon atom , and China And India will still keep the coal train going. Until the REAL polluters are held to account, nothing will change.

I am not familiar with Australian politics, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I doubt the conservatives in Australia, truly want climate change.

Here in the U.S. most conservatives believe the climate is changing. We just don't want to destroy the economy, with trillions in deficit spending, and the destruction of a free people.

WTF, where did I say it's ok for China and India to pollute? You do realise that China is the manufacturing hub for the Western World, and that America is its biggest trading partner? It would be interesting to have all the pollution created in China to service the American market added to America's total, and visa versa, and see where that leaves us. Btw, the top 3 polluters in the world are China, America and India. India is not looking good. China is moving towards renewables, but it's probably too little too late imo. Some scientists are now saying we'll be lucky to make it to the next century.
As for me being a denier, that's got to be one of the more bizarre things I've heard and I've heard some crazy stuff in my time. Did that come as a memo from the “Dance as The World Burns Society” to further muddy the waters? You guys go to extreme lengths to make sure nothing positive happens re climate change. For years progressive parties have tried to address climate change, only to be blocked at every turn by fear mongering, lies and misrepresentation of the science.
Cya.

Lester Moore · Feb 25, 2019

White Beard said:
No-one mentioned camo-clad shambling neckbeards, either - what’s your point?

You lost me...not sure what a cameo- clad shambling neckbeard is...sounds interesting.

Lester Moore · Feb 25, 2019

White Beard said:
Hope you’re not depressed by the lack of name-calling....

Nope, I am delighted...usually people start to get angry and name call if they don’t like a position. Instead of a calm discussion. But it is so much easier to put people in boxes so you don’t have to think much about their position or ideas. Like calling someone a denier, racist, sexist etc....

packerfan79 · Feb 25, 2019

Mick said:
WTF, where did I say it's ok for China and India to pollute? You do realise that China is the manufacturing hub for the Western World, and that America is its biggest trading partner? It would be interesting to have all the pollution created in China to service the American market added to America's total, and visa versa, and see where that leaves us. Btw, the top 3 polluters in the world are China, America and India. India is not looking good. China is moving towards renewables, but it's probably too little too late imo. Some scientists are now saying we'll be lucky to make it to the next century.
As for me being a denier, that's got to be one of the more bizarre things I've heard and I've heard some crazy stuff in my time. Did that come as a memo from the “Dance as The World Burns Society” to further muddy the waters? You guys go to extreme lengths to make sure nothing positive happens re climate change. For years progressive parties have tried to address climate change, only to be blocked at every turn by fear mongering, lies and misrepresentation of the science.
Cya.

The United states has reduced co2 emissions more than any other country. We have reduced our co2 emissions equal to all of the European nations combined. We have reduced co2 by almost than 4 times the amount of the next closest nation the UK. On a per capita basis we do emit 2.2 times what China does, but China has 4.3 times the population. Thus China is the world leader in co2 production, with no actual plan, or intention of reducing any co2 emissions for decades. In fact China fully plans on increasing co2 production exponentially for decades.

So, when you say we aren't doing anything to combat climate change, you are not just wrong, but completely wrong. The United States has done more than any country in the world to combat climate change. Even leaving the stupid non-binding hands off China, Paris climate accord, we continue to lead the way on reducing Co2 emissions.

You insinuate that The United States is responsible for Chinas choices in energy production, that's laughable. Why is America responsible for all the ills of climate change, but China gets to fuck us all, remember we are all going to die in 12 years. China won't even be slowing it's increasing Co2 production by the time the world is done. America should be praised for leadership on this issue. Not demeaned for failing to save the world in the face of billions of people who not only don't give a shit, but will continue to not give a shit. You want to be a righteous warrior for the planet, let's talk about the real problem. CHINA.

The world economy runs on cheap China crap. Not just the United States. I am all for buying American, let's bring those jobs back.

As far as co2 production you are right about the top 3. As far as pollution goes The United States isn't even in the top 20. The United States has been actively reducing pollution since the 1970s.

Dr.Young · Feb 25, 2019

Lester Moore · Feb 25, 2019

So if you believe in science/ carbon dating the earth is about 4.543 billion years old...and you think in the tiny minuscule amount of time cars have been around humans can influence weather like hurricanes, floods, temperature etc. hahahaha the climate is changing, it’s a cycle..also, the earth will be here after the humans go extinct...so don’t lose to much sleep worrying about the planet...humans can’t hurt her.
Also, co2 is a fertilizer, why does everyone want to starve the trees and green vegetation?
Maybe I am a bit right of center but as I see it, left= big government, right= limited government. ( although there are a ton of lying politicians that say their right but support big governemnt) and I really don’t like the government...they are my employees and I would love to fire most of them, but dumbass’s keep voting them in.

Mick · Feb 25, 2019

White Beard said:
Comin’ out, swingin’ Heraclitus...you make a showy entrance, brother, and well done! As you point out, there’s one path, the only question being ‘which way are we going?’

Or as then-vice-President Dan Quayle so eloquently phrased it, “Are we going to move forward, into the future? Or past, into the back?”

Heraclitus was a cool cat hey. Reality is so sketchy. A few nights ago I ingested half a gram of Malawi cob and had my personal reality blow apart, in a good way :biggrin:

"Or past, into the back". I've never heard that before and I love it. I really love this Heraclitus quote too. “The unlike is joined together, and from differences results the most beautiful harmony.”
We just need to get there and I have my doubts that capitalism is the answer. It may well be the problem.

White Beard · Feb 25, 2019

Agreed: the mindset that “believes” in capitalism knows very little about it, no more than the usual indoctrination, and rarely thinks about what they ”know”, or they’d know that the wealthy are the takers, and the people who actually *work* are the makers; that they don’t pay taxes so poor people can have free stuff, they instead pay the taxes the wealthy don’t pay so the wealthy can have free stuff.

But when you’ve been indoctrinated your whole life in church, at work, by family, emotionally people can’t let themselves see things like that; it seems safer to stay with the crowd, especially in small communities, even when that keeps not paying off...maybe especially when it doesn’t pay off.

After all, there’s *always* a scapegoat

Lester Moore · Feb 25, 2019

True, capitalism, which is a made up term like the term assault rifle, is so fucked up and oppressive millions of people are trying to immigrate here. Makes total sense to me.the socialists should migrate to a true stirct socialist country and enjoy the fruit and leave this system alone. It’s like joining a pick up basket ball game then throwing the ball down and saying let’s play soccer...um the soccer field is over there dumbass.

Frylock · Feb 25, 2019

White Beard said:
But when you’ve been indoctrinated your whole life in church, at work, by family, emotionally people can’t let themselves see things like that; it seems safer to stay with the crowd, especially in small communities, even when that keeps not paying off...maybe especially when it doesn’t pay off.

This is so true.... being healthily separated from these things can be like walking a tightrope between pools of crocodiles on each side.

Unhealthily separating yourself from them can leave you isolated.

People just recede into their most comfortable setting for the most part, whether they really want to or not.

yesum · Feb 25, 2019

Capitalism is a two edged sword. You get your cut fine. You feel you did not get your fair share, then it cuts you. If people were decent, socialism/communism would be the way to go. It seems they are not so decent right now.

Socialism seems to be a blade that cuts the masses, leaving the small ruling elite in good shape. The Netherlands countries where there used to be only one ethnic group of any size, and quite civilized if naive, are not even doing that great with it. They are not pure socialists either. We will see what third world men/Muslim for the most part do to them now. I do not see it getting better, worse likely. Men where honor killings, suicide bombs, endless civil wars etc. are the norm. Ponzy scheme of course with the predictable end.

St. Phatty · Feb 25, 2019

packerfan79 said:
The United states has reduced co2 emissions more than any other country. We have reduced our co2 emissions equal to all of the European nations combined. We have reduced co2 by almost than 4 times the amount of the next closest nation the UK. On a per capita basis we do emit 2.2 times what China does, but China has 4.3 times the population. Thus China is the world leader in co2 production, with no actual plan, or intention of reducing any co2 emissions for decades. In fact China fully plans on increasing co2 production exponentially for decades.

So, when you say we aren't doing anything to combat climate change, you are not just wrong, but completely wrong. The United States has done more than any country in the world to combat climate change.

Technically, the US isn't combatting climate change.

It's like a wife-beater who beats his wife once a week instead of once a day. The US is simply beating up on the Climate possibly less than it used to.

But it's a False concept, that we CAN "combat Climate Change".

I know the US likes to use concept of "combat" & "war" to describe everything.

REALLY reducing CO2 emissions means a near-complete abandonment of Western technology (which would be OK), AND a dramatic population reduction (e.g. 50%) in societies that produce the most CO2.

No one will ever talk me out of taking a daily hot bath.

Can we talk a woman in colder & chillier Canada (or China) into not heating her family's house ?

Same in the summer - who can we talk into enduring 100+ F degree temperatures, to reduce carbon emissions associated with generating the electricity to generate the Western tech. version of AC ?

The only realistic game is to adapt to the higher CO2 levels.

Look at what happened in California the last 2 years.

They spent about 7 or 9 months being their normal selves, talking about Climate Change.

Then when Climate Change was in their face in the form of serious wildfires, they kind of shut up and focussed on the big problem in front of them.

There are much worse kinds of pollution than CO2.

CO2 is in its own category. It's not really a pollutant. Not like what the US did to the Gulf of Mexico (Deepwater Horizon) or what Japan did to the Pacific (Fukushima.)

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